Albedo #1 & #2 Club 5 5

[Kalel38]

44 minutes ago, Ryan. said:

Another bet I would take. 

I would bet also all day long there isn’t 

[dem1138]

2 hours ago, Kalel38 said:

I would bet also all day long there isn’t 

As someone who started collecting and going to comic shops and conventions during this time I can tell you that most all of the copies of TMNT #1 (1st prints, etc) and Albedo #2 survived.  They were only sold in comic shops and TMNT #1 was a sensation almost immediately which caused collectors and store owners to account for them.  And early on you could still order them directly from Mirage or they were sold at cons by Eastman & Laird.  By the time Albedo came out it was the independent boom and dealers were all over Albedo #0 (all printings) and #1 (all printings).  So believe me, they were aware of #2 (and #3 and #4 and Critters #1, etc).  This was a time when there were lots of comic shops and very few books fell through the cracks.  It was 1984 not 1944 when books were bought and thrown away and few actually survived.

Its not like every dealer at every con had Albedo #2 and TMNT #1 but if you were patient they would show up every so often at shows and comic shop walls.

[Kalel38]

1 hour ago, dem1138 said:

As someone who started collecting and going to comic shops and conventions during this time I can tell you that most all of the copies of TMNT #1 (1st prints, etc) and Albedo #2 survived.  They were only sold in comic shops and TMNT #1 was a sensation almost immediately which caused collectors and store owners to account for them.  And early on you could still order them directly from Mirage or they were sold at cons by Eastman & Laird.  By the time Albedo came out it was the independent boom and dealers were all over Albedo #0 (all printings) and #1 (all printings).  So believe me, they were aware of #2 (and #3 and #4 and Critters #1, etc).  This was a time when there were lots of comic shops and very few books fell through the cracks.  It was 1984 not 1944 when books were bought and thrown away and few actually survived.

Its not like every dealer at every con had Albedo #2 and TMNT #1 but if you were patient they would show up every so often at shows and comic shop walls.

Every major show I have attended each year mind u I have never seen 1 copy of Tmnt 1 first print nor Albedo 2 in a span of 25yrs.. That alone says a lot 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Kalel38

[Ryan.]

9 hours ago, dem1138 said:

As someone who started collecting and going to comic shops and conventions during this time I can tell you that most all of the copies of TMNT #1 (1st prints, etc) and Albedo #2 survived.  They were only sold in comic shops and TMNT #1 was a sensation almost immediately which caused collectors and store owners to account for them.  And early on you could still order them directly from Mirage or they were sold at cons by Eastman & Laird.  By the time Albedo came out it was the independent boom and dealers were all over Albedo #0 (all printings) and #1 (all printings).  So believe me, they were aware of #2 (and #3 and #4 and Critters #1, etc).  This was a time when there were lots of comic shops and very few books fell through the cracks.  It was 1984 not 1944 when books were bought and thrown away and few actually survived.

Its not like every dealer at every con had Albedo #2 and TMNT #1 but if you were patient they would show up every so often at shows and comic shop walls.

It seems that being on the boards here can skew perspectives on how many collectors slab their books, and overestimate the utility of the CGC census in determining scarcity. It is my experience, as someone who has been on the dealer side of the table at large conventions and is friends with several LCS owners, that most collectors have no interest in slabs, for a variety of reasons. 

To your point on the survival rate of 80s indies, you are of course right on. TMNT 1, for example, was an immediate sellout, which is why it went to a second printing just a couple months later. Somehow I doubt most of those buyers tossed that book in the trash. 

[Ryan.]

7 hours ago, Kalel38 said:

Every major show I have attended each year mind u I have never seen 1 copy of Tmnt 1 first print nor Albedo 2 in a span of 25yrs.. That alone says a lot 

That's a lovely anecdote but that hasn't been my experience. At the Boston Comic Con last year there was one dealer that had TMNT first prints across several grades, slabbed and unslabbed, at his booth.  That book tends to be more available at big shows since it's been an eye draw on a dealer's wall for decades.

I have seen maybe one or two Albedo 2s over the years but the crazy price spikes will likely draw more copies out when shows return. 

[Kalel38]

8 hours ago, Ryan. said:

That's a lovely anecdote but that hasn't been my experience. At the Boston Comic Con last year there was one dealer that had TMNT first prints across several grades, slabbed and unslabbed, at his booth.  That book tends to be more available at big shows since it's been an eye draw on a dealer's wall for decades.

I have seen maybe one or two Albedo 2s over the years but the crazy price spikes will likely draw more copies out when shows return. 

I know one dealer in piticular who had those TMNT issues and now sold most of them off. As for Albedo 2 popping up more as shows return there as rare seeing them at show as would be Elvis Presley returning to the stage 

[sfcityduck]

On 10/9/2020 at 2:37 PM, Kalel38 said:

Print run of Albedo 2 was 2000 and how many survived from 1984? 

I'd bet almost all of them survived.  Albedo was a "hot book" almost from Day 1 - not for Usagi, but for the rareness of Albedo.  It was the speculator thing for "rare" small print run books back then. It's why a lot of us who were collecting 80s comics back in the day have long boxes filled with mostly forgettable b&w comics.  Albedo 0 ended up going out to something like 5 prints, with the 3rd print even worth something back then.  Albedo was only sold in comic stores, so it's not like kids were tearing it up and throwing it away.  I had 0 (later blue print) and 2 up to a point.   Used to see 2 in stores throughout the 80s.  I'm sure they all found homes buried in the collections of Usagi fans, of which their must be more than 2,000 now.  It's one of those books which is not really "rare" - it's just well loved by its owners.  

[sfcityduck]

On 10/9/2020 at 9:44 AM, Wolverinex said:

Yes,  Usagi has cooled off since the announcement so I've been quietly buying more Usagi 1,  Space Usagi 1s and other cheaper keys... once the show appears.... everything will boost significantly

Why?  Netflix's description of the show sounds terrible and Netflix specializes in ignoring the input of creators (and the charm of the original).  Look at what has happened with Airbender!  It's creators have bailed because Netflix won't listen to them (which is shocking given their success and the failure of the movie).

[WolverineX]

39 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Why?  Netflix's description of the show sounds terrible and Netflix specializes in ignoring the input of creators (and the charm of the original).  Look at what has happened with Airbender!  It's creators have bailed because Netflix won't listen to them (which is shocking given their success and the failure of the movie).

It's hit or miss because I love umbrella academy and witcher 3...I still think it's better then nothing

[Kalel38]

7 hours ago, Wolverinex said:

It's hit or miss because I love umbrella academy and witcher 3...I still think it's better then nothing

To say 2000 of them survived even 35yrs later is like saying I bought a loaf of bread back then and it's still as fresh today as it was back then.. SMH.. If there was then why isn't the market flooded with say 5-10 copies of it on eBay? No one is selling or are there as many out there as less then 200 are graded and 1800 still in raw state in collections? Far cry There's over 10 copies of AF 15 on every given day on eBay and yet you would think there would be more Albedo 2s? You sure about that they all survived? Let’s looks at Spider-Man #1in 1984 from 21yrs since 1963..Now how many survived? 1000-5000 as the census shows today there isn't even 5,000 copies around on census though it had a print run of what 200,000 copies? Are there 100,000 copies still floating around? And yet Albedo 2 to say has a survival rate of 100% after 21yrs in 2005 to 35yrs later today is as much chance as it raining in the arctic in Jan .

Edited October 16, 2020 by Kalel38

[Kalel38]

8 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

Why?  Netflix's description of the show sounds terrible and Netflix specializes in ignoring the input of creators (and the charm of the original).  Look at what has happened with Airbender!  It's creators have bailed because Netflix won't listen to them (which is shocking given their success and the failure of the movie).

Whaaaaat that makes absolutely no sense at all...

[sfcityduck]

10 hours ago, Kalel38 said:

To say 2000 of them survived even 35yrs later is like saying I bought a loaf of bread back then and it's still as fresh today as it was back then.. SMH.. If there was then why isn't the market flooded with say 5-10 copies of it on eBay? No one is selling or are there as many out there as less then 200 are graded and 1800 still in raw state in collections? Far cry There's over 10 copies of AF 15 on every given day on eBay and yet you would think there would be more Albedo 2s? You sure about that they all survived? Let’s looks at Spider-Man #1in 1984 from 21yrs since 1963..Now how many survived? 1000-5000 as the census shows today there isn't even 5,000 copies around on census though it had a print run of what 200,000 copies? Are there 100,000 copies still floating around? And yet Albedo 2 to say has a survival rate of 100% after 21yrs in 2005 to 35yrs later today is as much chance as it raining in the arctic in Jan .

So much wrong with this post.

First, my collecting heyday was mid-70s to the end of the 80s.  As an anecdote: ALL of the comics I collected then are safely and securely stored away and largely have not been read since 1991.  (I have many of my most favorite runs in collected editions now).  I'm not unique.  Most collectors who bought in the 80s and held simply don't see a need to CGC unless you want to sell.  CGC numbers don't reflect the collections of folks like me who rarely CGC.  And we are the vast majority of collectors.

Second, yes, many of my comics are as fresh today as they were back then.  I have runs bought in the later 80s which are so "newsstand fresh" that the spines still have not been flattened.  They are exactly as they were the day I bought them because by late 80s they went straight into bags and boards without being read.  I gave up buying new titles up by 1991.

Third, NO ONE BOUGHT AN ALBEDO 2 OTHER THAN A COMIC COLLECTOR.  And comic collectors either held the book or sold it to a store or another collector.  While some copies undoubtedly were destroyed in fires, floods, accidents or, in a miniscule number of cases tossed by collectors, my guess that number is well below 10%.  Any comic collector who bought Albedo 2, when the title was hot and b&w comics generally were the subject of speculation, would have held it.  There was no internet, but word got around fast in various speculator publications.  The immediate price inflation of Comico Primer (Grendel) and subsequent b&w books like TMNT had a huge impact on us back then.  That's why the collections of guys my age are littered with a ton of b&w drek that we bought and held hoping some day it would be worth a fortune.  In the case of Albedo, that was a good bet and the number of people who won that bet but don't want to cash in yet is probably still very large.

Fourth, there's another thing .  The collectors I know who were older than me, the ones in their late 20s and 30s when Albedo came out, those guys are sitting on a huge stash of incredible comics.  I know a guy with a collection that includes not a single CGC certified book.  It includes an Action 1 he bought in 1980 for what might have then been a record price, D27, Batman 1, Superman 1, the complete Marvel SA, Centaurs, Barks DD, maybe the best Reform School Girl and best Archie 1, lots of PCH, GGA, and Atlas runs - really a dream collection.  He owned my LCS in a small college town.  NOTHING IS CGC'd.  NOT A SINGLE BOOK.  Because he is not selling off the core of his collection yet.  And I'm confident my old LCS owner also has an Albedo 2 tucked away.

CGC is not a good tool to predict how many books of a given title survived.  It is a good tool to figure out which books are relatively more likely to be sold.

As someone who lived through that time period, I'm confident my opinion is far closer to reality than yours.  

Edited to add:  Man I sound crotchety!  "Get off of my lawn, youngster!"  But, in all seriousness, I think you might want to listen to other collectors who have different experiences than you with a more open mind.  I'm not the only person telling you that Albedo 2 is not as "rare" as you think.  

Edited October 16, 2020 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

One of the benefits of being an older collector is I can reach into a box and pull out something helpful, such as this:

As you can see, even without the internet, Albedo was being promoted as a "hot title" long before anyone cared about Albedo 2.  Still, I guarantee you that Albedo 2 was being snapped up and held back then.  This was a world where drek like Fish Police 1 and Trolllords 1 were worth more then they are now.  To add some more perspective, this was a world where a Grendel 1 was being sold for $60 at the same Con where a NM JIM 83 sold for $380.  NO ONE was throwing away low print run b&w comics back then.  

And Usagi quickly became one of the few b&w characters to garner a large fan following (thanks, in part, I think to the popularity of Lone Wolf and Groo - Usagi was the middle ground).

[comiconxion]

29 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

One of the benefits of being an older collector is I can reach into a box and pull out something helpful, such as this:

As you can see, even without the internet, Albedo was being promoted as a "hot title" long before anyone cared about Albedo 2.  Still, I guarantee you that Albedo 2 was being snapped up and held back then.  This was a world where drek like Fish Police 1 and Trolllords 1 were worth more then they are now.  To add some more perspective, this was a world where a Grendel 1 was being sold for $60 at the same Con where a NM JIM 83 sold for $380.  NO ONE was throwing away low print run b&w comics back then.  

And Usagi quickly became one of the few b&w characters to garner a large fan following (thanks, in part, I think to the popularity of Lone Wolf and Groo - Usagi was the middle ground).

Yes, I remember at this time that there were dealers asking $60-$200 for Albedo #2.  At the time, 3rd printings of Albedo #0 were selling for $25-$35 soon after they were released at SDCC.  I think many dealers knew that Albedo #2 would be hot when the B&W market took off, but years later, I still found a copy for $5 in a long box, so not everyone knew.

Edited October 16, 2020 by comiconxion

[Kalel38]

1 hour ago, sfcityduck said:

So much wrong with this post.

First, my collecting heyday was mid-70s to the end of the 80s.  As an anecdote: ALL of the comics I collected then are safely and securely stored away and largely have not been read since 1991.  (I have many of my most favorite runs in collected editions now).  I'm not unique.  Most collectors who bought in the 80s and held simply don't see a need to CGC unless you want to sell.  CGC numbers don't reflect the collections of folks like me who rarely CGC.  And we are the vast majority of collectors.

Second, yes, many of my comics are as fresh today as they were back then.  I have runs bought in the later 80s which are so "newsstand fresh" that the spines still have not been flattened.  They are exactly as they were the day I bought them because by late 80s they went straight into bags and boards without being read.  I gave up buying new titles up by 1991.

Third, NO ONE BOUGHT AN ALBEDO 2 OTHER THAN A COMIC COLLECTOR.  And comic collectors either held the book or sold it to a store or another collector.  While some copies undoubtedly were destroyed in fires, floods, accidents or, in a miniscule number of cases tossed by collectors, my guess that number is well below 10%.  Any comic collector who bought Albedo 2, when the title was hot and b&w comics generally were the subject of speculation, would have held it.  There was no internet, but word got around fast in various speculator publications.  The immediate price inflation of Comico Primer (Grendel) and subsequent b&w books like TMNT had a huge impact on us back then.  That's why the collections of guys my age are littered with a ton of b&w drek that we bought and held hoping some day it would be worth a fortune.  In the case of Albedo, that was a good bet and the number of people who won that bet but don't want to cash in yet is probably still very large.

Fourth, there's another thing .  The collectors I know who were older than me, the ones in their late 20s and 30s when Albedo came out, those guys are sitting on a huge stash of incredible comics.  I know a guy with a collection that includes not a single CGC certified book.  It includes an Action 1 he bought in 1980 for what might have then been a record price, D27, Batman 1, Superman 1, the complete Marvel SA, Centaurs, Barks DD, maybe the best Reform School Girl and best Archie 1, lots of PCH, GGA, and Atlas runs - really a dream collection.  He owned my LCS in a small college town.  NOTHING IS CGC'd.  NOT A SINGLE BOOK.  Because he is not selling off the core of his collection yet.  And I'm confident my old LCS owner also has an Albedo 2 tucked away.

CGC is not a good tool to predict how many books of a given title survived.  It is a good tool to figure out which books are relatively more likely to be sold.

As someone who lived through that time period, I'm confident my opinion is far closer to reality than yours.  

Edited to add:  Man I sound crotchety!  "Get off of my lawn, youngster!"  But, in all seriousness, I think you might want to listen to other collectors who have different experiences than you with a more open mind.  I'm not the only person telling you that Albedo 2 is not as "rare" as you think.  

Then I guess Action comics #1 isn’t as rare also If everything is based off of census status correct??. Must be hoards of collectors who have thousands still locked away in their closets. Statistics that show how much is graded indicates what might be out there outside the census. To say for certain there not rare means someone obviously hasn’t a copy nor can’t except they are a rare book to find and aquire. But again what do I know I’ve only been a collector seller for over 20 years who’s had over 2 copies of Superman 1 to countless other I guess non rare items. It amazes me the defence mechanism one feels soon as one who hasn’t a book has to conjure a non evidence proof to their beliefs to make them think their right. I guess everything that is supposedly rare really isn’t then because of one persons opinion next to what is reality 

[sfcityduck]

1 minute ago, Kalel38 said:

Then I guess Action comics #1 isn’t as rare also If everything is based off of census status correct??. Must be hoards of collectors who have thousands still locked away in their closets. Statistics that show how much is graded indicates what might be out there outside the census. To say for certain there not rare means someone obviously hasn’t a copy nor can’t except they are a rare book to find and aquire. But again what do I know I’ve only been a collector seller for over 20 years who’s had over 2 copies of Superman 1 to countless other I guess non rare items. It amazes me the defence mechanism one feels soon as one who hasn’t a book has to conjure a non evidence proof to their beliefs to make them think their right. I guess everything that is supposedly rare really isn’t then because of one persons opinion next to what is reality 

I don't understand what you are trying to say.  Perhaps you could rephrase your comment.

My point:  Collector's don't CGC a comic unless they want to sell it or, and this is a lesser consideration, they feel they need to do so to protect the comic (small number) or to boast about it (smaller number).  To use Action 1 as an example, the best copy of that comic is not graded.  IT has been held by the same collector since 1986, at least (and he also owns the best D27).  As I said, my local LCS owner in a small college town in a small population state owns a really nice Action 1 (not CGC'd) that he bought in 1980 (to much fanfare).  The major GA collectors and dealers are aware of many other Action 1s that are not slabbed.  There's a well-known SoCal collector with 3 unslabbed Action 1s.  The GA  guys with most knowledge generally say that fewer than 1/3rd of Action 1s are slabbed. 

And that's Action 1.  The comic that most folks would probably believe is most likely to be slabbed. 

No one would expect Albedo 2 to be slabbed at near the same rate as Action 1.  A 10% slab rate for Albedo seems very reasonable.  I suspect that would be much much higher than for most comics of that time period.  

So what's the take away?  Census numbers are not the universe of copies.  They are a small percentage of the universe of copies.  And that percentage varies from book to book.  

[Kalel38]

9 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

I don't understand what you are trying to say.  Perhaps you could rephrase your comment.

My point:  Collector's don't CGC a comic unless they want to sell it or, and this is a lesser consideration, they feel they need to do so to protect the comic (small number) or to boast about it (smaller number).  To use Action 1 as an example, the best copy of that comic is not graded.  IT has been held by the same collector since 1986, at least (and he also owns the best D27).  As I said, my local LCS owner in a small college town in a small population state owns a really nice Action 1 (not CGC'd) that he bought in 1980 (to much fanfare).  The major GA collectors and dealers are aware of many other Action 1s that are not slabbed.  There's a well-known SoCal collector with 3 unslabbed Action 1s.  The GA  guys with most knowledge generally say that fewer than 1/3rd of Action 1s are slabbed. 

And that's Action 1.  The comic that most folks would probably believe is most likely to be slabbed. 

No one would expect Albedo 2 to be slabbed at near the same rate as Action 1.  A 10% slab rate for Albedo seems very reasonable.  I suspect that would be much much higher than for most comics of that time period.  

So what's the take away?  Census numbers are not the universe of copies.  They are a small percentage of the universe of copies.  And that percentage varies from book to book.  

To say there is a higher grade Action Comics #1 out there then the one that was sold I believe 9.0 a few years ago for over 2 million is like me saying I have seen big foot. Oh I've heard this story a million times like  Moby tale of the so called Dentist who has this copy just like the Duke of England no pun intended.. There's always someone saying soemthing and never have proof to back it up. I can say I have seen Aliens in my back yard and would my word be enough to say it's true? Of course not...but what amuses me the most from this hobby is facts.. When there is facts then there is proof,I'm sure there is plenty more Action Comics #1 out there just like Albedo 2 but the fact remains when u collect in this hobby and know a piticular value to something no one in there right mind is going to leave it ungraded for a certain amount of time. Every major book has a value to it once it is graded and with that grade comes "monetary"value. You don't stick a book in a blank vault let's say with a raw copy of  Marvel Comics #1 and not having the book evsluated because that's like putting a IOU stub inside saying this is worth 100,000.. Eveything has "MONETARY" value. Insurance purposes for those who are smart.. Would u get your house uninsured?...The point is simple every major collector who collects comics seriously knows what the value is to their books they collect or what they see from over street to Cgc forum sites and most of all "eBay".. Ultimate fallout four how many are graded? Quite a lot aren't they.. You know why because people are cashing out at the right time. So to end this debate on a proper note anyone who has a book that has a massive value to it like Action 1 or TMNT 1 to etc has them graded because it's the smart thing to do. Next time you go driving your car don't insure it and see what taking ur chance happens... 

[sfcityduck]

2 hours ago, Kalel38 said:

To say there is a higher grade Action Comics #1 out there then the one that was sold I believe 9.0 a few years ago for over 2 million is like me saying I have seen big foot. Oh I've heard this story a million times like  Moby tale of the so called Dentist who has this copy just like the Duke of England no pun intended.. There's always someone saying soemthing and never have proof to back it up. I can say I have seen Aliens in my back yard and would my word be enough to say it's true? Of course not...but what amuses me the most from this hobby is facts.. When there is facts then there is proof,

If you don't listen to the folks on these boards, you are going to miss out on a lot of important information.  I suggest you recognize that these boards are a fount of truthful information that is of enormous value to collectors.

For example, the guy who paid the $3.2M+ record price for the Action 1 (CGC 9.0 white) sold by Pristine Comics was Stephen Fishler (Founder of Metro Comics).  He bought it on behalf of Ayman Hariri who is the current owner.  Fishler is also the guy who earlier sold the Action 1 (Nic Cage copy - CGC 9.0 cream to off-white) to Hariri for $2.1+M.  Oh, and Fischler invented the 10.0 grading scale.  Fishler has held Dave "the Dentist" Anderson's Action 1 (Mile High/Edgar Church Pedigree) in his hands and has opined on these very boards that it would be a CGC 9.2-9.4. He says the Dentist's is the best copy.  That's a fact. 

In addition, the guy who graded for Sotheby's famous comic auctions, who was the first primary grader and restoration expert for CGC, who was the consignment director for Heritage, and who has founded the other grading company is Steve Borock.  Borock has also held the Mile HIgh Action 1 in his hands and opined back when he was still with CGC that it would be a CGC 9.2-9.4.  That too is a fact. 

Fishler and Borock are not aliens.  They are pillars of the comic collecting community.

The Dentist is a very well known very high end collector.  While the Dentist doesn't post on these boards, his son does. 

There is no reason to believe that the stories told by Fishler, Borock, and others about the Mile High Action 1 being the "best copy" are not true.  That also is a fact.

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

2 hours ago, Kalel38 said:

I'm sure there is plenty more Action Comics #1 out there just like Albedo 2 but the fact remains when u collect in this hobby and know a piticular value to something no one in there right mind is going to leave it ungraded for a certain amount of time. Every major book has a value to it once it is graded and with that grade comes "monetary"value. You don't stick a book in a blank vault let's say with a raw copy of  Marvel Comics #1 and not having the book evsluated because that's like putting a IOU stub inside saying this is worth 100,000.. 

I hate to break this to you, but you are just wrong. You don't need to CGC a comic to insure it.  MANY high end collectors see no need to CGC books they are putting in a bank vault.  The proof is the testimony of the many high end collectors on this site who show their incredibly beautiful unencapsulated comics.  For example, to lead into this gently, here's some pictures of comics that are just sitting around in my old LCS owner's bank vault without CGC encapsulation in a small college town:

And this is just a small tip of a huge iceberg - just a small portion of the tiny portion of his books that have been posted on this site.

And then there's the most famous thread ever put up on these boards - BangZoom's "Golden Age Collection" thread full of unencapsulated high grade GA beauties, most of the best from a 2,000+ book original owner collection that would be given pedigree status if ever encapsulated, like these:

If you want to see minds being blown, read this thread:

Some broken link images are here:

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by sfcityduck

[Ryan.]

@sfcityduck, don't make yourself nuts trying to convince this guy. The comic collecting community prevalent on YouTube pushes a narrative that books with print runs in the 1500-2000 range are "ultra rare" and everything needs to be in a CGC slab to have real value. These collectors sink a ton of money into Moderns, usually get burned, and either smarten up or move on to a different hobby.