Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[Straw-Man]

You can find info on a DD7 I believe a Pacific Coast that was pressed from 8.5 to 9.6 after 4-5 tries.

 

As a fan of Pedigrees, to me this is disgusting. First off, no one can convince me this is the same legacy book that was in the Original collection. In this case, the Pedigree status is meaningless.

Also, if you ever ever owned books from certain pedigrees that have outstanding color you can see a deterioration in the color after a pressing.

It's a subtle thing, only noticeable in hand, but that sharp brightness, fresh off the stand look is diminished. I can only imagine that multiple pressings will completely destroy the freshness factor.

This depresses me almost to the point of wishing I were dead.

 

It also demonstrates a flaw in the CGC grading, in that freshness isn't being considered, or considered enough, in grading. Were that loss of freshness properly punished, people would not be trying to press fresh, high-grade, books. The scales need to be adjusted, even if it's just a little - enough to make the risk outweigh the reward.

 

c'mon now, this is big news---no need for you to be so understated.

[THE_BEYONDER]

As I said, I'm not a fan of the Schave process. And yes, I used to be in NOD and held that pressing was a restorative technique. Clearly that ship sailed and it has been determined by CGC that it isn't. Tilting at that windmill seemed fruitless.

 

So....because CGC insisted that pressing wasn't resto...you decided you might as well start printing money too?

[Randall Dowling]

What if it isn't restoration?

 

So if it isn't restoration, what is it? Not being contrary, just wondering what you would call it.

 

It seems like there is a huge stigma about "restored" books vs. "unrestored" books. So, is it that if pressing is called restoration, then there would be huge losses by people that have had most of their books pressed? If so, I can very much understand the concern as the amount of money in comics is significant.

 

It's hard to see a common ground that would satisfy most people if this is the case as disclosure implies stigma and stigma decreases value.

[comix4fun]

This depresses me almost to the point of wishing I were dead.

 

.

 

 

Comics haven't made me feel that way since I was subjected to Liefeld's New Mutants.

[THE_BEYONDER]

What if it isn't restoration?

 

So if it isn't restoration, what is it? Not being contrary, just wondering what you would call it.

 

It seems like there is a huge stigma about "restored" books vs. "unrestored" books. So, is it that if pressing is called restoration, then there would be huge losses by people that have had most of their books pressed? If so, I can very much understand the concern as the amount of money in comics is significant.

 

It's hard to see a common ground that would satisfy most people if this is the case as disclosure implies stigma and stigma decreases value.

 

 

CGC had no choice but to deny that pressing was restoration. From day one...books were being damaged by the very holders that were intended to preserve them. This post-slabbing damage(SCS) could only be fixed through the practice of pressing.

[Straw-Man]

What if it isn't restoration?

 

So if it isn't restoration, what is it? Not being contrary, just wondering what you would call it.

 

It seems like there is a huge stigma about "restored" books vs. "unrestored" books. So, is it that if pressing is called restoration, then there would be huge losses by people that have had most of their books pressed? If so, I can very much understand the concern as the amount of money in comics is significant.

 

It's hard to see a common ground that would satisfy most people if this is the case as disclosure implies stigma and stigma decreases value.

 

i'm not telling you that there aren't a few crusaders around here for whom that disclosure would be a deal-breaker, BUT...just check out the sales threads on these very boards, where the sellers openly disclose their books have been pressed. they sell in the neighborhood that you would expect a like-graded book to sell. often, they fly off the shelves. they sure do with me, if i need and like the book. and these boards are full of buyers "educated" on the pressing issue. i see no evidence of disclosure=decreased value.

[THE_BEYONDER]

What if it isn't restoration?

 

So if it isn't restoration, what is it? Not being contrary, just wondering what you would call it.

 

It seems like there is a huge stigma about "restored" books vs. "unrestored" books. So, is it that if pressing is called restoration, then there would be huge losses by people that have had most of their books pressed? If so, I can very much understand the concern as the amount of money in comics is significant.

 

It's hard to see a common ground that would satisfy most people if this is the case as disclosure implies stigma and stigma decreases value.

 

i'm not telling you that there aren't a few crusaders around here for whom that disclosure would be a deal-breaker, BUT...just check out the sales threads on these very boards, where the sellers openly disclose their books have been pressed. they sell in the neighborhood that you would expect a like-graded book to sell. often, they fly off the shelves. they sure do with me, if i need and like the book. and these boards are full of buyers "educated" on the pressing issue. i see no evidence of disclosure=decreased value.

 

So...if it was on the label, it would have zero impact on value? Or is it because the buyer doesn't necessarily have to disclose the info when it comes time to sell the book themselves?

[Randall Dowling]

What if it isn't restoration?

 

So if it isn't restoration, what is it? Not being contrary, just wondering what you would call it.

 

It seems like there is a huge stigma about "restored" books vs. "unrestored" books. So, is it that if pressing is called restoration, then there would be huge losses by people that have had most of their books pressed? If so, I can very much understand the concern as the amount of money in comics is significant.

 

It's hard to see a common ground that would satisfy most people if this is the case as disclosure implies stigma and stigma decreases value.

 

i'm not telling you that there aren't a few crusaders around here for whom that disclosure would be a deal-breaker, BUT...just check out the sales threads on these very boards, where the sellers openly disclose their books have been pressed. they sell in the neighborhood that you would expect a like-graded book to sell. often, they fly off the shelves. they sure do with me, if i need and like the book. and these boards are full of buyers "educated" on the pressing issue. i see no evidence of disclosure=decreased value.

 

Yes, I've seen that in threads and it seems to be the best way to handle it so that future owners don't repress the same book expecting higher and higher grades. But my question was about why people are so adamant about not calling pressing restoration. And if disclosure isn't an issue, if the work is considered beneficial, why not have it noted on the label and let the market decide? It seems like there is at least some fear that it could impact value. I think it speaks very highly of all that do identify the work done regardless as they are taking some risk (perhaps very, very small) of leaving money on the table in exchange for honesty and integrity. (thumbs u

 

Anyway, thanks for the response. There just seems to be some gap in the logic that I'm not quite getting. Probably due to being dropped on my head as a child.

[Randall Dowling]

I think the answers to your questions are :

 

So...if it was on the label, it would have zero impact on value?

 

No, it would have some impact as there is clearly some portion of the market that finds it less desirable, even if that portion is very, very small, it still reduces competition for scarce goods.

 

Or is it because the buyer doesn't necessarily have to disclose the info when it comes time to sell the book themselves?

 

Yes, and a legitimate concern for the honest man. Why be honest when others benefit from being otherwise. It's a pretty serious disincentive.

[skypinkblu]

What if it isn't restoration?

 

So if it isn't restoration, what is it? Not being contrary, just wondering what you would call it.

 

It seems like there is a huge stigma about "restored" books vs. "unrestored" books. So, is it that if pressing is called restoration, then there would be huge losses by people that have had most of their books pressed? If so, I can very much understand the concern as the amount of money in comics is significant.

 

It's hard to see a common ground that would satisfy most people if this is the case as disclosure implies stigma and stigma decreases value.

 

i'm not telling you that there aren't a few crusaders around here for whom that disclosure would be a deal-breaker, BUT...just check out the sales threads on these very boards, where the sellers openly disclose their books have been pressed. they sell in the neighborhood that you would expect a like-graded book to sell. often, they fly off the shelves. they sure do with me, if i need and like the book. and these boards are full of buyers "educated" on the pressing issue. i see no evidence of disclosure=decreased value.

 

This is because you collect books because actually LIKE comic books;)

I don't think the lack of disclosure has anything to do with a stigma that will prevent purists from buying, I think it's more likely got something to do with number chasing and enticing people to buy books so that they can maybe enhance the numbers.

 

Just my observation that the people who are "purists" seem to be way outweighed by the people looking to.. possibly increase their investment.

 

At least that is what I'm seeing here...where lots of people have learned about pressing and dry cleaning...

 

I will also bet that if you ask a dozen non boardies at a Con what they think about pressing, 5 of them will ask about irons and 5 will say "What?".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[skypinkblu]

What if it isn't restoration?

 

So if it isn't restoration, what is it? Not being contrary, just wondering what you would call it.

 

It seems like there is a huge stigma about "restored" books vs. "unrestored" books. So, is it that if pressing is called restoration, then there would be huge losses by people that have had most of their books pressed? If so, I can very much understand the concern as the amount of money in comics is significant.

 

It's hard to see a common ground that would satisfy most people if this is the case as disclosure implies stigma and stigma decreases value.

 

i'm not telling you that there aren't a few crusaders around here for whom that disclosure would be a deal-breaker, BUT...just check out the sales threads on these very boards, where the sellers openly disclose their books have been pressed. they sell in the neighborhood that you would expect a like-graded book to sell. often, they fly off the shelves. they sure do with me, if i need and like the book. and these boards are full of buyers "educated" on the pressing issue. i see no evidence of disclosure=decreased value.

 

Yes, I've seen that in threads and it seems to be the best way to handle it so that future owners don't repress the same book expecting higher and higher grades. But my question was about why people are so adamant about not calling pressing restoration. And if disclosure isn't an issue, if the work is considered beneficial, why not have it noted on the label and let the market decide? It seems like there is at least some fear that it could impact value. I think it speaks very highly of all that do identify the work done regardless as they are taking some risk (perhaps very, very small) of leaving money on the table in exchange for honesty and integrity. (thumbs u

 

Anyway, thanks for the response. There just seems to be some gap in the logic that I'm not quite getting. Probably due to being dropped on my head as a child.

 

Because when CGC started putting "restored books" in a different label, that other label became known as the Purple Label of Death" or a PLOD. All "restored" books are known as "PLODS" at least here.

 

PLODS sell for less money than blue (Universal Labels) ...so if CGC said that pressing was restoration then all those pressed books that they gave blue labels to, would have to be given Purple labels if they were resubmitted and the perceived value would drop like a guy wearing cement shoes when he's dumped in the Hudson River;) .

 

A few of us would still offer the poor PLOD books good homes and a healthy environment, but it would be harder to place them with loving families.

[Randall Dowling]

BTW, I believe the issue that is really being discussed and is so problematic falls under the category of a moral hazard. FWIW.

 

"Economists explain moral hazard as a special case of information asymmetry, a situation in which one party in a transaction has more information than another. In particular, moral hazard may occur if a party that is insulated from risk has more information about its actions and intentions than the party paying for the negative consequences of the risk. More broadly, moral hazard occurs when the party with more information about its actions or intentions has a tendency or incentive to behave inappropriately from the perspective of the party with less information."

 

Taken from Wikipedia on 8 October 2013.

[Randall Dowling]

What if it isn't restoration?

 

So if it isn't restoration, what is it? Not being contrary, just wondering what you would call it.

 

It seems like there is a huge stigma about "restored" books vs. "unrestored" books. So, is it that if pressing is called restoration, then there would be huge losses by people that have had most of their books pressed? If so, I can very much understand the concern as the amount of money in comics is significant.

 

It's hard to see a common ground that would satisfy most people if this is the case as disclosure implies stigma and stigma decreases value.

 

i'm not telling you that there aren't a few crusaders around here for whom that disclosure would be a deal-breaker, BUT...just check out the sales threads on these very boards, where the sellers openly disclose their books have been pressed. they sell in the neighborhood that you would expect a like-graded book to sell. often, they fly off the shelves. they sure do with me, if i need and like the book. and these boards are full of buyers "educated" on the pressing issue. i see no evidence of disclosure=decreased value.

 

Yes, I've seen that in threads and it seems to be the best way to handle it so that future owners don't repress the same book expecting higher and higher grades. But my question was about why people are so adamant about not calling pressing restoration. And if disclosure isn't an issue, if the work is considered beneficial, why not have it noted on the label and let the market decide? It seems like there is at least some fear that it could impact value. I think it speaks very highly of all that do identify the work done regardless as they are taking some risk (perhaps very, very small) of leaving money on the table in exchange for honesty and integrity. (thumbs u

 

Anyway, thanks for the response. There just seems to be some gap in the logic that I'm not quite getting. Probably due to being dropped on my head as a child.

 

Because when CGC started putting "restored books" in a different label, that other label became known as the Purple Label of Death" or a PLOD. All "restored" books are known as "PLODS" at least here.

 

PLODS sell for less money than blue (Universal Labels) ...so if CGC said that pressing was restoration then all those books that they gave blue labels to, would have to be given Purple labels if they were resubmitted and the perceived value would drop like a guy wearing cement shoes when he's dumped in the Hudson River;) .

 

This was my thinking also.

 

A few of us would still offer the poor PLOD books good homes and a healthy environment, but it would be harder to place them with loving families.

 

You and me both. (thumbs u

[DiceX]

This thread for about 3,070 posts now...

 

 

 

[Park]

This thread for about 3,070 posts now...

 

 

 

Did you miss the guy wishing he were dead?

 

It was semi interesting.

[DiceX]

This thread for about 3,070 posts now...

 

 

 

Did you miss the guy wishing he were dead?

 

It was semi interesting.

 

Yes. Link please.

 

 

[mschmidt]

This thread for about 3,070 posts now...

 

 

 

Did you miss the guy wishing he were dead?

 

It was semi interesting.

 

I wonder how's he going to react when he discovers that the very example that made him wish he was dead - the DD #7 jumping from an 8.5 to a 9.6 and loosing its "freshness" in the process - was completely made up

[jimjum12]

What if it isn't restoration?

 

So if it isn't restoration, what is it? Not being contrary, just wondering what you would call it.

 

It seems like there is a huge stigma about "restored" books vs. "unrestored" books. So, is it that if pressing is called restoration, then there would be huge losses by people that have had most of their books pressed? If so, I can very much understand the concern as the amount of money in comics is significant.

 

It's hard to see a common ground that would satisfy most people if this is the case as disclosure implies stigma and stigma decreases value.

 

i'm not telling you that there aren't a few crusaders around here for whom that disclosure would be a deal-breaker, BUT...just check out the sales threads on these very boards, where the sellers openly disclose their books have been pressed. they sell in the neighborhood that you would expect a like-graded book to sell. often, they fly off the shelves. they sure do with me, if i need and like the book. and these boards are full of buyers "educated" on the pressing issue. i see no evidence of disclosure=decreased value.

 

Yes, I've seen that in threads and it seems to be the best way to handle it so that future owners don't repress the same book expecting higher and higher grades. But my question was about why people are so adamant about not calling pressing restoration. And if disclosure isn't an issue, if the work is considered beneficial, why not have it noted on the label and let the market decide? It seems like there is at least some fear that it could impact value. I think it speaks very highly of all that do identify the work done regardless as they are taking some risk (perhaps very, very small) of leaving money on the table in exchange for honesty and integrity. (thumbs u

 

Anyway, thanks for the response. There just seems to be some gap in the logic that I'm not quite getting. Probably due to being dropped on my head as a child.

 

Because when CGC started putting "restored books" in a different label, that other label became known as the Purple Label of Death" or a PLOD. All "restored" books are known as "PLODS" at least here.

 

PLODS sell for less money than blue (Universal Labels) ...so if CGC said that pressing was restoration then all those books that they gave blue labels to, would have to be given Purple labels if they were resubmitted and the perceived value would drop like a guy wearing cement shoes when he's dumped in the Hudson River;) .

 

This was my thinking also.

 

A few of us would still offer the poor PLOD books good homes and a healthy environment, but it would be harder to place them with loving families.

 

You and me both. (thumbs u

 

For further simplification.....

 

It is not on the label because 99 % of the market does not see it as a noteworthy factor.

 

to quote ciorac....

 

period.

 

GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

This thread for about 3,070 posts now...

 

 

 

Did you miss the guy wishing he were dead?

 

It was semi interesting.

 

Yes. Link please.

 

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

What if it isn't restoration?

 

So if it isn't restoration, what is it? Not being contrary, just wondering what you would call it.

 

It seems like there is a huge stigma about "restored" books vs. "unrestored" books. So, is it that if pressing is called restoration, then there would be huge losses by people that have had most of their books pressed? If so, I can very much understand the concern as the amount of money in comics is significant.

 

It's hard to see a common ground that would satisfy most people if this is the case as disclosure implies stigma and stigma decreases value.

 

i'm not telling you that there aren't a few crusaders around here for whom that disclosure would be a deal-breaker, BUT...just check out the sales threads on these very boards, where the sellers openly disclose their books have been pressed. they sell in the neighborhood that you would expect a like-graded book to sell. often, they fly off the shelves. they sure do with me, if i need and like the book. and these boards are full of buyers "educated" on the pressing issue. i see no evidence of disclosure=decreased value.

 

Yes, I've seen that in threads and it seems to be the best way to handle it so that future owners don't repress the same book expecting higher and higher grades. But my question was about why people are so adamant about not calling pressing restoration. And if disclosure isn't an issue, if the work is considered beneficial, why not have it noted on the label and let the market decide? It seems like there is at least some fear that it could impact value. I think it speaks very highly of all that do identify the work done regardless as they are taking some risk (perhaps very, very small) of leaving money on the table in exchange for honesty and integrity. (thumbs u

 

Anyway, thanks for the response. There just seems to be some gap in the logic that I'm not quite getting. Probably due to being dropped on my head as a child.

 

Because when CGC started putting "restored books" in a different label, that other label became known as the Purple Label of Death" or a PLOD. All "restored" books are known as "PLODS" at least here.

 

PLODS sell for less money than blue (Universal Labels) ...so if CGC said that pressing was restoration then all those books that they gave blue labels to, would have to be given Purple labels if they were resubmitted and the perceived value would drop like a guy wearing cement shoes when he's dumped in the Hudson River;) .

 

This was my thinking also.

 

A few of us would still offer the poor PLOD books good homes and a healthy environment, but it would be harder to place them with loving families.

 

You and me both. (thumbs u

 

For further simplification.....

 

It is not on the label because 99 % of the market does not see it as a noteworthy factor.

 

to quote ciorac....

 

period.

 

GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

I assume a worldwide poll was administered. Link please....