THE AMAZING FANTASY #15 CLUB 39 39

[Jaydogrules]

35 minutes ago, Gotham Kid said:

divine as a verb ( discover by intuition or insight or in their case "guess" )

 

-J.

[namisgr]

Over 100 Mohawk Valleys have been auctioned by Heritage alone.  Can anyone really believe CGC was just guessing when they assigned c/ow or lt/ow to over 85% of them?  Or really believe the CGC numerical grades on these books over the years have stayed as consistent, let alone been more consistent, than the page quality grades?

https://comics.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?No=0&Nty=1&Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&N=52+790+231&Ntt=Mohawk+Valley&limitTo=all

Edited September 26, 2017 by namisgr

[BoomCity]

A cgc 1.5 just finished at 10.5k. Has heavy moisture damage and mould on it. Figured that’d go for quite bit less then a normal 1.5. I would’ve looked at the book and not the grade here. Guess it shows the strength of the book at least with intro copies! 

[comicquant]

3 hours ago, namisgr said:

What, then, were the two independent things that led to all of the Savannah Marvels and early SA Mohawk Valley books having (1) interior edge tanning and (2) poor page quality?

Both tanning (its usually just on the edge because it takes too long to reach the center) and brittleness are a function of paper acidity levels...  Temperature, relative humidity and air-born pollutants effect paper acidity.  Since the cover and interior stock are typically not the same type of paper you often see one affected and not the other.  If you get a double whammy its just bad luck.

[BoomCity]

Have to thank bunky Brian for this bad boy! 

[jabats]

34 minutes ago, BoomCity said:

A cgc 1.5 just finished at 10.5k. Has heavy moisture damage and mould on it. Figured that’d go for quite bit less then a normal 1.5. I would’ve looked at the book and not the grade here. Guess it shows the strength of the book at least with intro copies! 

Yes I was shocked by this.

seems like some bumpy price discovery is now occurring at the entry level.

the 4.0s, 5.0s and up had a major tick upward earlier this year. Perhaps the lower grade market for this book is now capitulating ?

[comicquant]

4 minutes ago, BoomCity said:

Have to thank bunky Brian for this bad boy! 

Man, that is an awesome 2.0!  Congrats!

[BoomCity]

3 minutes ago, comicquant said:

Man, that is an awesome 2.0!  Congrats!

Thanks! Was reading the notes and it has pressable features 

[comicquant]

3 hours ago, blazingbob said:

How they divine page quality?  Is that like a blessing?  

 

[Jaydogrules]

26 minutes ago, BoomCity said:

Have to thank bunky Brian for this bad boy! 

Very nice copy.  

-J.

[Jaydogrules]

33 minutes ago, comicquant said:

Both tanning (its usually just on the edge because it takes too long to reach the center) and brittleness are a function of paper acidity levels...  Temperature, relative humidity and air-born pollutants effect paper acidity.  Since the cover and interior stock are typically not the same type of paper you often see one affected and not the other.  If you get a double whammy its just bad luck.

1)Edge tanning can also be caused by sun/dust shadows and even foxing at times, none of which has any affect on paper suppleness (ie "page quality"). 2) The "PQ" on the label, while already loosey-goosey, is just a snap shot at the time the book was slabbed.   Paper can continue to, or begin to lose acidity within the slab- or not.  3) The structural grade by a grader is subject to a visual confirmation by a modestly experienced eye through the slab, whereas the alleged "PQ" is not, as that is not simply a reflection of the literal "colour" of anything, but the suppleness of paper in hand ("page 'QUALITY'").

-J.

[Bomber-Bob]

2 hours ago, namisgr said:

Over 100 Mohawk Valleys have been auctioned by Heritage alone.  Can anyone really believe CGC was just guessing when they assigned c/ow or lt/ow to over 85% of them?  Or really believe the CGC numerical grades on these books over the years have stayed as consistent, let alone been more consistent, than the page quality grades?

https://comics.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?No=0&Nty=1&Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&N=52+790+231&Ntt=Mohawk+Valley&limitTo=all

Long before CGC existed, I acquired about a dozen Mohawk Valley raw copies. They were bought through CBG ads = not in hand when purchasing. Though structurally pretty nice, the interiors were literally an orange color, not supple, very dry. I heard they were stored in a bedroom closet.  I did not like them and eventually moved them . I think I kept one exceptionally nice one, an Aquaman #1 and eventually submitted it to CGC. It looked at least 9.0 but got a 7.5 from CGC with CR/OW . I called them about the grade and was told the problems were all interior. IMO, if CGC gives a book a CR/OW, it probably deserves it, no doubt about it.  Can CGC waver between OW/W and White on any given day, absolutely. Does this mean CGC is 'grossly inconsistent' ? I think not.

[Bomber-Bob]

30 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

1)Edge tanning can also be caused by sun/dust shadows and even foxing at times, none of which has any affect on paper suppleness (ie "page quality"). 2) The "PQ" on the label, while already loosey-goosey, is just a snap shot at the time the book was slabbed.   Paper can continue to, or begin to lose acidity within the slab- or not.  3) The structural grade by a grader is subject to a visual confirmation by a modestly experienced eye through the slab, whereas the alleged "PQ" is not, as that is not simply a reflection of the literal "colour" of anything, but the suppleness of paper in hand ("page 'QUALITY'").

-J.

Again, why do you attack Page Quality as loosey goosey, can change in the slab, etc. and accept the grade as assigned ? Trust me, the grade can also be loosey goosey and 'deteriorate' in the slab also. BTW, the grade is NOT subject to a visual confirmation as the unseen interior can greatly affect the grade also.  

[Jaydogrules]

12 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Again, why do you attack Page Quality as loosey goosey, can change in the slab, etc. and accept the grade as assigned ? Trust me, the grade can also be loosey goosey and 'deteriorate' in the slab also. BTW, the grade is NOT subject to a visual confirmation as the unseen interior can greatly affect the grade also.  

That's where graders' notes come in.

And people judge book's structural grade all the time on here.  That's the very premise of online auctions, we are buying based on just scans of the book and making an independent judgement of how the book "looks", relative to the assigned grade literally all the time.  Short of a book being shaken to death in the slab, no, the structural grade is not likely subject to change, and even then, it is something that can be ascertained visually through the slab.  You can't do that with "page quality". With that, I am literally at the mercy of whatever CGC decides to call it that day.  

Which is why I give it almost no weight in my buying decisions (barring "brittle", but on even that I'm hearing conflicting accounts and lots of dissatisfaction on how and when CGC decides to call an entire book "brittle").

-J.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Jaydogrules

[Bomber-Bob]

7 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

That's where graders' notes come in.

And people judge book's structural grade all the time on here.  That's the very premise of online auctions, we are buying based on just scans of the book and making an independent judgement of how the book "looks", relative to the assigned grade literally all the time.  Short of a book being shaken to death in the slab, no, the structural grade is not likely subject to change, and even then, it is something that can be ascertained visually through the slab.  You can't do that with "page quality". With that, I am literally at the mercy of whatever CGC decides to call it that day.  

Which is why I give it almost no weight in my buying decisions (barring "brittle", but on even that I'm hearing conflicting accounts and lots of dissatisfaction on how and when CGC decides to call an entire book "brittle").

-J.

You have always stated, and I agreed with your point, that environmental conditions can affect the PQ of a book in the slab. Why, besides being shaken to death in the slab, would environmental conditions also not affect the structural integrity of the book in the slab ? Depending on the quality of the encapsulation, books can suffer staple tears. staple pulls, enhanced creasing, heck gravity alone is taking it's toll on the book. The graders assign the grade with the book in hand at a certain point in time. Do you not think that handling, especially encapsulation, shipping, etc. cannot change that grade ? And regarding your comment on grader's notes, many books don't even have notes. Again, you are just too selective with your arguments to enable anyone to give credence. 

[Jaydogrules]

Just now, Bomber-Bob said:

You have always stated, and I agreed with your point, that environmental conditions can affect the PQ of a book in the slab. Why, besides being shaken to death in the slab, would environmental conditions also not affect the structural integrity of the book in the slab ? Depending on the quality of the encapsulation, books can suffer staple tears. staple pulls, enhanced creasing, heck gravity alone is taking it's toll on the book. The graders assign the grade with the book in hand at a certain point in time. Do you not think that handling, especially encapsulation, shipping, etc. cannot change that grade ? And regarding your comment on grader's notes, many books don't even have notes. Again, you are just too selective with your arguments to enable anyone to give credence. 

These are all visible through the slab.  

And the vast majority of books that aren't modern, and are a 9.4 or below have graders' notes, and I will do you one better and say that many interior defects that are serious enough to impact the grade are actually listed on the label itself (in GA and SA). To suggest otherwise is pure nonsense.  

-J.

[Bomber-Bob]

1 hour ago, BoomCity said:

Thanks! Was reading the notes and it has pressable features 

It is a very nice 2.0 but I would not consider pressing this book. Too many dangling chips ready to fall off, much too delicate. AF15 is so valuable that everyone is tempted to squeeze out a slightly higher grade. It doesn't always work out.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Bomber-Bob
Spelling

[BoomCity]

1 hour ago, jabats said:

Yes I was shocked by this.

seems like some bumpy price discovery is now occurring at the entry level.

the 4.0s, 5.0s and up had a major tick upward earlier this year. Perhaps the lower grade market for this book is now capitulating ?

Must be. More bidders for entry levels. Myself, I would’ve just grabbed that 1.0 signed instead that’s on eBay. 

[BoomCity]

6 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

It is a very nice 2.0 but I would not consider pressing this book. Too many dangling chips ready to fall off, much too delicate. AF15 is so valuable that everyone is tempted to squeeze out a slightly higher grade. It doesn't always work out.

I was going to evaluate when in hand. As you said, although a book could have pressable features, it doesn’t always make sense. 

[Bomber-Bob]

2 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

These are all visible through the slab.  

And the vast majority of books that aren't modern, and are a 9.4 or below have graders' notes, and I will do you one better and say that many interior defects that are serious enough to impact the grade are actually listed on the label itself (in GA and SA). To suggest otherwise is pure nonsense.  

-J.

If the staples are on the vertex of the spine, can you see staple rust ? Can you see the side of the book from a scan. Can you see a spine split ? These are two conditions that can happen while in the slab. Tears can get worse, grow in size. A chip can fall off. So many things are not in the notes or can get worse in the slab that cannot be ascertained from a scan. What gives you the right to call other people's opinions 'nonsense' Are you that much better than the rest of us ? Are you on top of the mountain looking down at us. You obviously have a high opinion of yourself, and never acknowledge anybody else's opinion. Do me a solid and at least stop with the derogatory, demeaning comments when in discussion.