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A-level panel page valuations by artist/run - thoughts/additions/changes?
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Romita Jr ASM pages (1st run) should be in the $3-5K section.

 

What's considered his first run?

 

ASM 208 - 250, although there are a few fill-in issues by other artists (Weiss = 209; Hall = 219, 222, and 237; McLeod = 220 (originally intended for an issue of MTU; Kupperberg = 221)

 

Wonderful stories by Roger Stern

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Romita Jr ASM pages (1st run) should be in the $3-5K section.

 

What's considered his first run?

 

ASM 208 - 250, although there are a few fill-in issues by other artists (Weiss = 209; Hall = 219, 222, and 237; McLeod = 220 (originally intended for an issue of MTU; Kupperberg = 221)

 

Wonderful stories by Roger Stern

 

Oops, I forgot ASM 228, penciled by Rick Leonardi.

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For me, looking at this list ties in with another thread (comic art value/nostalgia). The values here are really tied in with a not just a particularly character, but often a very specific story arc. I'd argue in some cases, some artists work has gotten better over time, but earlier art they did is worth more because of the story it was attached to.

 

That's why I think any comparison between fine art and comic art is silly. Comic art was never meant to be stand alone art, which to me, is what really makes is unique.

 

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That's why I think any comparison between fine art and comic art is silly. Comic art was never meant to be stand alone art, which to me, is what really makes is unique.

 

I agree. Comic art is its own category, which is why some refer to it as "the 9th art". To the extent that there are crossovers with the fine art world, we are looking primarily at properties that are creator owned, written and drawn (hence the fine art world's flirtations with Crumb and the more edgy, underground cartoonists). Usually these comics more or less stand alone, and aren't tied into history, continuity or the works of other creators. I mean, does Frank Miller Daredevil belong in a Modern art museum? He didn't even create or own the character! And, that's an example where he was at least both writer and co-artist; most of the time the writer is someone else entirely. Comics are very collaborative (let's not give writers short shrift here just because we collect the art), spanning generations of creative talent on various characters and titles, and all the history, continuity and baggage that brings with it to whatever artist(s) we are honoring.

 

I firmly believe that comic art is worthy of honoring as its own art form, but, for many reasons, it doesn't really fit with conventional notions of fine art. Kirby wasn't the Picasso of his time; he was the Jack Kirby of his time and should be honored as such, much as the great film directors and musicians are honored as great creative talents and artists (but not necessarily in art museums). 2c

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Mark - I believe it depends on the era of page that you're referencing. Everett's 1960's/70's work would fall into the realm you discuss. I think the 1950's Atlas stuff would run over $15k for a nice panel page. Same for a Romita Cap page from that era, but that's more of a function of the scarcity of Golden Age/Atom Age Timely/Atlas superhero art on the market.

 

I don't believe it was meant to be an exhaustive list - I mean no Everett Subby either

 

I did see the Everett Subby GA page in Heritage sell for $86k a while back but hesitated to include it in the list as I don't really know that market. Where would he and his various popular runs fall in the list Mark? Thanks.

 

MTL>> That is an outlier

 

Everett Subby 'A' panel page should be in the $5 - 10K section

(multiple dealer sales in that range - I'd put both 2X and 70s together for this run)

 

Mark

 

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Soooooo.....Between the brackets and the percentages for lesser grade pages, it looks like a lot of prominent collectors are pretty much on the same page for what could almost be considered a (gulp!) OA price guide (albeit a loose one which requires the buyer to make his own determination as to what caliber page he is considering buying).

 

Very interesting start. I'm saving this thread and will be referencing these breakdowns a couple of years from now when I'm attempting to low-ball someone on an "A" Byrne X-Men page.

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Soooooo.....Between the brackets and the percentages for lesser grade pages, it looks like a lot of prominent collectors are pretty much on the same page for what could almost be considered a (gulp!) OA price guide (albeit a loose one which requires the buyer to make his own determination as to what caliber page he is considering buying).

 

Very interesting start. I'm saving this thread and will be referencing these breakdowns a couple of years from now when I'm attempting to low-ball someone on an "A" Byrne X-Men page.

 

...I can just see it "The All-New, All-Different 2014 Comic Art Price Guide: compiled BY collectors FOR collectors"

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i follow some of the artists on this list. with little to no public sales from either auctions or from dealer websites, i would love to know how some of these numbers are arrived at... but i guess if you make the price ranges big enough, anything could apply. i am sure a lot of these "values" come from deals where overinflated trade comes into play or it is 2nd hand information (via the phone game) from these not-so- private private sales.................. and isn't an "A" page really subjective?

 

Hey Rob! Thanks for the thoughts. I tried to base the info on both public sales and whatever private sales I knew of or had heard of. Obviously this list is not gospel but rather just my own observations on these sales. And yes, any second-hand value-info has to be taken with a grain of salt just as this list should be. This is why I have asked for any feedback on additions or modifications especially from those collectors who are much closer to certain segments of the market than I am. Therefore, if you have more concrete info on certain artist/run values, please share them and we can update the list accordingly. Thanks!

 

One of the challenges is that people who are passionate about certain combinations of artists/runs may also overestimate the value of that segment. And this may not be for selfish reasons, just may be what they've been seeing. But they also see the cream of the crop mainly and because of that what is A to them may be A+ to the rest of us, or visa versa. You can see how has the potential to artificially inflate the values. In other words, these are the experts for that market, but with it comes a passion and an overestimation at times based on what that person, who likely has been overpaying for years for that segment, sees.

 

I'm as guilty as anyone, as I'm a big Miracleman fan and I certainly recommended we put them above the ST run. That's what I've seen, although the ST stuff is starting to catch up now. So you should take my word because I've probably seen more than anyone else, but also should doubt me because maybe I'm seeing a skewed viewpoint. Similarly, Yoram is a JRJR ASM fan, Felix loves V pages and 80s stuff like me, Chris Caira is a huge Dredd fan, and so on and so on.

 

This list is great, but we will need other less impassioned viewpoints to continue to tweak the list up or down. But, of course, that's why we should try to find consensus. I wonder if a more objective way to tweak the list, once it's near complete (which I think it almost is, actually), is possible.

 

This is very true; there's always the potential of these values being skewed one way or the other by individual self-interest. Even if unintentionally, as you note. I mean, I love Totleben MIRACLEMAN, but can we really say that it's a slam-dunk $10-20K? There may be a few collectors willing to pay that much, but how many actual sales have there been at that level? Which is not to say Totleben MM won't get there...just not sure we can say that it's there yet.

 

Perhaps we should table some of these until we see some consistent auction results. Like V, which I brought up. Or have asterisks next to those which have only had private sales.

 

Apologies if I'm overcomplicating this. Ultimately, I suppose we should view this list as a VERY rough guide, with limited data points in most cases.

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Soooooo.....Between the brackets and the percentages for lesser grade pages, it looks like a lot of prominent collectors are pretty much on the same page for what could almost be considered a (gulp!) OA price guide (albeit a loose one which requires the buyer to make his own determination as to what caliber page he is considering buying).

 

Very interesting start. I'm saving this thread and will be referencing these breakdowns a couple of years from now when I'm attempting to low-ball someone on an "A" Byrne X-Men page.

 

...I can just see it "The All-New, All-Different 2014 Comic Art Price Guide: compiled BY collectors FOR collectors"

 

In all seriousness, it's not a bad exercise to do once a year.

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i follow some of the artists on this list. with little to no public sales from either auctions or from dealer websites, i would love to know how some of these numbers are arrived at... but i guess if you make the price ranges big enough, anything could apply. i am sure a lot of these "values" come from deals where overinflated trade comes into play or it is 2nd hand information (via the phone game) from these not-so- private private sales.................. and isn't an "A" page really subjective?

 

Hey Rob! Thanks for the thoughts. I tried to base the info on both public sales and whatever private sales I knew of or had heard of. Obviously this list is not gospel but rather just my own observations on these sales. And yes, any second-hand value-info has to be taken with a grain of salt just as this list should be. This is why I have asked for any feedback on additions or modifications especially from those collectors who are much closer to certain segments of the market than I am. Therefore, if you have more concrete info on certain artist/run values, please share them and we can update the list accordingly. Thanks!

 

One of the challenges is that people who are passionate about certain combinations of artists/runs may also overestimate the value of that segment. And this may not be for selfish reasons, just may be what they've been seeing. But they also see the cream of the crop mainly and because of that what is A to them may be A+ to the rest of us, or visa versa. You can see how has the potential to artificially inflate the values. In other words, these are the experts for that market, but with it comes a passion and an overestimation at times based on what that person, who likely has been overpaying for years for that segment, sees.

 

I'm as guilty as anyone, as I'm a big Miracleman fan and I certainly recommended we put them above the ST run. That's what I've seen, although the ST stuff is starting to catch up now. So you should take my word because I've probably seen more than anyone else, but also should doubt me because maybe I'm seeing a skewed viewpoint. Similarly, Yoram is a JRJR ASM fan, Felix loves V pages and 80s stuff like me, Chris Caira is a huge Dredd fan, and so on and so on.

 

This list is great, but we will need other less impassioned viewpoints to continue to tweak the list up or down. But, of course, that's why we should try to find consensus. I wonder if a more objective way to tweak the list, once it's near complete (which I think it almost is, actually), is possible.

 

This is very true; there's always the potential of these values being skewed one way or the other by individual self-interest. Even if unintentionally, as you note. I mean, I love Totleben MIRACLEMAN, but can we really say that it's a slam-dunk $10-20K? There may be a few collectors willing to pay that much, but how many actual sales have there been at that level? Which is not to say Totleben MM won't get there...just not sure we can say that it's there yet.

 

Perhaps we should table some of these until we see some consistent auction results. Like V, which I brought up. Or have asterisks next to those which have only had private sales.

 

Apologies if I'm overcomplicating this. Ultimately, I suppose we should view this list as a VERY rough guide, with limited data points in most cases.

 

Agree. It also all hinges on what we each consider an A page to be. And for short, but important runs, there may be more A pages and the price points skewed up, whereas for longer runs with more variety you see a wider portfolio. I think we just do what we're doing, and keep arguing up or down until we're "mostly" happy. And then add the obvious disclaimer that this is a GUIDE and that ultimatey each page is unique.

 

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Great feedback guys, thanks.

 

Some thoughts....

 

Hari:

- I moved Romita Spidey 2up down a notch but there are definitely more than one data-point of A-level stuff going past $40k

 

Mike Burkey would be a good person to ask on these. Isn't Mike selling A-level twice up Romita ASM pages for $60-75K? Of course, this does not include the special pages, like the introduction for MJ, which are presumably more.

 

 

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Great feedback guys, thanks.

 

Some thoughts....

 

Hari:

- I moved Romita Spidey 2up down a notch but there are definitely more than one data-point of A-level stuff going past $40k

 

Mike Burkey would be a good person to ask on these. Isn't Mike selling A-level twice up Romita ASM pages for $60-75K? Of course, this does not include the special pages, like the introduction for MJ, which are presumably more.

 

 

So, are we saying that Romita large-art ASM art is more than Ditko ASM art? Were the Romita pages splashy, with minimal panels, large images of Spider-man? Those are A+ pages in a market that has been very much controlled.

 

Burkey has not controlled this on purpose, of course. He was just passionate about the art at a time when no one was interested. More power to him. But, the market is a difficult one to place in a category because of that. He only started letting a few pages loose a couple years ago, and I don't see any public sales actually.

 

 

Edited by heartened
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Mike Burkey would be a good person to ask on these. Isn't Mike selling A-level twice up Romita ASM pages for $60-75K? Of course, this does not include the special pages, like the introduction for MJ, which are presumably more.

 

 

I believe all the $60-$75K pages were from ASM 39-40, and included some of the absolute best Romita pages in the entire run. I think one can safely say those were outliers.

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Great feedback guys, thanks.

 

Some thoughts....

 

Hari:

- I moved Romita Spidey 2up down a notch but there are definitely more than one data-point of A-level stuff going past $40k

 

Mike Burkey would be a good person to ask on these. Isn't Mike selling A-level twice up Romita ASM pages for $60-75K? Of course, this does not include the special pages, like the introduction for MJ, which are presumably more.

 

 

So, are we saying that Romita large-art ASM art is more than Ditko ASM art? Were the Romita pages splashy, with minimal panels, large images of Spider-man? Those are A+ pages in a market that has been very much controlled.

 

Burkey has not controlled this on purpose, of course. He was just passionate about the art at a time when no one was interested. More power to him. But, the market is a difficult one to place in a category because of that. He only started letting a few pages loose a couple years ago, and I don't see any public sales actually.

 

 

I think you can be passionate and still knowingly control the market to your benefit 2c Nothing wrong with it either!

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Mike Burkey would be a good person to ask on these. Isn't Mike selling A-level twice up Romita ASM pages for $60-75K? Of course, this does not include the special pages, like the introduction for MJ, which are presumably more.

 

 

I believe all the $60-$75K pages were from ASM 39-40, and included some of the absolute best Romita pages in the entire run. I think one can safely say those were outliers.

Yup, we can safely call those "A+" and therefore, not applicable to this discussion, per the parameters outlined by the OP.

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Mark - I believe it depends on the era of page that you're referencing. Everett's 1960's/70's work would fall into the realm you discuss. I think the 1950's Atlas stuff would run over $15k for a nice panel page. Same for a Romita Cap page from that era, but that's more of a function of the scarcity of Golden Age/Atom Age Timely/Atlas superhero art on the market.

 

I don't believe it was meant to be an exhaustive list - I mean no Everett Subby either

 

I did see the Everett Subby GA page in Heritage sell for $86k a while back but hesitated to include it in the list as I don't really know that market. Where would he and his various popular runs fall in the list Mark? Thanks.

 

MTL>> That is an outlier

 

Everett Subby 'A' panel page should be in the $5 - 10K section

(multiple dealer sales in that range - I'd put both 2X and 70s together for this run)

 

Mark

 

 

I knew I was forgetting something - agree An "A' Young Men page would be in the next tier up so....

 

So 60/70s Everett Subby $5 - 10K for As....

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I've just read this quite interesting discussion from pages 1-10.

 

and whoever wrote this list did an excellent job..and then tuned it up nicely.

 

I think people seem to forget that LARGE art and SMALL art pages by the same artist have extremely significant price differentials in our hobby!

 

Yes i own a large portion of ASM art drawn by the great John Romita and yes i bought most of what i have 10-24 years ago when it was quite cheaper.

 

Wwhen everyone was spending 1-2k for each ditko asm page..i was paying 40 bucks up to 300 bucks each for large art romita page from 1990-1995 or so.

 

supply and demand is extremely significant in determining current prices in our hobby.

 

pertaining to romita prices...i've sold some because i got offered very good prices that made me say...."YES ITS WORTH IT TO SELL"

 

But 1 question i will ask guys like Hari who always seem to want to devalue romita artwork...

 

How many large ROMITA ASM pages have been sold at auction in the past 15 or so years ..and how many Ditko asm pages have been auctioned off over ther same time.

 

i bet there have been well over 100 ditko pages that have been offered for sale and less than 10 romita pages in the same period.

 

and i totally agree that ditko asm battle pages are the tops in our hobby for panel pages...but i will say..andi know this for fact........

 

Romita non-spiderman CHARACTER pages are worth A LOT LOT MORE and would easily sell for A LOT LOT MORE than any Ditko asm character page ...whether its privately or in auction.

 

and why is this??

 

because romita made the soap opera that as spiderman a very PERSONAL experience for the reader..(as ditko did also) Buit romita put alotmore GLAMOR into his pages...even character pages.....and in no other comicbook EVER drawn in the 1960s was this more apparent.

 

i get asked by collectors for MJ and GWEN pages from ASM more than spiderman battle pages! lol

 

Is there any other comic book ever that collectors covet the GIRL friend of the hero more than the actual character at times? I cant think of any.

 

there may be 1 or 2 books out there which i dont know of where side characters or girlfriends of heroes are extremely sought after.....

 

...but i cant think any...other than...THE AMAZING SPIDR-MAN of the 1960s and 70s!

 

 

on a side note.....i've sold 8 large art asm pages over the past year.... and every one sold for between 45-75k cash. (no trade)

 

so Hari..... ( In fun here of course) give romita drawn ASM art it's fair due........ And you should have bought that complete asm 75 book I offered you a few years ago (to go with your fine fine #75 cover) .....you passed on it...... and in hindsight i'm glad you did! :)

 

 

 

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I've just read this quite interesting discussion from pages 1-10.

 

and whoever wrote this list did an excellent job..and then tuned it up nicely.

 

I think people seem to forget that LARGE art and SMALL art pages by the same artist have extremely significant price differentials in our hobby!

 

Yes i own a large portion of ASM art drawn by the great John Romita and yes i bought most of what i have 10-24 years ago when it was quite cheaper.

 

Wwhen everyone was spending 1-2k for each ditko asm page..i was paying 40 bucks up to 300 bucks each for large art romita page from 1990-1995 or so.

 

supply and demand is extremely significant in determining current prices in our hobby.

 

pertaining to romita prices...i've sold some because i got offered very good prices that made me say...."YES ITS WORTH IT TO SELL"

 

But 1 question i will ask guys like Hari who always seem to want to devalue romita artwork...

 

How many large ROMITA ASM pages have been sold at auction in the past 15 or so years ..and how many Ditko asm pages have been auctioned off over ther same time.

 

i bet there have been well over 100 ditko pages that have been offered for sale and less than 10 romita pages in the same period.

 

and i totally agree that ditko asm battle pages are the tops in our hobby for panel pages...but i will say..andi know this for fact........

 

Romita non-spiderman CHARACTER pages are worth A LOT LOT MORE and would easily sell for A LOT LOT MORE than any Ditko asm character page ...whether its privately or in auction.

 

and why is this??

 

because romita made the soap opera that as spiderman a very PERSONAL experience for the reader..(as ditko did also) Buit romita put alotmore GLAMOR into his pages...even character pages.....and in no other comicbook EVER drawn in the 1960s was this more apparent.

 

i get asked by collectors for MJ and GWEN pages from ASM more than spiderman battle pages! lol

 

Is there any other comic book ever that collectors covet the GIRL friend of the hero more than the actual character at times? I cant think of any.

 

there may be 1 or 2 books out there which i dont know of where side characters or girlfriends of heroes are extremely sought after.....

 

...but i cant think any...other than...THE AMAZING SPIDR-MAN of the 1960s and 70s!

 

 

on a side note.....i've sold 8 large art asm pages over the past year.... and every one sold for between 45-75k cash. (no trade)

 

so Hari..... ( In fun here of course) give romita drawn ASM art it's fair due........ And you should have bought that complete asm 75 book I offered you a few years ago (to go with your fine fine #75 cover) .....you passed on it...... and in hindsight i'm glad you did! :)

 

 

 

Hiya, Mike:

 

Great insight on the Romita Sr Spidey art. I know a lot of folks on the boards would not be as open or forthcoming as you so I just wanted to let you know I appreciate your post.

 

If I may ask another question - how many Romita Sr ASM issues are large art? I know Ditko illustrated 38 issues on large art (excluding annuals), but what about Romita Sr?

 

Kind Regards,

 

-Yoram

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Hi Mike!

 

I meant no disrespect, as I'm sure you know :)

 

I don't doubt your passion at all, and I don't doubt the Romita market. As I mentioned I much prefer the visual art of Romita to Ditko on the run by a fair margin. I just think that the Romita large art market is not as stable because of the reason you mention; you have most of the art, and you will only let things go if the money is much more than you think is legit; i.e. "stupid money". But this is what it takes to pry 1% out of someone who has almost 100%. It's not a fair comparison to other artist markets where it is not as tightly held. Not saying the prices aren't real, but rather that the substance behind those prices more reflects a starving fanbase rather than the inherent value. I realie it's a chicken or the egg, but other artists on the list don't have the same issue.

 

Right now if you want a large art Romita ASM page you have to go to one place. If you want a large art Ditko ASM you can shop around. Thus, there is a fair market and competition in the latter example that tends to make prices more established, and no one person can be a significant outlier otherwise the buyer will just say no and move on to the next potential seller.

 

I am not bashing the Romita market, just saying that when we put pen to paper and make a list like this it is very important to compare apples to apples. Some price points on the list are far more established with narrower confidence intervals than the others. Our list doesn't adequatley portray that aspect yet.

 

Regarding the ASM 75 interiors, yes it would have been cool. But in the end I realized I just thought it'd be cool to have the whole book together, but deep down I knew that the cover was the most important to me :) And, you still wanted 5K a page for a total of 100K back then, which was maybe 6 or 7 years ago. So, even then it wasn't exactly a no-brainer. Sure I could have now sold off the pages, but you know that's not my style. I'm in this to spend money it seems lol!

 

Again, meant no offense and wasn't just picking on Romita ASM. There are other examples on the list that might need a bit of an asterisk next to it for one reason or another. You can do the same thing with the Miracleman prices (which is my wheel house), as much of it is hype right now (with the exception of issue #15). I would have no problem adding such an asterisk to the MM art, and a few others, until the markets are more established.

 

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What a great and insightful thread and an invaluable resource-- particularly for collectors (like me) relatively new to pursuing "A-level" OA pieces. Also confirms that valuing OA is not an exact science...even hobby VIPs have plenty to debate.

 

For me, aside from being a general price "guide", this can serve as high-level budgeting tool to better allocate future spending. Sadly, my want list exceeds my budget many times over, and keeps getting longer, so this is helpful in refining my checklist, prioritizing where might channel my limited funds to maximize my personal enjoyment…which is always subjective and unique to every collector. I guess the key is to identify where my personal values might be much higher than the prevailing market.

 

I've often targeted CAF or auction pieces that fellow collectors advise "That's easily a $__k page!" or "Probably hammers for $X-Y" where my initial (naive) valuation is very different.

 

Again, thrilled at the input/comments so far, keep 'em coming (thumbs u

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