THE AMAZING FANTASY #15 CLUB 39 39

[PRTeckie]

In my younger days, I spent over a year working in the quality control department of a small printing company in Southern California.

On a four color press, the pressmen constantly check the ink wells, adding ink as needed. In addition, they must also make sure the ink is spread evenly across the bottom of the ink tray, and that the tray is adjusted correctly to deliver equal and correct amounts of ink across the entire width of the roller. Because the press is a huge vibrating machine, everything is constantly drifting out of alignment, so constant attentiveness is required to produce quality runs.

A well-staffed, well-tuned, well-monitored press will deliver consistently high quality print runs. A poorly-staffed, poorly-tuned, poorly monitored press will deliver wildly-varying quality runs.

Because many early Marvels have chipping caused by dull cover-separation blades, it seems clear that the printing company(s) Marvel used were not very concerned with the quality of their work. As a result, we see varying degrees of both chipping and color vibrancy on the covers of comics like AF15.

 

 

[gadzukes]

1 hour ago, PRTeckie said:

In my younger days, I spent over a year working in the quality control department of a small printing company in Southern California.

On a four color press, the pressmen constantly check the ink wells, adding ink as needed. In addition, they must also make sure the ink is spread evenly across the bottom of the ink tray, and that the tray is adjusted correctly to deliver equal and correct amounts of ink across the entire width of the roller. Because the press is a huge vibrating machine, everything is constantly drifting out of alignment, so constant attentiveness is required to produce quality runs.

A well-staffed, well-tuned, well-monitored press will deliver consistently high quality print runs. A poorly-staffed, poorly-tuned, poorly monitored press will deliver wildly-varying quality runs.

Because many early Marvels have chipping caused by dull cover-separation blades, it seems clear that the printing company(s) Marvel used were not very concerned with the quality of their work. As a result, we see varying degrees of both chipping and color vibrancy on the covers of comics like AF15.

 

 

I can't remember how covers are set up on sheets before being trimmed.  When Marvel chipping happens is it when the final right edge trim happens?  Or does it happen earlier when there are 4up or 8up covers on a sheet that are being trimmed apart?

[Get Marwood & I]

6 hours ago, PRTeckie said:

In my younger days, I spent over a year working in the quality control department of a small printing company in Southern California.

On a four color press, the pressmen constantly check the ink wells, adding ink as needed. In addition, they must also make sure the ink is spread evenly across the bottom of the ink tray, and that the tray is adjusted correctly to deliver equal and correct amounts of ink across the entire width of the roller. Because the press is a huge vibrating machine, everything is constantly drifting out of alignment, so constant attentiveness is required to produce quality runs.

A well-staffed, well-tuned, well-monitored press will deliver consistently high quality print runs. A poorly-staffed, poorly-tuned, poorly monitored press will deliver wildly-varying quality runs.

Because many early Marvels have chipping caused by dull cover-separation blades, it seems clear that the printing company(s) Marvel used were not very concerned with the quality of their work. As a result, we see varying degrees of both chipping and color vibrancy on the covers of comics like AF15.

 

 

That's interesting.  I like to hear from people with actual experience of the process as it was back in the day. Wouldn't it be great if some old timer wandered in with all the answers. "Sure pardner,  I can tell you which books were printed first. And why those font variations exist too..." 

[Glassman10]

9 hours ago, PRTeckie said:

.

Because many early Marvels have chipping caused by dull cover-separation blades, it seems clear that the printing company(s) Marvel used were not very concerned with the quality of their work. As a result, we see varying degrees of both chipping and color vibrancy on the covers of comics like AF15.

 

 

Would it also be the case that the amount the ink had dried would affect the cutting? It strikes me that an ink which has some slight flexibiity would do better but I don't know that. 

It's always worth keeping in mind that these comics cost 12 cents at the stand after being conceived, drawn, lettered, inked and shipped as galleys to print and then on to distribution. It doesn't sound like a get rich quick scheme.

I too have the problem of qualifying different production problems as being worthy of being ignored. With a book in it's case, the only things you get to see are the front and the back. Chips, corners and Stains.  For me it's very strange that the chips are/aren't factored in. I've seen some pretty terrible chipping on some 5.0's that say white pages...

When mine was slabbed and then sold, I had taken pictures of every single interior page of the book and I offered them to the client. The client was not interested. That surprised me.

[gadzukes]

1 hour ago, Glassman10 said:

When mine was slabbed and then sold, I had taken pictures of every single interior page of the book and I offered them to the client. The client was not interested. That surprised me.

I like the idea of pictures of inner pages.   My 7.0 has "To Dashing David.  Excelsior! Stan Lee + Spidey - '74" written on the splash page.  I took a pic of it before encapsulation because I figured any future owner would want to see it.  I would be shocked if they wouldn't want to see that.

[VintageComics]

13 hours ago, gadzukes said:

CGC treats their grading for Marvel chipped comics as if the chipping wasn't there, because the chipping is a "manufacturing defect".

I don't know why people keep repeating this.  No they do not.

The amount of chipping affects the grade directly.

It may not affect it as much as you want it do, but in my experience of grading books for 15 years, it definitely make a measurable difference.

 

[VintageComics]

14 hours ago, gadzukes said:

I can't remember how covers are set up on sheets before being trimmed.  When Marvel chipping happens is it when the final right edge trim happens?  Or does it happen earlier when there are 4up or 8up covers on a sheet that are being trimmed apart?

Marvel chipping happens during the final trimming process.

The covers are separated from sheets, matched to interiors, stapled and folded and then trimmed on 3 sides.

It's during this final trimming of the 3 sides that the chipping happens - and you can prove this because often the chips or prechips from the cover match the interior pages.

[chrisco37]

Right.   They do deduct for it, just not as hard as they do for other defects (stains, for instance). 

Edited November 22, 2017 by chrisco37

[Get Marwood & I]

4 hours ago, gadzukes said:

I like the idea of pictures of inner pages.   My 7.0 has "To Dashing David.  Excelsior! Stan Lee + Spidey - '74" written on the splash page.  I took a pic of it before encapsulation because I figured any future owner would want to see it.  I would be shocked if they wouldn't want to see that.

Is that mentioned in the CGC notes? 

[Spiderturtle]

3 hours ago, VintageComics said:

I don't know why people keep repeating this.  No they do not.

The amount of chipping affects the grade directly.

It may not affect it as much as you want it do, but in my experience of grading books for 15 years, it definitely make a measurable difference.

 

No matter the grade except 1.5s and below, if i had a chipped copy i would need to convince myself that the mc is not an eye sore, kinda pretend its not there. Other defects is easier to pretend but mc.....

[Bomber-Bob]

18 minutes ago, chrisco37 said:

Right.   They do deduct for it, just not as hard as they do for other defects (stains, for instance). 

Agreed. So the 'game' is to make CGC think your impact chip is original to the book and you will get a higher grade. I've seen it happen, first hand.  It works best on corner chips. Smooth out the wrinkles around the chip and they may assume it is original.  Got a beautiful book with a lone, small corner crease ? Clip the crease completely off and they make take it as original. In the same vein that pressing cannot be detected, how can a chip be designated as original ? A flaw is a flaw and CGC should not guess as to the origination of that flaw. This kind of grading makes the system flawed and susceptible to antics. 

[gadzukes]

4 hours ago, Marwood & I said:

Is that mentioned in the CGC notes? 

It's mentioned on the label.  

[Glassman10]

5 hours ago, VintageComics said:

I don't know why people keep repeating this.  No they do not.

 

 

I keep reading around here and it seems to me that CGC does not and will not give out its basis for any type of grading that occurs or is that a misunderstanding on my part? Over the last year I repeatedly see that CGC considers chipping to be a production defect that is not affecting grade. You suggest that isn't true and I'm OK with that but what I see in photos of sales, chipped copies of the same grade sell for less than non chipped copies of the same grade. That suggests that the market is ignoring the valuation a grade gives a book when it's getting monetized which, near as I can see is what the grading process is really all about: A system by which people can agree on relative value. Simply put that does not appear to be what's going on based on final hammer price or whatever you want to refer to the sale as. Chipping devalues a book and sales reflect it despite the grade.

[VintageComics]

5 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Agreed. So the 'game' is to make CGC think your impact chip is original to the book and you will get a higher grade. I've seen it happen, first hand.  It works best on corner chips. Smooth out the wrinkles around the chip and they may assume it is original.  Got a beautiful book with a lone, small corner crease ? Clip the crease completely off and they make take it as original. In the same vein that pressing cannot be detected, how can a chip be designated as original ? A flaw is a flaw and CGC should not guess as to the origination of that flaw. This kind of grading makes the system flawed and susceptible to antics. 

How do you know that the improvement of the rest of the book did not cause the grade increase?

 

[VintageComics]

1 hour ago, Glassman10 said:

I keep reading around here and it seems to me that CGC does not and will not give out its basis for any type of grading that occurs or is that a misunderstanding on my part?

CGC does not give out it's grading standards, although guys like me who spend a lot of time studying and learning them have been able to reverse engineer them with good success.

1 hour ago, Glassman10 said:

Over the last year I repeatedly see that CGC considers chipping to be a production defect that is not affecting grade. You suggest that isn't true and I'm OK with that but what I see in photos of sales, chipped copies of the same grade sell for less than non chipped copies of the same grade.

I don't understand why you are confusing grading standards with valuation.

1 hour ago, Glassman10 said:

That suggests that the market is ignoring the valuation a grade gives a book when it's getting monetized which, near as I can see is what the grading process is really all about: A system by which people can agree on relative value.

The grader's job is to grade the book, not agree on value.

Valuation is based on what the market is willing to pay.

1 hour ago, Glassman10 said:

Simply put that does not appear to be what's going on based on final hammer price or whatever you want to refer to the sale as. Chipping devalues a book and sales reflect it despite the grade.

Of course it does. If people choose to pay less for chipped copies, it affects sales value. We already covered this and nobody is stating otherwise.

But many things devalue a book. From reading this thread, some people assign different values based on page quality, clean / smudged greys, centering (witness the discussion on the TOS #39 thread where people are discussing 'cut off quotations and blue box at the bottom of the book').

So MANY things affect valuation outside of the technical grade.

Chipping just happens to be the hot topic right now because people are scrutinizing a book that has increased in price unlike any other in memory.

And I will add that there are people who don't mind chipping. They are out there.

[Sweet Lou 14]

51 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

witness the discussion on the TOS #39 thread where people are discussing 'cut off quotations and blue box at the bottom of the book'

You sure are making a mountain out of a mole hill on this one.  For any key book that has art elements occupying the very edges, people will notice and express some curiosity about how variations in the cover cut / wrap crop the image a bit differently.  I don't see any evidence that anyone is valuing the variations differently, and (respectfully) I don't understand why you've chosen to harp on it when everyone else has dropped it.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Sweet Lou 14

[VintageComics]

1 minute ago, Sweet Lou 14 said:

52 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

witness the discussion on the TOS #39 thread where people are discussing 'cut off quotations and blue box at the bottom of the book'

You sure are making a mountain out of a mole hill on this one.  For any key book that has art elements occupying the very edges, people will notice and express some curiosity about how variations in the cover cut / wrap crop the image a bit differently.  I don't see any evidence that anyone is valuing the variations differently, and (respectfully) I don't understand why you've chosen to harp on it when everyone else has dropped it.

I'm not making a mountain out of a mole hill or harping (or criticizing for that matter).

The example you focused on was one of many examples (I also included chipping and page quality, etc) which I used to show Glassman10 that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, that everyone has different things they like and don't like about comics and that everyone values them differently.

Are they not valued differently? If something about a book causes a bidder to drop out I would say it has an effect on valuation.

Anyhow, I'm sorry that you took it as a criticism. It was not intended that way nor was it posted that way.

 

[SC22]

AF15 CGC 1.5 sells for 11 255$ and AF15 CGC 0.5 sells for 6106$.

http://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fsearch.asp%3Fwhere%3Dsell%26title%3Damazing%2Bfantasy%2B15%26GO2%3DGO%26ItemType%3DCB&id=1206459

http://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fsearch.asp%3Fwhere%3Dsell%26title%3Damazing%2Bfantasy%2B15%26GO2%3DGO%26ItemType%3DCB&id=1206460

[SC22]

This AF15 CGC 4.0 restored went for 10 500$.

http://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fsearch.asp%3Fwhere%3Dsell%26title%3Damazing%2Bfantasy%2B15%26GO2%3DGO%26ItemType%3DCB&id=1226105

That is almost the same price as a Hulk 1 4.0 blue label.

Edited November 23, 2017 by SC22

[Sweet Lou 14]

12 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

I'm not making a mountain out of a mole hill or harping (or criticizing for that matter).

The example you focused on was one of many examples (I also included chipping and page quality, etc) which I used to show Glassman10 that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, that everyone has different things they like and don't like about comics and that everyone values them differently.

Are they not valued differently? If something about a book causes a bidder to drop out I would say it has an effect on valuation.

Anyhow, I'm sorry that you took it as a criticism. It was not intended that way nor was it posted that way.

 

No worries, and thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I don't mean to hijack the AF 15 thread, but I did take what you said in the other thread as a bit of a criticism, i.e. "I don't care about these things and neither should you."  My point (there and here) is that I spent a fair amount of money to buy my 8.5 TOS #39, and it only made sense for me to ask around a bit to gauge whether the market felt strongly about this particular question before making such a substantial investment.  The reaction to my questions seemed to indicate that it wasn't a big deal.

I'm a big eye appeal guy.  I have unfortunately learned the hard way that a number of books I bought raw 10 or more years ago didn't get the CGC grade I was expecting, perhaps because I paid too much attention to how the front cover looked and not enough attention to other defects.  As a result, I have too many books in my collection that would be considered really gorgeous 7.0s and 8.5s.  Live and learn.

But my obsession with eye appeal certainly seems to have paid off with the 5.0 AF 15 I bought, which (if I ever sell it) I believe would fetch a value on the upper end of the 5.0 range based on the increasing differentiation I'm seeing among discerning collectors.

Anyway that's just one person's perspective -- I hope we understand each other a bit better now.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Sweet Lou 14