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THE AMAZING FANTASY #15 CLUB
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14,479 posts in this topic

On 2/26/2020 at 10:12 AM, VintageComics said:

 

Yes. I've noticed this as well.

And as an interesting side note, I have a theory as to why.

Years ago I picked up an original owner Marvel SA collection from off continent and all of the issues that were notorious for off center miswraps were perfectly centered.

I attributed it to those issue being early off the presses (because they had to travel further to reach the newsstand) and therefore have stronger production quality.

I just went back to look at the AF #15 from this batch, and you guessed it, it was nearly perfectly centered with only the tip of the A touching the spine, the circle fully present on the left and the comics code fully present on the right.

As was the FF #48 and all other issues that are normally poorly centered.

 

 

Or the buyer could have been the same anal nutjob that I was as a kid, and cherry picked the copy that he thought was the nicest looking.

:baiting:

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On 2/29/2020 at 9:41 PM, VintageComics said:

 

 

 

Are you saying in a roundabout PC way that some people posting here are lacking integrity?

No, I'm suggesting that speaking your mind can get you in trouble with management. 

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20 hours ago, Gotham Kid said:
On 3/1/2020 at 4:32 AM, namisgr said:

With 4 days left in the bidding, the AF15 in cgc 9.4 grade is at $504,000.  I'm sure it'll take the live bidding to settle the winner.

guessing 650-700

It would definitely not be good news for AF 15 collectors if this ccopy did not since CC was able to sell their CGC 9.2 graded copy for $598K last summer:

https://www.comicconnect.com/item/723368?tzf=1

ama12.647a.jpg

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5 hours ago, namisgr said:

Calling you biased

Calling me anything is just immature and evading the actual discussion.

And your bias is showing because you always respond in the same way to me.

Sticking to the discussion, the facts and going back and forth on the examples each person is providing would be the mature way to do it.

Maybe one day you'll be able to do that without shooting the messenger every time you need to type a post.

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5 hours ago, sledgehammer said:

Or the buyer could have been the same anal nutjob that I was as a kid, and cherry picked the copy that he thought was the nicest looking.

:baiting:

It's possible but I have had discussions with other West Coast collectors as well and they seemed to feel the same way: That the earliest books off the presses generally ended up out West and had the least amount of defects.

Whether it's right or not I don't know for sure but it's an interesting theory that hasn't been disproven yet to my knowledge.

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On 3/1/2020 at 7:06 AM, namisgr said:

I bought thousands of brand new Marvel comics in the Bronze Age, and many of them came with the top edge and/or top and bottom corners hanging a little bit over the pages.

Perfect.

So the paper shrank from the time the book was printed to the time it reached the newsstands.

It likely continues to shrink for some time I would assume, depending on storage conditions.

But how do you explain books that have all the edges matching perfectly from the SA and BA - and I know they are not trimmed because you can see the cutter blade score marks match across all the wraps of the book so unless a trimmer took the time to create those score marks (which would be a waste of time on most books) there must be an explanation for why some books have overhang and others don't.

On 3/1/2020 at 7:06 AM, namisgr said:

Many of the Annuals and Giant-Size BA Marvels also came off the printing press with the cover hanging over the pages along the right edge, too.  

Yep. But they also have paper in varying size where on some the cover matches right up and on others the covers are longer than the pages, even though they were trimmed all the same initially.

On 3/1/2020 at 7:06 AM, namisgr said:

Surely you must know these things.

I don't want to flex here but at this point I've probably handled more raw comics and looked at them more closely than you. Yes, I know these things.

On 3/1/2020 at 7:06 AM, namisgr said:

As for books with overhang that develops over decades, they're the result of the interior pages shrinking relative to the cover paper, a process that is guaranteed to not be responsible for pages sticking out from their covers along the right edge.

Wait, you're saying that the paper changes size longitudinally but not laterally?

How is that even possible?

When wood shrinks or changes size it's affected in all directions, not just one. But you're saying paper only moves in one direction?

At this point, we're also are not sure if the covers are changing size, the interior pages are changing size or both.

Do you know for certain?

I spoke to a paper restoration expert and they were actually going to do a thesis on this because they weren't sure either.

On 3/1/2020 at 7:06 AM, namisgr said:

Your math exercise on aging comics is off base.  I had a collection of a slew of unpressed early SA Marvels until just a few years ago, virtually all without interior pages sticking out from the covers.  The same is true having seen thousands more from dealer inventories and collections in the 1990s.

This is called confirmation bias.

I've watched you sell off your collection over the years and watched the discussions.

The biggest one was the Cole Shave collection which became known as the Costanza discussion and you documented how many of your books were showing peeking pages.

I also remember other discussions.

But all this does is confirm the books were pressed poorly (to which CCS admitted).

But there are also literally millions of comics out there that have various 'stigmata of pressing' that were never pressed and I am asking how that can be?

I posted a picture of an AF #15 that half the people in this discussion would call pressed because the pages were sticking out and yet it wasn't pressed.

So yes, pressing can and does change books and improper pressing can exaggerate 'stigmata of pressing' but that doesn't account for the millions of books that have 'stigmata of pressing' but were never pressed.

Do you need me to go to my boxes and start posting pics of books that were never pressed that have stigmata of pressing?

On 3/1/2020 at 7:06 AM, namisgr said:

But what I most take away from your posts here is that you are poor at detecting whether a comic has been pressed or not, thinking erroneously about the unpressed Pacific Coast copy of ASM #11 and failing to recognize how many early SA Marvels on the market over the past 10-15 years bear multiple stigmata of pressing that virtually assures they've been manipulated.

Wait, you used one example and extrapolated that I'm horrible at detecting pressing?

Is that how scientists come to their conclusions? lol What is this, grade school?

I probably handle 10,000's and possibly 100,000's of raw books every year. You don't think I know what a pressed book looks like?

That's almost as ridiculous as saying that paper moves in one direction but not another (something that is physically near impossible)

I looked at a small picture of the PC ASM #11 without my glasses and made a quick assumption. I'm sorry. I was wrong. :foryou:

Now lets really talk about it.

There are pressers who press books out there who make the books look like they are unpressed.

There are pressed books out there that don't look pressed.

There are pressed books out there that DO look pressed.

There are UNpressed books out there that DO look pressed.

I think I can likely tell MOST of them all apart better than you but I can't guarantee I'll get every one right.

So I'm not what your point was about this book except that you are trying to discredit me (yet again) rather than stick to the topic at hand.

A mature person would have just said "actually, the book hasn't been pressed' and moved on.

On 3/1/2020 at 7:06 AM, namisgr said:

 Couple poor detection skills with the incentive of a dealer for whom pressing is a central part of their business ("following the money", as you like to say), spreading the mantra that pressing is undetectable even for early SA Marvels, and you've buried your head in the sand over the matter. 

Oh look, more personal insults and no actual debate.

Or, you could just go through random boxes of low grade (nearly guaranteed unpressed) books and find examples with pages in various degrees of shrinkage and admit that maybe you might be wrong.

6 hours ago, namisgr said:

But it's fact that the hobby used to be filled with high grade early SA Marvels in the days before pressing became a cottage industry that didn't bear the stigmata of pressing.  This includes each and every SA pedigree collection, despite the paper having aged for 40 or more years.  And it's fact that pressing can introduce one or more defects on these early SA Marvels, proven by the before-and-after physical records and observed by many hobbyists aware of and on the lookout for these defects.

Cool, let's start looking at pictures from 70, 60, 50, 40, 30, 20 and 10 years ago and see what these books actually looked like rather than go from memory.

Because any lawyer or police officer will tell you that your memory is the least reliable form of evidence.

People never talk in person like they do on the internet. I wonder how you would feel if someone walked into a place of business of yours and started personally insulting you and trying to discredit you?

Oh yeah, you wouldn't appreciate it.

But thanks for doing that here.

 

Edited by VintageComics
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8 hours ago, Aman619 said:

I don’t think you guys are using the word stigmata correctly, are you? Are the pages bleeding?

I think most people know what we mean. I was just following the lead of others.

4 hours ago, Gotham Kid said:

and my eyes, from reading most of the BS going around.

Why is it that you are always so negative when I'm posting and yet never offer nothing substantial to a discussion?

(shrug)

If you feel something is BS then offer a counter discussion.

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11 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

I think most people know what we mean. I was just following the lead of others.

Why is it that you are always so negative when I'm posting and yet never offer nothing substantial to a discussion?

(shrug)

If you feel something is BS then offer a counter discussion.

Didn't you 'drop the mic' a few posts back ?

When one drops the mic, they usually end it all. But you just keep going ... :blahblah:

Edited by Gotham Kid
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57 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

Why is it that you are always so negative when I'm posting and yet never offer nothing substantial to a discussion?

Here's something then. Double negative construction lol

 

Edited by Gotham Kid
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1 minute ago, Batmanis#1 said:

Owning in my opinion one of the top 3-4 books in the entire hobby in 9.4 would be so cool!!

hell yeah!! 

but Batman is #1 right lol 

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