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THE AMAZING FANTASY #15 CLUB
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14,479 posts in this topic

And another corollary: Because the pages are peeking out, an early SA Marvel might have been pressed.

This one is made easier by looking for other tell-tale signs on a high grade early SA Marvel.

If it's got overhang bends or other creases that don't break color, it's highly likely to have not been pressed.  You don't even need to know the history of how the Pacific Coast Amazing Spiderman run came to market to see that the stunning ASM #11 in cgc 9.6 hasn't been, because it still has pressable features.  And, not coincidentally, a beautiful right edge with interior pages precisely meeting the cover, like all the other Pacific Coast early Marvels before they were pressed.

But if it's got not just pages sticking out but also a starched collar for a top edge overhang, or a runny pen arrival date, or impacted staples, or a cover tilted counterclockwise, or fuzzy paper at the staple holes, or impacted staples, or a horizontal crease running close to the spine, the chances increase that it's been pressed. The more of these stigmata a book has, the more likely it's been pressed.  The visual archives of scans and photos are filled with them.

Edited by namisgr
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10 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

So, are we then to assume the corollary to your above statment would be that "just because pages are NOT peeking out (even all the way down the book) does not automatically mean a book was NOT pressed?  :baiting:  lol

Eh, no. :roflmao:

Er, maybe?

The pages peeking out are a product of age, moisture content of the paper and how the book was stored.

Yes, pressing a book CAN make the paper change size but it's a process that occurs naturally and you have no way of knowing how or why it got there.

That's why some books EVEN AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN PRESSED have all the edges of the pages and covers line up (Silver Age, Bronze Age it doesn't matter). The book looks trimmed...but it wasn't, and the covers didn't shrink even though they were pressed.

Why?

Because when the book was new that is the way the book looked on the newsstand and we are not used to seeing books that way because they have been aging for decades.

3 minutes ago, namisgr said:

But if it's got not only pages that stick out along the right edge especially along the top half, but also a starched collar for a top edge overhang, or a runny pen arrival date, or impacted staples, or a cover tilted counterclockwise, or fuzzy paper at the staple holes, or impacted staples, or a horizontal crease running close to the spine, the chances increase that it's been pressed.  And the more of these stigmata a book has, the more likely it's been pressed.

Fuzzy paper at the staples is usually a product of reading a book and paper being stressed at the staples. I've had many books pressed and have never thought to myself 'hey, this paper got more fuzzy after pressing'

Impacted staples happen THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME on specific issues in the mid 1960's from the way the book was produced. The top staple is usually the one (not always) and it's (IMO) too tight, causing the paper to indent around the staple. I'm not going to start disclosing which books have it because in this new market all knowledge is valuable but it does happen with regularity with some issues especially in the runs you collected. Pressing 'might' weaken those areas but more often than not, the problem was there to begin with.

Also, stored a book upright will cause the interior pages to lean outwards from the cover (top leaning out first usually) and weaker staples will be more prone to indenting at the staple from the interior pulling out.

Horizontal crease close to the spine? First I've heard of it. It's likely a reading crease that was already there before pressing. I don't see how a pressed book can create a horizontal crease along the spine. Some SA (and BA) books come with creases because the paper didn't fold properly for whatever reason and again, pressing can either make this pre existing condition worse or better just as handling the book could.

So, I disagree that the more of these stigmata a book has, the more likely it's been pressed because these all appear on unpressed books and are not products of pressing.

 

 

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9 hours ago, VintageComics said:

Yes, pressing a book CAN make the paper change size but it's a process that occurs naturally and you have no way of knowing how or why it got there.

That's why some books EVEN AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN PRESSED have all the edges of the pages and covers line up (Silver Age, Bronze Age it doesn't matter). The book looks trimmed...but it wasn't, and the covers didn't shrink even though they were pressed.

 

Here are two issues from the same submission, purchased from clink.

Are you saying that the paper may have changed size?

 

126.jpg

128.jpg

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10 hours ago, sledgehammer said:

Here are two issues from the same submission, purchased from clink.

Are you saying that the paper may have changed size?

I'm not sure what you're asking me but newsprint ABSOLUTELY changes size over time.

When comics are published, they are folded, stapled and then trimmed on the 3 open sides. Once trimmed, all wraps are roughly the exact same length on all 3 sides.

If you get pages peeking out on the right, an overhang at the top or bottom, etc, it's because the interior pages start changing size at a different rate than the cover stock.

This happens to every single book using SA / BA newsprint (roughly from the Atom Age and moving forward through the SA/BA and CA)

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11 hours ago, VintageComics said:

This happens to every single book using SA / BA newsprint (roughly from the Atom Age and moving forward through the SA/BA and CA)

:facepalm:

Except for the hundreds of thousands of comics >40 years old that have covers and interior pages well aligned, then yeah.  Like virtually all of the comics in the Pacific Coast, Curator, Massachusetts, White Mountain, Boston, Twin Cities, Northland, and Winnipeg pedigree collections, all of which but the TCs having been brought to market in the days before CGC and rampant pressing.  What a coincidence.

Edited by namisgr
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2 hours ago, GAMBIT said:

what @VintageComics is saying is 100% true. I don't understand the argument :gossip:

If you want to bring imperceptible changes in paper into the discussion, then yeah.  But the subject is pages sticking way out from covers on early SA Marvels.  And with the hobby's long-time experience with the many pedigree collections brought to market in the days before CGC opened its doors and all virtually all high grade Silver began to be pressed, it's readily apparent that the vast majority of early SA Marvels survived 40 years and more without changes in paper size so perceptible they make the pages stick way out from the cover.  The phenomenon is so much more prevalent today than before because of changes in paper that sometimes happen from pressing, and that pedigree comics have been subjected to an overwhelming degree over the past 15 years.

 

Edited by namisgr
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This restored Voldemort claims to have "pieces added" "color touch" but I can't for the life of me detect anything original on the front cover.  Does it look way off to you guys?  It looks like a weird color copy with color touch on it.

Pretty deceptive if that's what it is.

Maybe labels should say what the percentage of original cover is.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Amazing-Fantasy-15-CBCS-9-0-HIGH-GRADE-SS-STAN-LEE-SIGNED-AF15-COMIC-BOOK/323635929813?hash=item4b5a3462d5:g:8yYAAOSwMHtbjTTj

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On 2/27/2020 at 8:53 PM, VintageComics said:

So, I disagree that the more of these stigmata a book has, the more likely it's been pressed because these all appear on unpressed books and are not products of pressing.

Or is it possible that we are now seeing a lot more of these due to the relatively poorer quality of the pressing work now being performed by a certain pressing company in the post-Nelson era that shall remain nameless for obvious reasons?  hm  :devil:

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1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

Or is it possible that we are now seeing a lot more of these due to the relatively poorer quality of the pressing work now being performed by a certain pressing company in the post-Nelson era that shall remain nameless for obvious reasons?  hm  :devil:

The great flaw of this board is that you can't speak your mind without retribution. I don't own or trade in comics at this point which is quite freeing.  ( until you're blocked) . Loosing money elsewhere works for me. The board on glass that I run , I'm loath to censor or limit content unless it's blatantly wrong . It has over 1000 members.  The trouble here is the effect on business. Can't have that! Really reassuring , right?  There's a price to be paid for establishing that you have integrity. 

Edited by Glassman10
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4 hours ago, lou_fine said:
On 2/27/2020 at 11:53 PM, VintageComics said:

So, I disagree that the more of these stigmata a book has, the more likely it's been pressed because these all appear on unpressed books and are not products of pressing.

Or is it possible that we are now seeing a lot more of these due to the relatively poorer quality of the pressing work now being performed by a certain pressing company in the post-Nelson era that shall remain nameless for obvious reasons?  hm  

There's an easy way to test this.

Just start going through any books that are printed on the type of newsprint that SA/BA/CA Marvels are printed on. Walk a show floor and you'll find 100,000's of books.

Only look for low grade beaters that certainly haven't been pressed and you'll see the same phenomenon that you see on higher grade copies: Page sizes vary, whether a book has been pressed or not. It's that simple.

You could literally find 1000 copies of the same book and depending on how it was stored the pages will vary in size from copy to copy.

Would that be a sample size large enough that you could take as hard fact?

 

3 hours ago, Glassman10 said:

There's a price to be paid for establishing that you have integrity. 

Are you saying in a roundabout PC way that some people posting here are lacking integrity?

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14 hours ago, namisgr said:

:facepalm:

Except for the hundreds of thousands of comics >40 years old that have covers and interior pages well aligned, then yeah.  Like virtually all of the comics in the Pacific Coast, Curator, Massachusetts, White Mountain, Boston, Twin Cities, Northland, and Winnipeg pedigree collections, all of which but the TCs having been brought to market in the days before CGC and rampant pressing.  What a coincidence.

Wait, so what you're saying is that those comics were 20 years newer back then.

An FF #1 was only 38 years old when CGC started.

A Hulk #181 was only 25 years old.

For one, paper changes in 20 years.

2nd, you don't NOTICE things until you start looking for them.

I NEVER cared about miswraps until I joined this chat forum and people were talking about them. I was blind to them as I just assumed it was a normal thing. Then when people started talking about them I started noticing them.

I'd need to see pictures of comics from 20-30 and 40 years ago to document whether paper was changing size or not back then.

But if paper DIDN'T change size back then, and all comics were trimmed on 3 sides then how did the 'Marvel overhang' ever come into existence? It's been a 'thing' for as long as I can remember.

Did Marvel's not have overhang before CGC and pressing became a thing? :makepoint:

13 hours ago, namisgr said:

If you want to bring imperceptible changes in paper into the discussion, then yeah.  But the subject is pages sticking way out from covers on early SA Marvels.  And with the hobby's long-time experience with the many pedigree collections brought to market in the days before CGC opened its doors and all virtually all high grade Silver began to be pressed, it's readily apparent that the vast majority of early SA Marvels survived 40 years and more without changes in paper size so perceptible they make the pages stick way out from the cover.  The phenomenon is so much more prevalent today than before because of changes in paper that sometimes happen from pressing, and that pedigree comics have been subjected to an overwhelming degree over the past 15 years.

 

Marvel Overhang.

Mic drop.

 

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With 4 days left in the bidding, the AF15 in cgc 9.4 grade is at $504,000.  I'm sure it'll take the live bidding to settle the winner.

Edited by namisgr
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21 hours ago, gadzukes said:

This restored Voldemort claims to have "pieces added" "color touch" but I can't for the life of me detect anything original on the front cover.  Does it look way off to you guys?  It looks like a weird color copy with color touch on it.

Pretty deceptive if that's what it is.

Maybe labels should say what the percentage of original cover is.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Amazing-Fantasy-15-CBCS-9-0-HIGH-GRADE-SS-STAN-LEE-SIGNED-AF15-COMIC-BOOK/323635929813?hash=item4b5a3462d5:g:8yYAAOSwMHtbjTTj

Unless I’m reading incorrectly, the label states Professional Restoration includes... in the description, but then says EXT Amateur above the grade.  Typo?

Anyhow, I agree.  Something about the book looks “unnatural”.

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16 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Or is it possible that we are now seeing a lot more of these due to the relatively poorer quality of the pressing work now being performed by a certain pressing company in the post-Nelson era that shall remain nameless for obvious reasons?  hm  :devil:

Wouldn't it be more likely that it's because of some of the pressers that post videos of themselves on youtube introducing humidity chambers in to the equation?

How many of these do it your selfers out there work there way up to high end books?

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8 hours ago, namisgr said:

With 4 days left in the bidding, the AF15 in cgc 9.4 grade is at $504,000.  I'm sure it'll take the live bidding to settle the winner.

guessing 650-700

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20 hours ago, namisgr said:

I bought thousands of brand new Marvel comics in the Bronze Age, and many of them came with the top edge and/or top and bottom corners hanging a little bit over the pages.  Many of the Annuals and Giant-Size BA Marvels also came off the printing press with the cover hanging over the pages along the right edge, too.  Surely you must know these things.  As for books with overhang that develops over decades, they're the result of the interior pages shrinking relative to the cover paper, a process that is guaranteed to not be responsible for pages sticking out from their covers along the right edge.

Your math exercise on aging comics is off base.  I had a collection of a slew of unpressed early SA Marvels until just a few years ago, virtually all without interior pages sticking out from the covers.  The same is true having seen thousands more from dealer inventories and collections in the 1990s.  So no, most of these comics didn't survive their first 40 years looking practically like the day they rolled off the presses and then suddenly over the next 10 develop the stigmata of pressing, including covers retracted from interior pages and other defects, from natural causes.

But what I most take away from your posts here is that you are poor at detecting whether a comic has been pressed or not, thinking erroneously about the unpressed Pacific Coast copy of ASM #11 and failing to recognize how many early SA Marvels on the market over the past 10-15 years bear multiple stigmata of pressing that virtually assures they've been manipulated.  Couple poor detection skills with the incentive of a dealer for whom pressing is a central part of their business ("following the money", as you like to say), spreading the mantra that pressing is undetectable even for early SA Marvels, and you've buried your head in the sand over the matter. 

Bob, you are just unable to have a conversation without personally insulting people.

I'll respond tomorrow as it's been a long day travelling from Chicago but I'll just say that you are incapable of having an honest conversation when you're emotionally invested.

You accuse me of the same things when I discuss natural / alternative health that you are guilty of in this conversation.

Unbelievable.

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