THE AMAZING FANTASY #15 CLUB 39 39

[alexgross.com]

16 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Definitely no record setting prices on any of these AF 15's in this auction here.

I guess it certainly doesn't help when you have a whole slew of them in various condition grades one after the other in the exact same auction.  Definitely not the best selling situation for the consignors of these copies here.    

i've been wondering about that strategy. it seems that sometimes having 2 or even 3 copies of a book can be beneficial, in that an interested party might end up bidding on a lower grade copy in case they don't win the higher one. however everyone lately seems to be going WAAAY overboard and having 5, 6 and 7 copies of AF15 that are all close in grades, in the same auction. this can only be interpreted as greed by the auction houses/ sites. it obviously hurts pricing, as we're seeing. i suppose it's all gravy for the auction sites, but when will the consignors realize that the market is oversaturated and stop consigning their books? 

[blazingbob]

2 minutes ago, www.alexgross.com said:

i've been wondering about that strategy. it seems that sometimes having 2 or even 3 copies of a book can be beneficial, in that an interested party might end up bidding on a lower grade copy in case they don't win the higher one. however everyone lately seems to be going WAAAY overboard and having 5, 6 and 7 copies of AF15 that are all close in grades, in the same auction. this can only be interpreted as greed by the auction houses/ sites. it obviously hurts pricing, as we're seeing. i suppose it's all gravy for the auction sites, but when will the consignors realize that the market is oversaturated and stop consigning their books? 

"but when will the consignors realize that the market is oversaturated and stop consigning their books".  

I have always wondered why the consignor's who don't get good results never post in these threads.  I'm waiting for the "I took a bath by consigning to "Enter auction house name" thread.  

[Glassman10]

2 hours ago, blazingbob said:

"but when will the consignors realize that the market is oversaturated and stop consigning their books".  

I have always wondered why the consignor's who don't get good results never post in these threads.  I'm waiting for the "I took a bath by consigning to "Enter auction house name" thread.  

I realize that the notion of "Supply and Demand" somehow don't seem to apply when it comes to auctions where the market is glutted. But then, what do I know?  I repeat myself continually for no good reason. . 

[Glassman10]

2 hours ago, www.alexgross.com said:

i've been wondering about that strategy. it seems that sometimes having 2 or even 3 copies of a book can be beneficial, in that an interested party might end up bidding on a lower grade copy in case they don't win the higher one. however everyone lately seems to be going WAAAY overboard and having 5, 6 and 7 copies of AF15 that are all close in grades, in the same auction. this can only be interpreted as greed by the auction houses/ sites. it obviously hurts pricing, as we're seeing. i suppose it's all gravy for the auction sites, but when will the consignors realize that the market is oversaturated and stop consigning their books? 

Indeed , "gravy for the auction sites". Could not have said it better.  It gets worse when the same grade is applied to books that present themselves in totally and obviously different ways. 

[Dark Knight]

Maybe if there was spacing between grades when auctioning off multiple copies where values differ greatly.  I like to use a min. of 2 full grades.  So for example, an auction house having a copy in 2.0, 4.0, 6.0..  The cost between those 3 grades are far apart where it would possibly take different buying pools of buyers (those who can afford grades in the 0.5-2.0, those who can afford one in the 3.0-5.0, etc.).  That way, you can see all the people in that particular group outbid each other coming down to the last second with almost the same range of their max bid.  

If you have books that are in sequential grading order like we see with Heritage, than those underbidders can just put their bids onto the next higher or lower graded copy and pray they win for cheaper.  Of course, this is most effective if books are either all chipped or non-chipped.  Could possibly work if it's a mixed batch..

With regards to the 5.5 copy that sold for cheap, I would've placed a bid if there weren't books in the CL and CC auctions I am interested in.  I like how the 5.5 looks than the 5.0 that sold for higher, primarily because of the colorstrike difference where the 5.5 has a more greyish tone and the 5.0 a yellowish tone.  

[SC22]

Thing is the sellers decide when they want it sold threw HA so HA complies but probably warns them against it first. HA can't tell people when to sell and not to sell. Some of those sellers may have need the funds ASAP.

Is it a smart move....no not at all but the customer is the customer.

Edited November 18, 2017 by SC22

[SC22]

31 minutes ago, Dark Knight said:

Maybe if there was spacing between grades when auctioning off multiple copies where values differ greatly.  I like to use a min. of 2 full grades.  So for example, an auction house having a copy in 2.0, 4.0, 6.0..  The cost between those 3 grades are far apart where it would possibly take different buying pools of buyers (those who can afford grades in the 0.5-2.0, those who can afford one in the 3.0-5.0, etc.).  That way, you can see all the people in that particular group outbid each other coming down to the last second with almost the same range of their max bid.  

If you have books that are in sequential grading order like we see with Heritage, than those underbidders can just put their bids onto the next higher or lower graded copy and pray they win for cheaper.  Of course, this is most effective if books are either all chipped or non-chipped.  Could possibly work if it's a mixed batch..

With regards to the 5.5 copy that sold for cheap, I would've placed a bid if there weren't books in the CL and CC auctions I am interested in.  I like how the 5.5 looks than the 5.0 that sold for higher, primarily because of the colorstrike difference where the 5.5 has a more greyish tone and the 5.0 a yellowish tone.  

Early Christmas gift for the person who won on that CGC 5.5. Went dirt cheap!!

[Dark Knight]

15 minutes ago, SC22 said:

Thing is the sellers decide when they want it sold threw HA so HA complies but probably warns them against it first. HA can't tell people when to sell and not to sell. Some of those sellers may have need the funds ASAP.

Is it a smart move....no not at all but the customer is the customer.

Yup, I totally agree with this.  People have different situations that come up and $ is needed right away.  I don't think an auction house would tell a consignor to not consign their books with them for this particular auction because there are several copies up for sale.  They would advise ahead of time like what CC did last month or so where there was a preview of several copies of AF 15 in the 4.0 range and sure enough, most were taken down and will be auctioned off at a later date.

[SC22]

11 minutes ago, Dark Knight said:

Yup, I totally agree with this.  People have different situations that come up and $ is needed right away.  I don't think an auction house would tell a consignor to not consign their books with them for this particular auction because there are several copies up for sale.  They would advise ahead of time like what CC did last month or so where there was a preview of several copies of AF 15 in the 4.0 range and sure enough, most were taken down and will be auctioned off at a later date.

The only book that seems to have sold within the ''new'' AF15 market price range is the CGC 6.5 based on the MC it had.

HA prefers getting any type of commission than sending a customer to another auction house because the seller wants to sell right away versus waiting for the more opportune moment. That would be just bad business.

Maybe some of these sellers don't know many auction houses (I only learned of a few more in the last 3-4 years myself) that in the end could have produced a better final sale price so they went with the one most people know of witch is HA.

Edited November 18, 2017 by SC22

[VintageComics]

8 hours ago, Glassman10 said:

The CGC issue with MC and subsequent grading vs sales price is real and obvious.  If CGC gives a clean AF 15 a 5.5 and it also gives a chipped 5.5 the same grade, something is fundamentally wrong with the grading process. The venues keep proving this out. The recent sale of the 5.0 for 38K speaks volumes to the reality that buyers pay attention to this issue. The pressure that's necessary at this point is to get the grading process cleaned up.

CGC does not give two books the same grade if one has MC and one doesn't. That's flawed thinking.

The chipping is factored  into the grade, just like every other defect is.

And as it goes with collectibles, the more expensive the item the more picky a buyer is going to be.

Witness the Amazing Fantasy #15 CGC 9.4 that sold at Heritage last year. It went for $450K, a number shocking to some people but a year prior a major dealer had posted ads looking to buy 9.4 copies and was paying $450K for them. Why did this copy 'only' go for $450K? I presume because it had some tanning issues (which were discussed here in detail). So all sorts of defect can affect final realized prices - miswraps, miscuts, tanning, dust and sun shadows, page quality, and of course Marvel chipping.

And that brings me round to another point: You entered into the fray in the midst of the mania. While some defects have always affected sales prices, as mania increases, so does how closely people scrutinize the market. Prior to this year, MC copies did have an effect on prices but I believe the discussion on this site has affected the market moving forward creating an even larger disparity as in my 13+ years on this site, I've never seen the discussion so intense.

And there are still people who don't care about MC (often those who grew up buying these books off newsstands and realizing that it was a part of life).

 

[scooter99]

11 hours ago, Mr bla bla said:

Lemme see: approx 450 mill $ for a Da Vinci splash page.

But it IS also framed!

Restored too.    I might add, it is brilliant. 

[grebal]

Guess I'm a philistine, made me think of Mona Lisa if she were a dude.

[Mr bla bla]

12 hours ago, blazingbob said:

"but when will the consignors realize that the market is oversaturated and stop consigning their books".  

I have always wondered why the consignor's who don't get good results never post in these threads.  I'm waiting for the "I took a bath by consigning to "Enter auction house name" thread.  

Mods would most likely remove such a thread...

Edited November 18, 2017 by Mr bla bla

[Mr bla bla]

4 hours ago, grebal said:

Guess I'm a philistine, made me think of Mona Lisa if she were a dude.

She is!

 

[Glassman10]

I may have entered "The Fray" recently, it was in fact a year ago and I was essentially immersed in this single comic book and its value. I think that Bob made an observation some time back which indeed helps explain why someone would put their comics up for auction in a glut period and that is simple: They really need the money and the auction houses offer cash advances whereas no one else does that. Pretty major motivator. The auction house does fine regardless of how much the client gets burned. 

As to chipping, I've seen an awful lot of AF15's in the last year and interestingly, some are really badly chipped and some are really pristine but have other issues like Spine roll or off white pages. If Chipping is really not considered a defect from long term handling but is viewed as a production flaw, why is it that  some have it and some don't?

The claim is that about 10,000 AF15's exist which puts about 8,000 of them out in the ozone. Is there a statistic from Marvel as to how many were actually printed and did they change inks or paper sources  during the run? Why are some comics clean and others deeply flawed?

It may be the case that as is suggested, Chipping is factored in with other issues. I fail to see that reflected in the final price books are realizing. Non chipped 5.0's sell better than chipped ones as near as I can see and that makes total sense to me.

[gadzukes]

51 minutes ago, Glassman10 said:

As to chipping, I've seen an awful lot of AF15's in the last year and interestingly, some are really badly chipped and some are really pristine but have other issues like Spine roll or off white pages. If Chipping is really not considered a defect from long term handling but is viewed as a production flaw, why is it that  some have it and some don't?

The claim is that about 10,000 AF15's exist which puts about 8,000 of them out in the ozone. Is there a statistic from Marvel as to how many were actually printed and did they change inks or paper sources  during the run? Why are some comics clean and others deeply flawed?

 

My understanding is that MC happened because the printer/binder didn't change the papercutting blades as often as needed.  When the blade was fresh.... nice "free edge" to the comic, as the blade dulled.... the "free edge" started to "pre-chip", and then when the blade was really dulled you got the worst of the worst MC.  Low paper quality probably played a part too.

[Glassman10]

I'm still resistant to the two being equal based on  S**t  happens. It continues to appear that the non chipped books bring better prices in the same grade. That's the market speaking. 

If the chipped book ( which apparently has nothing wrong with it) gets trimmed, the price collapses completely and is fraudulent although it now presents much better. If the fraud is not caught, the book apparently would sell for more. Is that because there's no chipping to be seen? If so, is the chipping bringing down the grade on what the grading company says is not a flaw?

I apologize in advance for being difficult. 

[gregreece]

I may have entered "The Fray" recently, it was in fact a year ago and I was essentially immersed in this single comic book and its value. I think that Bob made an observation some time back which indeed helps explain why someone would put their comics up for auction in a glut period and that is simple: They really need the money and the auction houses offer cash advances whereas no one else does that. Pretty major motivator. The auction house does fine regardless of how much the client gets burned. 

As to chipping, I've seen an awful lot of AF15's in the last year and interestingly, some are really badly chipped and some are really pristine but have other issues like Spine roll or off white pages. If Chipping is really not considered a defect from long term handling but is viewed as a production flaw, why is it that  some have it and some don't?

The claim is that about 10,000 AF15's exist which puts about 8,000 of them out in the ozone. Is there a statistic from Marvel as to how many were actually printed and did they change inks or paper sources  during the run? Why are some comics clean and others deeply flawed?

It may be the case that as is suggested, Chipping is factored in with other issues. I fail to see that reflected in the final price books are realizing. Non chipped 5.0's sell better than chipped ones as near as I can see and that makes total sense to me.

 

This is incorrect. There are several other dealers, including us, that provide cash advances.

[Glassman10]

Thank you for the clarification. I assume that the cash incentives are different from place to place. Is that correct?

Edited November 18, 2017 by Glassman10

[alexgross.com]

5 hours ago, Glassman10 said:

: They really need the money and the auction houses offer cash advances whereas no one else does that. Pretty major motivator. The auction house does fine regardless of how much the client gets burned. 

 

sure, this must be true some of the time. but does everyone with an AF15 suddenly need the money now? it's highly unlikely that they all need the money now. collectors saw the price of this book explode awhile back and thought about it for awhile, and then decided to cash in. except now the market is falling. why they would still choose to 'cash in' now that the book seems to be worth less than 3 months ago is the question i have. they can't all suddenly need the money, come on. if this were the case there would have been just as many books on online auctions last year, which there weren't. there isn't a sudden recession that none of us is aware of. i would guess that soon we'll see supply taper off as collectors clue in that the book has been slumping of late. at least i hope so.