How much of a premium are we talking for newsstand issues v/s direct editions? 10 10

[bababooey]

13 minutes ago, valiantman said:

I don't know about all those details, but being a 20+ year Ebay customer in comics, it's pretty clear that what's readily available on the largest online venue for back issues tends to match pretty well with this graphic.  The graphic reflects more of "what is" and not "what was". Exceptions are probably everywhere, since I know for a fact that 1996 Valiant newsstand is tiny while 1996 Marvel newsstand is comparatively common.

So it's extant copies available for sale now?  So that means Valiant newsies were common as dirt before 1980!   

I only point out my issue with the specificity of the dates and implied zero of the left axis because your graphic has been adopted by other parties, on their blog and on ebay, as an indicator of newsstand rarity by print run.  

[Shoomanfoo]

53 minutes ago, valiantman said:

I don't know about all those details, but being a 20+ year Ebay customer in comics, it's pretty clear that what's readily available on the largest online venue for back issues tends to match pretty well with this graphic.  The graphic reflects more of "what is" and not "what was". Exceptions are probably everywhere, since I know for a fact that 1996 Valiant newsstand is tiny while 1996 Marvel newsstand is comparatively common.

All valuable info but I highly doubt that any newsies where printed 50/50 in 1998.

Im going by perceived observation like you Valiantman. 

I know what I see today on the bay and I know what I saw on the stands in 1998...with my own eyes.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, valiantman said:

Still a beautiful visualization of vague exactness...

That graph should include some verbage about copies printed/extant. It can be interpreted as "value" by those who don't know.

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, bababooey said:

The trouble I have with that graph is that the date on the right pretty much equates the 1996-1998's newsstands with the "whitman diamond era" directs.  I don't feel they're comparable.  The bottom axis gives specificity to equate the newsstand decline as approaching the same very small market share that the direct market had prior to 1978.  While the simplicity is nice the message should also be clarified since my assumption is that your graph is intended to reflect sales after returns not print runs, since newsstand print runs for a strong newsstand title like ASM were 50/50 as late as 1998 & direct was only 2/3rds of the print runs as late as 2002.   Just sayin'

Couple of observations:

1. The Marvel "diamond" era weren't "Whitmans", as the DCs of the era were.

2. Print runs for newsstands are functionally irrelevant (as you imply), because of the returns system. The only hard data we have are the SOOs and whatever numbers we may have from the Direct market, which are incomplete and inadequate. For example...we don't know, because there is no distinction made in the SOOs, how much of the "avg print run" for 1998 (220K) was Direct and how much was newsstand, unless we have relevant numbers from the Direct market. We know that Diamond pre-orders for #441, for example, were 69K. We know from the SOO that 99K were returned (which is entirely newsstands.)

So...we can loosely...LOOSELY...estimate that for a book like ASM #441 had about 70,000 copies sold through the Direct Market, and 50,000 newsstand copies sold, or a ratio of about 7/10 newsstands to Direct, rather than 50/50.

This is one of the drawbacks and misrepresentations at JJM's Comichron. When he says that "45%" or the print run was returned, that's technically accurate, but doesn't tell the story. The actual return rate (since Directs can never be returned) is 67%. Print runs for newsstands have literally no meaning, because it paints a completely inaccurate picture of what actually exists. The newsstand print run for ASM #441 was around 150,000. But only around 50,000 managed to survive, with even fewer today due to attrition.

[Lazyboy]

2 hours ago, Shoomanfoo said:

I highly doubt that any newsies where printed 50/50 in 1998.

Yeah, it's much more likely that Newsstands were around 65% of the print run.

[Lazyboy]

39 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The newsstand print run for ASM #441 was around 150,000. But only around 50,000 managed to survive, with even fewer today due to attrition.

Except that we'll never know how many "unsold" Newsstand copies escaped their fate of destruction. We know they were supposed to be returned/destroyed, but we also know that didn't always happen.

[the blob]

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 5:48 AM, Heronext said:

It was 1986.  I was in my LCS and first learned about newsstand vs. direct market editions.  By this time I had been collecting by pull list for a couple of years.

My 14-year old brow furrowed.  Should I start buying the 20 or so titles I collected off the newsstand, in case in the future those editions become more collectible?

”There’s no difference,” the shop owner said.  I didn’t quite believe him, but thinking a pull list is just easier I put the notion to rest and never thought of it again.

True story!  Amazing sometimes what survives as a vivid memory.

In 1986 there really wasn't a difference for the most part.

[RockMyAmadeus]

53 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The newsstand print run for ASM #441 was around 150,000. But only around 50,000 managed to survive, with even fewer today due to attrition.

Except that we'll never know how many "unsold" Newsstand copies escaped their fate of destruction. We know they were supposed to be returned/destroyed, but we also know that didn't always happen.

also true.

[Shoomanfoo]

1 hour ago, Lazyboy said:

Yeah, it's much more likely that Newsstands were around 65% of the print run.

I call wildly_fanciful_statement..75!!

[ThothAmon]

1 hour ago, Lazyboy said:

Except that we'll never know how many "unsold" Newsstand copies escaped their fate of destruction.

Anyone have any information if the Mile High 2 collection was in fact to be remaindered copies that never were?  

[Martin Sinescu]

I feel if DC or Marvel *really* wanted to release a hot book, they would publish their print run info. 

[valiantman]

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

6 hours ago, valiantman said:

Still a beautiful visualization of vague exactness...

That graph should include some verbage about copies printed/extant. It can be interpreted as "value" by those who don't know.

 It never occurred to me that "more" might be interpreted "more value" instead of "more of these" and "less of those", but you're absolutely right. 

"Hell is other people." -Sartre

[valiantman]

45 minutes ago, ThothAmon said:

2 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

Except that we'll never know how many "unsold" Newsstand copies escaped their fate of destruction.

Anyone have any information if the Mile High 2 collection was in fact to be remaindered copies that never were?  

They were remainders, but not illegal ones (statute of limitations)... so they were legal, except that they shouldn't exist at all because they were illegal to exist (before Chuck) for the first six years.  1,500,000 comics

http://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg65.html

"I already vaguely knew the seller. I had met him, and his father, at an American Bookseller's Association (ABA) convention a few years prior to his call. His family sold remainder books as their primary business"

Jumping ahead in the story... 

http://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg70.html

"To resolve my ethics problem, I had a discussion with my good friend, Michael Hobson. Michael was then the Vice President of Publishing at Marvel. I explained the situation to him, pointing out that nearly half of the comics had originally come from Marvel, and that Marvel thus had the greatest potential legal claim to these books. I offered, if he wanted, to give him all the details on the warehouse. For all I knew, he might want to follow some course of legal action against the owners. To my surprise, Michael told me to go ahead and buy the deal if I wanted. He stated that as far as Marvel was concerned, there was no reasonable basis to pursue any legal remedies, if for no other reason than the fact that all the material was at least six years old, and that he believed that the contractual statute of limitations had run out."

Edited September 18, 2019 by valiantman

[revat]

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Couple of observations:

1. The Marvel "diamond" era weren't "Whitmans", as the DCs of the era were.

2. Print runs for newsstands are functionally irrelevant (as you imply), because of the returns system. The only hard data we have are the SOOs and whatever numbers we may have from the Direct market, which are incomplete and inadequate. For example...we don't know, because there is no distinction made in the SOOs, how much of the "avg print run" for 1998 (220K) was Direct and how much was newsstand, unless we have relevant numbers from the Direct market. We know that Diamond pre-orders for #441, for example, were 69K. We know from the SOO that 99K were returned (which is entirely newsstands.)

So...we can loosely...LOOSELY...estimate that for a book like ASM #441 had about 70,000 copies sold through the Direct Market, and 50,000 newsstand copies sold, or a ratio of about 7/10 newsstands to Direct, rather than 50/50.

This is one of the drawbacks and misrepresentations at JJM's Comichron. When he says that "45%" or the print run was returned, that's technically accurate, but doesn't tell the story. The actual return rate (since Directs can never be returned) is 67%. Print runs for newsstands have literally no meaning, because it paints a completely inaccurate picture of what actually exists. The newsstand print run for ASM #441 was around 150,000. But only around 50,000 managed to survive, with even fewer today due to attrition.

I already mentioned it, and this is not disagreement in anyway, but logic would also dictate that of total (direct and newsstand) copies that were actually sold into the market, newsstand copies almost certainly suffered higher attrition rates than direct copies, as direct copies were much more likely to be bought buy collectors or people who might have saw them some sort of investment, aside from already being on average in better condition than comics sitting on newsstands.  This would likely skew the available newsstand vs direct CURRENTLY available even more, though every situation is unique if it skews the ratio into a situation where a premium is realized or signifcant.

[ThothAmon]

54 minutes ago, valiantman said:

before Chuck

Knew I’d read that. Chuck is a doozy. Basically ... property. Has he ever talked about whether they were newsstands or not?

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, ThothAmon said:

Knew I’d read that. Chuck is a doozy. Basically ... property. Has he ever talked about whether they were newsstands or not?

Most are by default (being from before the creation of separate Direct editions) and the rest undoubtedly are as well.

[Lazyboy]

2 hours ago, Martin Sinescu said:

I feel if DC or Marvel *really* wanted to release a hot book, they would publish their print run info. 

 I don't get it. Their idea of a "hot book" is one that sells a ton of copies and benefits them. They have no interest in telling people that SuperAwesomeBook #12 (featuring Something Amazing!) only had X copies printed and watching the secondary market go crazy.

[ThothAmon]

First picture price list for books from Mile High 2 collection most likely. Second from a 1980 Avengers so pre MH2  

 

 

[fastballspecial]

9 hours ago, valiantman said:

I don't know about all those details, but being a 20+ year Ebay customer in comics, it's pretty clear that what's readily available on the largest online venue for back issues tends to match pretty well with this graphic.  The graphic reflects more of "what is" and not "what was". Exceptions are probably everywhere, since I know for a fact that 1996 Valiant newsstand is tiny while 1996 Marvel newsstand is comparatively common.

NM Valiant newsstands are like money in the bank, but are very hard to find. Compared to Marvel they are scarce during that time.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

50 minutes ago, ThothAmon said:

First picture price list for books from Mile High 2 collection most likely. Second from a 1980 Avengers so pre MH2  

 

 

I would be fascinated to find out the following about this ads:

1. How many orders were actually fulfilled?

2. What were the actual grades of the books that were sent out?