Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[joeypost]

Does anyone know Doug Schmell well enough to ask him ?

 

Given Mr Schmell's long history of dishonesty - both within and without the hobby - I wouldn't trust any answer he gave anyway.

 

Then does anyone know Paul Litch well enough to ask him ?

I'll be there Friday.Not sure what I will bring back to share, but I will ask.

[asteroid-comix]

Rarely do I see a cover shrink. While I have not measured a cover to see if it shrinks, my guess would be that the pressing caused the interior pages to flatten and extend past the cover ever so slightly.

 

A true test would be to get a profile shot of the pages on the outside edge of the book and see if they have the traditional "V" shape to them.

 

Hardly a scientific study, but when this thread started I was curious if I could get pages to "squeeze out" as has been suggested. I took a cheap silver-age comic, applied a backer-board over it to even out pressure, and put my full weight into pressing down on the book as hard as I could. I could not get the interior pages to fan out at all... not the tiniest speck... even for the moments while I was actually pressing down, let alone permanently. The fan-out we're seeing here is, what... 1/16th of an inch?

 

Unless you were at an operating temperature of 180-200 degrees and a relative humidity of 80-90% it is not the same.

 

This whole issue got me thinking about an a SC #22 with a loose staple that I had graded once. The book looked to line up when I had it in hand, but when it came back, it looked like it had a rolled spine.

 

Joey, could this be poor disassembly and reassembly? If the top staple wasn't tight, books could be shifting when they are put in the inner well, couldn't they?

[joeypost]

Rarely do I see a cover shrink. While I have not measured a cover to see if it shrinks, my guess would be that the pressing caused the interior pages to flatten and extend past the cover ever so slightly.

 

A true test would be to get a profile shot of the pages on the outside edge of the book and see if they have the traditional "V" shape to them.

 

Hardly a scientific study, but when this thread started I was curious if I could get pages to "squeeze out" as has been suggested. I took a cheap silver-age comic, applied a backer-board over it to even out pressure, and put my full weight into pressing down on the book as hard as I could. I could not get the interior pages to fan out at all... not the tiniest speck... even for the moments while I was actually pressing down, let alone permanently. The fan-out we're seeing here is, what... 1/16th of an inch?

 

Unless you were at an operating temperature of 180-200 degrees and a relative humidity of 80-90% it is not the same.

 

This whole issue got me thinking about an a SC #22 with a loose staple that I had graded once. The book looked to line up when I had it in hand, but when it came back, it looked like it had a rolled spine.

 

Joey, could this be poor disassembly and reassembly? If the top staple wasn't tight, books could be shifting when they are put in the inner well, couldn't they?

 

I have never seen a book encapsulated, so I have no idea what is involved in the process and how pressure is applied to the book during the entire process. Is it possible the inner well "grabs" the cover enough to cause it to torque I cannot say with any certainty. If it was torqued I would think it would manifest itself in other areas since you cannot move "part" of the cover without it introducing a bend or crease elsewhere.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

I'm guessing there is a new trainee in a pressing department somewhere.

[Bomber-Bob]

This whole issue got me thinking about an a SC #22 with a loose staple that I had graded once. The book looked to line up when I had it in hand, but when it came back, it looked like it had a rolled spine.

 

 

I actually experienced that exact situation once. The staples were 'loose' and the Front Cover seemed to cling to the inner well while the rest of the book shifted. I notified CGC and they reholdered it using a couple wedges in the inner well. However, my book was a 9.2 . I don't think loose staples are allowable in 9.6, as most of these books were graded. I also can't see this happening en masse, you need the 'perfect storm'.

[scooter99]

Depends on what one considers terrible, doesn't it?

Indeed.

Pressing is designed firstly and foremostly to get a grade bump at CGC.

If it makes the books look better, that's an added bonus, but it's not a deal-breaker.

 

Look, I'm not here to argue with Board members. I'm just saying I think this is terrible for the hobby. If you guys think this is fine and righteous and want to make fun of my comments, you win. I'm obviously in the minority here anyway as most of you seem to think this is all good.

 

i interpret this as: the intention was to get a grade bump. the books got a grade bump hence it wasn't terrible. of course the books look worse but the intent was achieved.

 

I hear you and I understand that, the mission was accomplished. No argument on that point. But is this acceptable ? Does the grade increase automatically justify the process (whatever it is). If the Boards don't speak out and demand an explanation I suspect we will see a lot more of this.

 

Another mission has been accomplished. That is people that desire beautiful looking copies will avoid these monstrosities like the plague. (thumbs u

[MasterChief]

Depends on what one considers terrible, doesn't it?

Indeed.

Pressing is designed firstly and foremostly to get a grade bump at CGC.

If it makes the books look better, that's an added bonus, but it's not a deal-breaker.

 

Look, I'm not here to argue with Board members. I'm just saying I think this is terrible for the hobby. If you guys think this is fine and righteous and want to make fun of my comments, you win. I'm obviously in the minority here anyway as most of you seem to think this is all good.

You are not alone.

 

And unfortunately, the Cole Schave collection is not the first to echo manifestations of manipulation.

 

There are many others that underwent ruinous material change.

 

Structural degradation as a result of institutionally inspired exploitation of industry recognized restoration standards dates back to the beginning of the certification age.

 

Schmell is quite the wizard at post original-submission grade inflation.

 

You should see what he can do with restorative cover gloss removal.

[Green]

Timeline to think about:

 

Wilson facejobs come to light.

 

CGC (CCS) recalls some of these facejobs to "inspect" them.

 

The next MONTH new and improved, harder to explain nelson facejobs come to light.

 

Coincidence?

[Speedy-D]

Can I just say what a pleasure it is not to be a player in this ultra high grade game?

 

When the difference between a 9.2/9.4/9.6/9.8 is 8 or 10 or 15 times the price tag, how shocked are we supposed to be when this kinda stuff happens?

[MasterChief]

Timeline to think about:

 

Wilson facejobs come to light.

 

CGC (CCS) recalls some of these facejobs to "inspect" them.

 

The next MONTH new and improved, harder to explain nelson facejobs come to light.

 

Coincidence?

Speaking of Wilson… The prodigal son returns.

 

And to fund his next mission, the Wilson-ized inventory runneth over with facejobs a plenty…

 

http://stores.ebay.com/wxproduction?_rdc=1

 

[lizards2]

Timeline to think about:

 

Wilson facejobs come to light.

 

CGC (CCS) recalls some of these facejobs to "inspect" them.

 

The next MONTH new and improved, harder to explain nelson facejobs come to light.

 

Coincidence?

Speaking of Wilson… The prodigal son returns.

 

And to fund his next mission, the Wilson-ized inventory runneth over with facejobs a plenty…

 

http://stores.ebay.com/wxproduction?_rdc=1

wow - it is like every book! ::

[InvstmntComcSuply]

....

Speaking of Wilson… The prodigal son returns.

 

And to fund his next mission, the Wilson-ized inventory runneth over with facejobs a plenty…

 

http://stores.ebay.com/wxproduction?_rdc=1

wow - it is like every book! ::

 

 

Those strangely angled photos from the spine side just scream DON'T LOOK AT THE RIGHT SIDE OF THESE BOOKS!!!!!

 

 

My eyes!!!! My Eyes!!!

[r100comics]

I've recently looked over hundreds of my SA comics. I only found one example that had the right edge fanning in anything close to this severity. This does not happen this often from natural conditions. Assuming these books were submitted in bulk to CGC, why didn't the graders notice this condition and downgrade for it. Instead, it looks like most got bumped up. What the heck is going on, this is mass destruction of nice books. It would be nice to hear from Paul Litch on this matter.

Did you ever stop to think who might actually be pressing these books? Doug isn't pressing them himself.

 

I know there is a lot of insinuation that this happened inhouse at CGC but I just can't believe it. If it's true, all integrity has been lost.

 

Why can't you believe it?

 

Why would Doug start using a different presser now that Matt's with CGC? Beyond Matt's obvious skills, I'd suggest that he has even more reason to continue using Matt these days.

 

The J.I.M. #88 was probably pressed by two different people, as evidenced by the two 9.6 scans. They don't look like the handiwork of the same presser. The first presser was probably Matt, the 2nd presser was "Constanza".

 

The question is, did Cole Schave have the book Constanza'd whilst in his possession or did Doug do it once he'd bought the collection to see if he could get another grade bump before this auction ?

 

Either way, I believe it should have been downgraded from a 9.6 the second time around by CGC due to it being a bad press job.

 

 

[drbanner]

Timeline to think about:

 

Wilson facejobs come to light.

 

CGC (CCS) recalls some of these facejobs to "inspect" them.

 

The next MONTH new and improved, harder to explain nelson facejobs come to light.

 

Coincidence?

Speaking of Wilson… The prodigal son returns.

 

And to fund his next mission, the Wilson-ized inventory runneth over with facejobs a plenty…

 

http://stores.ebay.com/wxproduction?_rdc=1

wow - it is like every book! ::

My back hurts just looking at some of those scans...need PT for spine realignment therapy!

 

Seller lives in Washington, just like the original face-jobber...

[Speedy-D]

....

Speaking of Wilson… The prodigal son returns.

 

And to fund his next mission, the Wilson-ized inventory runneth over with facejobs a plenty…

 

http://stores.ebay.com/wxproduction?_rdc=1

wow - it is like every book! ::

 

 

Those strangely angled photos from the spine side just scream DON'T LOOK AT THE RIGHT SIDE OF THESE BOOKS!!!!!

 

 

My eyes!!!! My Eyes!!!

Totally!

[comicwiz]

Timeline to think about:

 

Wilson facejobs come to light.

 

CGC (CCS) recalls some of these facejobs to "inspect" them.

 

The next MONTH new and improved, harder to explain nelson facejobs come to light.

 

Coincidence?

Speaking of Wilson… The prodigal son returns.

 

And to fund his next mission, the Wilson-ized inventory runneth over with facejobs a plenty…

 

http://stores.ebay.com/wxproduction?_rdc=1

 

Thanks for the heads-up MC!

 

These monstrosities are actually quite telling, and despite his attempts to use flattering angles to hide the reverse spine roll effect from spine shifting, if you look carefully at the so-called "high grade" X-Men 35, you will see the uneven fold line on the spine. You could see this from the dips and butting on the spine, but also through the uneven reflecting of light that runs along the fold line in the photo.

 

That is not a production fold.

 

When you are folding a single sheet, the flexibility in paper (which varies with paper weight/stock) allows for a uniform, even fold line, but when you are folding multiple pages, there are a lot more variables at play. Variables which can only properly be controlled by production binding equipment to evenly produce straight and even fold lines, rather than the kind that screams basement hack job like the X-Men 35.

 

To me that is quite telling that these have had a new spine folded - which I hazard to guess was done manually - to migrate the defects to the rear wrap. A crude fold that might not have been as visible or apparent if this was in a slab. Another thing to note is that this hacks practices don't appear to be exclusive to high-grade books, as the inventory he's moving is a lot of mid-grade silver-age:

[ComicConnoisseur]

Interesting how the usual suspects in the gaming of the system continue to pop up in the middle of these kind of controversies. Like I've always said I don't have a problem with pressing but these examples are just plain ugly.

agree totally

They will keep showing up as long as they find it profitable.

I said before do away with the digital 9 increments. Really is there that big a difference between a 9.6 and 9.8?

For that matter a 9.2 and 9.8?

Maybe if people didn`t spend vast sums of money for not having a stress line or two, then they wouldn`t find it profitable.

I wonder how the person who bought the New Mutants #98 CGC 9.9 for $12,250 feels now about digital 9 increments?

Well, that`s my say on it as an outsider looking in.

I don`t have any monetary say or other knowledge in the matter.

Carry on, and go back to your debates. (thumbs u

[slym2none]

So - 9.0, 9.5, then 10.0?

 

I kinda like it.

 

 

 

-slym

[ComicConnoisseur]

So - 9.0, 9.5, then 10.0?

 

I kinda like it.

 

 

 

-slym

It`s all about the money.

There is a reason why there is no 7.2 to 7.8 or 8.2 to 8.8.

They created artificial value for comic books that for the most part are worth cover price or worthless after you buy them off the rack.

They realized the vast majority of comic books are not even worth a dollar in even nm condition, so they came up with the 9.2,9.4,9.6, 9.8 and 9.9.

It worked as they created a million dollar industry based on artificial value for the vast majority of comic books.

They won`t go back because they will lose too much money if they did.

Pressing goes hand and hand with it. Pressing is the quickest and easiest way for most dealers to turn a profit. Imagine how much money would be lost overnight if somehow pressing would be considered restoration?

It is what it is.

[drbanner]

Timeline to think about:

 

Wilson facejobs come to light.

 

CGC (CCS) recalls some of these facejobs to "inspect" them.

 

The next MONTH new and improved, harder to explain nelson facejobs come to light.

 

Coincidence?

Speaking of Wilson… The prodigal son returns.

 

And to fund his next mission, the Wilson-ized inventory runneth over with facejobs a plenty…

 

http://stores.ebay.com/wxproduction?_rdc=1

wow - it is like every book! ::

Yeah, I'm sure this looks a lot better than it used to.