THE AMAZING FANTASY #15 CLUB 39 39

[gadzukes]

Iceman399 

Your brilliant detective work averted a travesty.

The buyer should seriously think about giving you a small reward.

Edited March 2, 2019 by gadzukes

[Gotham Kid]

8 hours ago, LDarkseid1 said:

Just to update everyone, I know the buyer. Sale has been cancelled and book is staying with the current owner of the book. It was actually thanks to Iceman399’s original post on Wednesday referencing the book when it was CGC graded and restored that I was able to update my friend who bought it. So in short, this forum can be a very helpful community sometimes!

That's the first part of the story. Curious about the second. What will be done about the book and the answers that should be expected from the grading company.

Edited March 2, 2019 by Gotham Kid

[gadzukes]

I wonder if this example of "crack open a trimmed CGC plod and send it to the other guys for an unrestored label" will open the floodgates of others trying the same thing.

[LDarkseid1]

3 hours ago, Gotham Kid said:

That's the first part of the story. Curious about the second. What will be done about the book and the answers that should be expected from the grading company.

Yeah it's hard to answer that question. I know the current owner apparently claimed they bought it raw and then sent it to be graded. Whether that's true or not and they didn't deslab it themselves, who knows. If we do see this book ever again I highly doubt it will be at auction with the stigma attached to it now and the documented public knowledge of it. So if anyone's ever in the market for an AF15 in higher grade, do your due-diligence!!! In case you may come across this copy as it's essentially now the boogie man of the AF15 market .

Edited March 2, 2019 by LDarkseid1

[NoMan]

What an interesting couple of pages. Good job, Iceman399.

Wonder if this will have everyone and anyone thinking that if you go to the guys across the street for encapsulation and grading than there must be a nefarious reason why.

Edited March 2, 2019 by NoMan

[bronze johnny]

3 hours ago, gadzukes said:

I wonder if this example of "crack open a trimmed CGC plod and send it to the other guys for an unrestored label" will open the floodgates of others trying the same thing.

You think this is something new? 

[Sweet Lou 14]

19 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

You think this is something new? 

And also, you think people aren't onto it?  As mentioned earlier in the thread, when it comes to these major keys it's definitely buyer beware if it's slabbed by an alternative service.

[bronze johnny]

11 minutes ago, Sweet Lou 14 said:

And also, you think people aren't onto it?  As mentioned earlier in the thread, when it comes to these major keys it's definitely buyer beware if it's slabbed by an alternative service.

Some people are onto it with one exception- micro trimmed books. It didn't end with Ewert.

[Foosman]

If the book had come back as a trimmed 9.0 would there have still been grounds to cancel the sale because it was “really” a trimmed 8.0? Does the result change if it were color touch and not trimming?  Press and not color touch?  If someone sends a trimmed unverified book for signature verification and it returns untrimmed but verified do they have to disclose that or fear third party meddling in future sales?What if it returns unverified but trimmed, can they crack and send for back for a label that does not pass judgment on sigs?

High grade high dollar books is not a sandbox I play in so most likely all of these have been beaten to death. But when a $120k transaction is cancelled contrary to the stated terms of the selling website then the ground rules are worth considering. 

[Sweet Lou 14]

35 minutes ago, Foosman said:

If the book had come back as a trimmed 9.0 would there have still been grounds to cancel the sale because it was “really” a trimmed 8.0? Does the result change if it were color touch and not trimming?  Press and not color touch?  If someone sends a trimmed unverified book for signature verification and it returns untrimmed but verified do they have to disclose that or fear third party meddling in future sales?What if it returns unverified but trimmed, can they crack and send for back for a label that does not pass judgment on sigs?

High grade high dollar books is not a sandbox I play in so most likely all of these have been beaten to death. But when a $120k transaction is cancelled contrary to the stated terms of the selling website then the ground rules are worth considering. 

While we're all talking about hypotheticals, let's take a hypothetical that doesn't even involve a purple label.  If you bought a book -- regardless of which company graded it -- and could then confirm that the same book had previously been graded lower before getting cracked out and resubmitted, would that make you unhappy with your purchase?  Would you be staring at your 9.0 (for argument's sake) unable to forget that it was originally graded 8.0 or 8.5?

[Spiderturtle]

1 hour ago, Sweet Lou 14 said:

While we're all talking about hypotheticals, let's take a hypothetical that doesn't even involve a purple label.  If you bought a book -- regardless of which company graded it -- and could then confirm that the same book had previously been graded lower before getting cracked out and resubmitted, would that make you unhappy with your purchase?  Would you be staring at your 9.0 (for argument's sake) unable to forget that it was originally graded 8.0 or 8.5?

The rules changes when it’s graded by pgx.  Built in huge discount accounting for uncertainty.  There’s already a built in discount when graded cbcs, look at that price for the 8.0.  The sky could be falling but there’s no way it go for that if graded by cgc.  Remember that cbcs 8.5 sold by heritage that later got the same grade with cgc.  Quick flip huge profit.  Roulette 

[DST]

Pardon the interruption regarding the trimmed copy and cancelled auction.

Really excited to display my new club credentials  

I present my new keeper copy 

[Spiderturtle]

1 minute ago, DST said:

Pardon the interruption regarding the trimmed copy and cancelled auction.

Really excited to display my new club credentials  

I present my new keeper copy 

No mc, nice gray background, deep colors.  Nice!

[c_mkv]

5 minutes ago, DST said:

Pardon the interruption regarding the trimmed copy and cancelled auction.

Really excited to display my new club credentials  

I present my new keeper copy 

Stun-Ning. And perfectly entered with white pages to boot. Just a beauty congrats again 

[peewee22]

11 minutes ago, DST said:

Pardon the interruption regarding the trimmed copy and cancelled auction.

Really excited to display my new club credentials  

I present my new keeper copy 

I would love to have a copy like this raw so I could enjoy the PQ. The colors and grays are astounding. Congrats.

[Drummy]

Congrats, Dave!  That's the perfect mid-grade copy -- for any collector.  Enjoy.

[c_mkv]

On 2/27/2019 at 11:36 PM, Iceman399 said:

So this book just sold again on Clink this past week and hammered for $120k.  At first you are like what you talking about...then when you look closer you'll see it's in a different holder.  Did CGC miscall the trimming (like they've done in the past ala JIM83 fiasc, or did "they" miss the trimming).  Either way, there is likely some upset parties.

 

As if we needed another reason to stay away from the other place. Excellent detective work Iceman.

[Glassman10]

19 hours ago, peewee22 said:

Glassman10, yes, we do call this a hobby and the forum works the right way. 

I don't object to the forum but it's inarguable that the primary concern is monetary value. This forum is running by the blessing of house rules and the house profits on the accuracy of the grading among other things. It strikes me that the auction houses ought to have some complicity in the process if they're marketing collectibles. There's an uncomfortable level of fraud in these transactions yet it seems to be fairly accepted that the fraud will always be a part of that.  When one is talking about cash sales in the neighborhood of six figures or more yet the fraud can persist, I would not be inclined to support that system. There must be a better way in that the auctions and the graders can come to  a meeting of the minds over how to police their own business. In horses, they tattoo the inner lips of the beasts for ID.  I would think that some mutually agreed on form of ID ( some sort of watermark perhaps?) could be placed in a book that all concerned agreed did not lower the value for at least the upper end ones.

[Gotham Kid]

Any recent trimmed Hulk 1s sold?

https://comics.ha.com/itm/silver-age-1956-1969-/the-incredible-hulk-1-marvel-1962-cbcs-vf-85-exceptional-white-pages/p/7209-16001.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

 

[DTM700]

36 minutes ago, Glassman10 said:

I don't object to the forum but it's inarguable that the primary concern is monetary value. This forum is running by the blessing of house rules and the house profits on the accuracy of the grading among other things. It strikes me that the auction houses ought to have some complicity in the process if they're marketing collectibles. There's an uncomfortable level of fraud in these transactions yet it seems to be fairly accepted that the fraud will always be a part of that.  When one is talking about cash sales in the neighborhood of six figures or more yet the fraud can persist, I would not be inclined to support that system. There must be a better way in that the auctions and the graders can come to  a meeting of the minds over how to police their own business. In horses, they tattoo the inner lips of the beasts for ID.  I would think that some mutually agreed on form of ID ( some sort of watermark perhaps?) could be placed in a book that all concerned agreed did not lower the value for at least the upper end ones.

This is an interesting and well thought out statement.

If comics somehow were to have an ID marker that could not be tampered with, it would minimize the room for error on the census going forward (e.g. re-submissions, signatures added, etc.). It would also mean that all grading companies would need to have access to each others findings and notes for reference. But what would they do if a discrepancy was found? Collaborate among each other?

Curious, how do other graded collectibles work? Coins, cards, stamps? All graded by one sole company or do those other markets have the same issues to consider re: potential fraud.