How much of a premium are we talking for newsstand issues v/s direct editions? 10 10

[mr_highgrade]

They also include it on their labels.

 

[mec3437]

8 hours ago, ThothAmon said:

As I was researching the value of this Punisher101 (really no newsstand comps) I learned that MCS does not differentiate between newsstand and direct. Here is their statement 

“Note about "Newsstand" vs "Direct" editions: some comics printed during this time period were published for sale in both the direct market (comic stores) and at newsstand locations such as grocery stores or convenience stores. In many cases, the only difference between the two versions is the presence of either a barcode or small logo where the barcode would otherwise be. Most collectors consider both versions to be of equal value. If the only difference is the presence of the logo or the barcode, we do not distinguish between newsstand or direct editions, so it is possible that the comic you receive could have a barcode even if our listing image shows a logo, or vice versa.

In cases where there is a significant difference between the newsstand and direct editions, such as one having a foil cover, different color scheme, or other clear variation, we will list the newsstand and direct editions as two separate listings and they will be clearly labeled as such, so you will be able to select which version you want.”

If anyone knows Buddy Saunders at MCS lets get him on the bandwagon as well.  I think that in order for this niche collecting to really take off CGC needs to get on board in a big way with its census and labeling. So far it seems hit and miss. Not sure it’s necessarily in CGC’s best interest to do so where they would effectively be relegating 95% or so of the last 25 years of comics to second class status?  Just happy that I, apparently, have lots of them!

While it would be nice if MCS broke out the NS vs DE in their stock, they've had a few issues with identifying Canadian newsstand issues vs the normal DE books.  It could be honest mistake, but these were two I noticed that have actual item pics and not generic pics.  While I'm more of a pence and Canadian newsstand collector, I think it would be awesome if MCS distinguished their direct and NS copies.  Chuck does it, but I would be 1000x more comfortable buying from Buddy.  

 

[valiantman]

8 hours ago, ThothAmon said:

In cases where there is a significant difference between the newsstand and direct editions, such as one having a foil cover, different color scheme, or other clear variation, we will list the newsstand and direct editions as two separate listings and they will be clearly labeled as such, so you will be able to select which version you want.”

"Direct edition" and "deluxe edition" are not the same thing.  "Newsstand edition" and "standard edition" are not the same thing.

It's possible for a newsstand to have a foil cover (Venom Lethal Protector #1 with barcode), and it's possible for a direct edition to have no enhancement (Superman #75 ripped cape cover without barcode).

When regular collectors mistake "newsstand edition" for "standard edition", that's not surprising.  When professionals think they're just interchangeable terms, we've got the blind leading the people who can't see.

[MGsimba77]

1 hour ago, mr_highgrade said:

CGC actually does list the different newsstand price variants on it's census.

 

https://www.cgccomics.com/census/grades_standard.asp?title=Amazing+Spider-Man&issue=576&publisher=Marvel+Comics&year=2009&issuedate=1/09

I think CGC focuses on the cases where theirs more of a difference than just the barcode in the break out information. They have a similar approach to MCS. Those differences which were mostly cover pricing began sometime in the 90's if I'm not mistaken?

That's great but some may be more interested in pre 90's where there's no difference other than barcode 

 

[MGsimba77]

28 minutes ago, valiantman said:

9 hours ago, ThothAmon said:

In cases where there is a significant difference between the newsstand and direct editions, such as one having a foil cover, different color scheme, or other clear variation, we will list the newsstand and direct editions as two separate listings and they will be clearly labeled as such, so you will be able to select which version you want.”

"Direct edition" and "deluxe edition" are not the same thing.  "Newsstand edition" and "standard edition" are not the same thing.

It's possible for a newsstand to have a foil cover (Venom Lethal Protector #1 with barcode), and it's possible for a direct edition to have no enhancement (Superman #75 ripped cape cover without barcode).

When regular collectors mistake "newsstand edition" for "standard edition", that's not surprising.  When professionals think they're just interchangeable terms, we've got the blind leading the people who can't see.

Yeah exactly! MCS is pretty much saying they'll distinguish the obvious variant editions which even GPA does with their sales data. How much of a value difference is there really when you talk about raw copies of UPCs here? Wouldn't those differences matter only post certification where they're 9.8 or 9.6?

If there were really a chance MCS would be able to mark up a raw Lethal protector 1 UPC in NM+ for example wouldn't they make every effort to make that clear to the customer? They probably figure it's not worth the trouble when dealing with raw books where a NM+ doesn't guarantee a 9.8

[valiantman]

Cross-posting from the "show your Copper Newsstand" thread, since it's really a discussion for here:

-----

CGC's competitor posted a census (population report) for the first time yesterday. 

They did about three years of grading without specifying Direct / Newsstand, but you can isolate the most recent 3 years where there are separate Direct / Newsstand counts...

I'm still evaluating, but generally (using 500 different comics with 45,000 total submissions), they have graded:

1979 = 60% Newsstand (consistent for ASM #194, Iron Man #128)

1980 = 50% Newsstand (New Teen Titans #2 is 60% Newsstand, Savage She-Hulk #1 is 40% Newsstand)

1981 = 40% Newsstand (Avengers Annual #10 is 20% Newsstand, Daredevil #168 is 60% Newsstand)

1982 = 25% Newsstand (Wolverine Limited #1 is 25% NS, Hulk #271 is 55% NS, GI Joe #1 is 45% NS)

1983 = 40% Newsstand (New Mutants #1 is 20% NS, ASM #238 is 40% NS, Thor #337 is 70% NS)

1984 = 30% Newsstand (ASM #252 is 70% NS, Secret Wars 8 is 20% NS, Teen TItans #44 is 25% NS)

1985 = 15% Newsstand (Web of Spider-Man #1 is 10% NS, ASM #265 is 35% NS)

1986 = 21% Newsstand (X-Factor #5 is 13% NS, X-Factor #6 is 21% NS, Punisher #1 is 30% NS)

1987 = 24% Newsstand (X-Men #221 is 15% NS, ASM #289 is 40% NS, Batman #404 is 5% NS)

1988 = 20% Newsstand (ASM #300 is 33% NS, Wolverine #1 is 14% NS, Hulk #340 is 19% NS)

1989 = 16% Newsstand (X-Men #244 is 13% NS, ASM #316 is 21% NS, Wolverine #10 is 21% NS)

1990 = 19% Newsstand (X-Men #266 is 22% NS, NM #87 is 19% NS)

1991 = 14% Newsstand (NM #98 is 24% NS, Infinity Gauntlet #1 is 9% NS)

1992 = 22% Newsstand (ASM #361 is 40%, Spawn #1 is 9%)

1993 = 12% Newsstand (Batman Adventures #12 is 16%, Venom Lethal Protector #1 is 11%, Spawn #9 is 4% NS)

1994 = 11% Newsstand 

1995 = 15% Newsstand

1996 - 2000 = not enough data (collectively, they are 10% NS, and Deadpool #1 (1997) is also 10% NS)

after 2000 = not specified by either grading company (unless there is also a price difference)

I believe that these are actually "too high" as far as estimates go, because CGC's competitor offers the Newsstand label and CGC does not.  So, we should expect direct editions to be submitted "equally" (at whatever ratio) between the two companies, but we should expect newsstand editions to be submitted "much more often" to the one company that will make the notation on the label.    It might be fair to cut these Newsstand rate estimates, maybe even half of what is shown, except Spawn #9 because CGC recognizes Spawn #9 Newsstand (6% at CGC).

Higher grades for newsstand appear to be 9.2+ and they are significantly less populated than 9.0 and below for newsstand (relative to direct editions at the same grades).

All this is based on just a few hours of data crunching, so things may be much different/clearer if someone is reading this post long after May 1, 2020.

Edited May 1, 2020 by valiantman

[Corona smith]

54 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Cross-posting from the "show your Copper Newsstand" thread, since it's really a discussion for here:

-----

CGC's competitor posted a census (population report) for the first time yesterday. 

They did about three years of grading without specifying Direct / Newsstand, but you can isolate the most recent 3 years where there are separate Direct / Newsstand counts...

I'm still evaluating, but generally (using 500 different comics with 45,000 total submissions), they have graded:

1979 = 60% Newsstand (consistent for ASM #194, Iron Man #128)

1980 = 50% Newsstand (New Teen Titans #2 is 60% Newsstand, Savage She-Hulk #1 is 40% Newsstand)

1981 = 40% Newsstand (Avengers Annual #10 is 20% Newsstand, Daredevil #168 is 60% Newsstand)

1982 = 25% Newsstand (Wolverine Limited #1 is 25% NS, Hulk #271 is 55% NS, GI Joe #1 is 45% NS)

1983 = 40% Newsstand (New Mutants #1 is 20% NS, ASM #238 is 40% NS, Thor #337 is 70% NS)

1984 = 30% Newsstand (ASM #252 is 70% NS, Secret Wars 8 is 20% NS, Teen TItans #44 is 25% NS)

1985 = 15% Newsstand (Web of Spider-Man #1 is 10% NS, ASM #265 is 35% NS)

1986 = 21% Newsstand (X-Factor #5 is 13% NS, X-Factor #6 is 21% NS, Punisher #1 is 30% NS)

1987 = 24% Newsstand (X-Men #221 is 15% NS, ASM #289 is 40% NS, Batman #404 is 5% NS)

1988 = 20% Newsstand (ASM #300 is 33% NS, Wolverine #1 is 14% NS, Hulk #340 is 19% NS)

1989 = 16% Newsstand (X-Men #244 is 13% NS, ASM #316 is 21% NS, Wolverine #10 is 21% NS)

1990 = 19% Newsstand (X-Men #266 is 22% NS, NM #87 is 19% NS)

1991 = 14% Newsstand (NM #98 is 24% NS, Infinity Gauntlet #1 is 9% NS)

1992 = 22% Newsstand (ASM #361 is 40%, Spawn #1 is 9%)

1993 = 12% Newsstand (Batman Adventures #12 is 16%, Venom Lethal Protector #1 is 11%, Spawn #9 is 4% NS)

1994 = 11% Newsstand 

1995 = 15% Newsstand

1996 - 2000 = not enough data (collectively, they are 10% NS, and Deadpool #1 (1997) is also 10% NS)

after 2000 = not specified by either grading company (unless there is also a price difference)

I believe that these are actually "too high" as far as estimates go, because CGC's competitor offers the Newsstand label and CGC does not.  So, we should expect direct editions to be submitted "equally" (at whatever ratio) between the two companies, but we should expect newsstand editions to be submitted "much more often" to the one company that will make the notation on the label.    It might be fair to cut these Newsstand rate estimates, maybe even half of what is shown, except Spawn #9 because CGC recognizes Spawn #9 Newsstand (6% at CGC).

Higher grades for newsstand appear to be 9.2+ and they are significantly less populated than 9.0 and below for newsstand (relative to direct editions at the same grades).

All this is based on just a few hours of data crunching, so things may be much different/clearer if someone is reading this post long after May 1, 2020.

Thanks for all the information and the  work put into it!! My main interest with newsstands are Post 2000 and they’re really really hard to find in high grade. I will always pick up the newsstands if older books if given a choice. 

[valiantman]

15 minutes ago, Corona smith said:

Thanks for all the information and the  work put into it!! My main interest with newsstands are Post 2000 and they’re really really hard to find in high grade. I will always pick up the newsstands if older books if given a choice. 

For whatever reason, CGC's competitor hasn't noted post-2000 Newsstands, but CGC has noted several due to the cover price differences.

I believe it's fair to say (in the most general terms) that both Marvel and DC probably stopped their newsstand programs when sales were around 2% of the direct editions.  It's also fair to say that both companies most likely went into 2001 with newsstand sales around 5% or 6%.

Therefore, a quick estimate for newsstand rates post-2000 would be 5% to 6% in 2001, maybe 3% to 4% around 2010, and probably around 2% at the end (2013 Marvel, 2017 DC).

I don't believe there's solid proof that newsstands were down to 1% of their direct edition counterparts, but 2% isn't out of the question.  For post-2000, when in doubt (or if you're spending money on a guess), guess 5% until there's solid evidence it's closer to 2%.

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, valiantman said:

I believe that these are actually "too high" as far as estimates go

Estimates of what, exactly?

[valiantman]

5 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

1 hour ago, valiantman said:

I believe that these are actually "too high" as far as estimates go

Estimates of what, exactly?

Spawn #1 newsstand is 9% of the newsstand + direct submissions to CGC's competitor.  Should we estimate that there is 1 Spawn #1 newsstand for every 10 Spawn #1 direct editions out in the world?  No, that's too high of a newsstand estimate.  There's probably half as many Spawn #1 newsstands (half of 9% - closer to 1 newsstand for every 20 direct).  If there are a million Spawn #1 direct editions out in the world, it's probably 50,000 newsstands (5%) or 60,000 (6%), but probably not 100,000 (9%) and it's probably much higher than 20,000 (2%).

Edited May 1, 2020 by valiantman

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, valiantman said:

Spawn #1 newsstand is 9% of the newsstand + direct submissions to CGC's competitor.  Should we estimate that there is 1 Spawn #1 newsstand for every 10 Spawn #1 direct editions out in the world?  No, that's too high of a newsstand estimate.  There's probably half as many Spawn #1 newsstands (half of 9% - closer to 1 newsstand for every 20 direct).  If there are a million Spawn #1 direct editions out in the world, it's probably 50,000 newsstands (5%) or 60,000 (6%), but probably not 100,000 (9%) and it's probably much higher than 20,000 (2%).

Okay. If you only look at individual books like that, it makes some sense. But if you're looking at years, you have to look at what issues are submitted and their distribution status.

I agree that 10% is almost certainly too high (though not completely unreasonable) an estimate for Spawn #1 specifically, but only because of the insane amount of copies ordered by comic shops, which was a lot more than a million.

I'm also surprised at the ASM #252 and Thor #337 numbers, even though I know there should be tons of Newsstand copies of those issues around.

[valiantman]

2 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

I'm also surprised at the ASM #252 and Thor #337 numbers, even though I know there should be tons of Newsstand copies of those issues around.

It has been mentioned before, but the delay of a couple weeks before newsstands arrived looks to be really important.  Any book which "got hot immediately" for comic shops almost certainly got scooped up (soon after) as newsstand editions, by the same people who normally used comic shops (both collectors and shop owners). As a result, those "immediately hot" newsstands survived in higher quantities and higher grades than the newsstand books which were just late copies of books still available at the comic shop.  The "normal newsstand cycle" of damages and returns was "direct-disrupted" if comic shops were sold out immediately (within a week or two).

 

As we get more data, it will be obvious which books were hot immediately (nationally), even if individual collectors don't remember it happening locally.

Edited May 2, 2020 by valiantman

[mr_highgrade]

5 hours ago, valiantman said:

It has been mentioned before, but the delay of a couple weeks before newsstands arrived looks to be really important.  Any book which "got hot immediately" for comic shops almost certainly got scooped up (soon after) as newsstand editions, by the same people who normally used comic shops (both collectors and shop owners). As a result, those "immediately hot" newsstands survived in higher quantities and higher grades than the newsstand books which were just late copies of books still available at the comic shop.  The "normal newsstand cycle" of damages and returns was "direct-disrupted" if comic shops were sold out immediately (within a week or two).

 

As we get more data, it will be obvious which books were hot immediately (nationally), even if individual collectors don't remember it happening locally.

Back in the 80's & 90's if I missed out on a hot book because it sold out, or the shop would limit it to one per customer, I used hit up the newsstands 3 weeks later to snap up the books that I missed out on. My biggest score were 27 copies of ASM #252, 22 copies of Thor #337 & 127 copies of ASM #361. I also used to try to pick up at least one or more newsie of every ASM, Uncanny X-men & Star Wars books. 

After the 2000's I started to slow down and they also became harder to find. I would occasionally pick them up at Hudson Newsstands in Grand Central or Penn Station. 

[valiantman]

5 hours ago, mr_highgrade said:

Back in the 80's & 90's if I missed out on a hot book because it sold out, or the shop would limit it to one per customer, I used hit up the newsstands 3 weeks later to snap up the books that I missed out on. My biggest score were 27 copies of ASM #252, 22 copies of Thor #337 & 127 copies of ASM #361. I also used to try to pick up at least one or more newsie of every ASM, Uncanny X-men & Star Wars books. 

After the 2000's I started to slow down and they also became harder to find. I would occasionally pick them up at Hudson Newsstands in Grand Central or Penn Station. 

That's a great example of what the census data shows.  Those three books "jump up" in numbers compared to other books from their years, so you were not the only one to do that.  How were the conditions on the books?

[mr_highgrade]

1 hour ago, valiantman said:

That's a great example of what the census data shows.  Those three books "jump up" in numbers compared to other books from their years, so you were not the only one to do that.  How were the conditions on the books?

If I arrived at the newsstands the day of their initial release I would only grab the best possible copies. The rest I would leave behind. Most of those graded out between 9.4 to 9.8. On the Spidey #361 I grabbed everything in sight, including some undesirables.  

In the 2000's and onward I would only buy strict NM/MT copies. I wouldn't even let the cashiers at Hudson Newsstands handle my books. I would hold them and let them scan the bar code.  Those books always came back from CGC 9.8.

 

[mr_highgrade]

Here's a small sample. 

 

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

18 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

Okay. If you only look at individual books like that, it makes some sense. But if you're looking at years, you have to look at what issues are submitted and their distribution status.

I agree that 10% is almost certainly too high (though not completely unreasonable) an estimate for Spawn #1 specifically, but only because of the insane amount of copies ordered by comic shops, which was a lot more than a million.

I'm also surprised at the ASM #252 and Thor #337 numbers, even though I know there should be tons of Newsstand copies of those issues around.

If you look at the list, the books that seem to have a smaller percentage of newsstands submitted compared to others from the same year are ones that would have had a lot of speculation anticipated before the release (Wolverine #1, New Mutants #1, etc.). I think the books that were a slow burn are probably the ones that give the best idea of the proportion of directs to newsstands that were out there.

[valiantman]

24 minutes ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

If you look at the list, the books that seem to have a smaller percentage of newsstands submitted compared to others from the same year are ones that would have had a lot of speculation anticipated before the release (Wolverine #1, New Mutants #1, etc.). I think the books that were a slow burn are probably the ones that give the best idea of the proportion of directs to newsstands that were out there.

I think you're right.  The more I think about it, the more it makes sense that the direct market order/release activity actually drove both markets.

Three obvious scenarios for today's "big books" based on what was happening at ordering/release time:
1) The direct market anticipated a "big book" and ordered plenty of copies, having extra direct editions through the newsstand cycle (causing no unusual direct market-driven activity at newsstands).  (Wolverine Limited #1, New Mutants #1, Spawn #1)

2) The direct market underordered a "big book", selling out, causing direct market customers/retailers to scoop up newsstand copies (essentially collected/protected as if they were always direct editions) when the book reached the newsstand a couple weeks later. (ASM #252, Thor #337, ASM #361)

3)  The book was not a "big book" until much later, having a regular direct order at comic shops, having a regular newsstand cycle.  (New Teen Titans #2, Hulk #271, X-Men #221)

It's also pretty obvious that "smaller newsstands" didn't receive every title, so while we might be able to calculate a ratio for generic issues of Marvel from 1986, we should expect headliners like Spider-Man to have been available at EVERY newsstand location but perhaps some newsstands didn't receive lesser-known titles like New Mutants, etc., but it's likely that comic shops were ordering direct editions of the full Marvel line.

[mr_highgrade]

Newsstands after the 2000's carried mostly Spidey's, X-Men, Thor, Avengers & Hulk. For DC's it was the usual suspects,  Supes, Action,  Bats & Tec's and with a few JLA's added to the mix.

In the 80's & the mid 90's it was everything and the kitchen sink.

Edited May 2, 2020 by mr_highgrade

[valiantman]

1 hour ago, mr_highgrade said:

Newsstands after the 2000's carried mostly Spidey's, X-Men, Thor, Avengers & Hulk. For DC's it was the usual suspects,  Supes, Action,  Bats & Tec's and with a few JLA's added to the mix.

In the 80's & the mid 90's it was everything and the kitchen sink.

I believe you, but you're talking about NYC (I think).  There weren't so many newsstand choices in middle USA.  I remember about 5 Marvel titles, about 5 DC, a couple Archie (high school teens as well as TMNT/Sonic), and something weirder (which varied) like Now, Continuity, plus Mad and Cracked.