Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[mschmidt]

If this is so, and it's a defect, shouldn't the graders be grading those books with defects lower? I'm referring to the earlier slabbed books that were shown.

 

That is what I don't understand.,these were supposed to be recent submissions and I believe we were told that they were going to grade the "facejobs" differently.

To me, this is the most bothersome aspect. The fanning of the pages clearly detracts from the appearance of a book in the view of most collectors. However those books may have been technically improved according to CGC's grading standards, it's disappointing that they ended up with higher grades when to most collectors they are less appealing than they were before whatever work was done on them.

 

Seems like a flaw in CGC's grading criteria for this to be possible.

(thumbs u

 

Flaw...loophole...whatever you want to call it, it's a big hot mess. But when you're the one doing the work and also evaluating the quality of your work, you get to make up the rules.

 

I missed the part where it was documented that CCS had anything to do with these books - care to point it out?

[bb8]

What is he doing to those books??

 

 

 

 

-slym

 

Peeling out on the books with a car

And then "fixing" them!

 

 

A few years back in our town, the local health inspector discovered that the Chinese restaurant down the road was using an old Buick in their back parking lot to roll over and shred their cabbage. True story.

 

How did they prepare cat?

 

Masterfully.

[seanfingh]

I wonder if I have any books printed by the Arvel Omics Roup

 

It happens in nature quite a bit. Not every spine that is a 2 cent variant has been face-jobbed.

 

Yes, but didn't we decide that the fanning of the pages along the edge was the giveaway for the Reverse Spine Roll pressing?

 

Apparently the Cole Schave books were not pressed using that technique, as the spine doesn't appear to have shifted, yet, the pages are still fanned out from their previous state.

 

Yeah, but there are also other indicators. The best is when you have before scans and you can show the damage shifting (and the staples). Fanned pages occur in nature as well, and frankly many (i include myself in this camp) have started taking extreme notice of this, when in the past it kind of "was what it was."

 

I consider it very similar to the "smashed" or "pancaked" appearance of a lot of warehouse or hoarded books that have been stored so tightly that the natural plumpness of the spine has been obliterated. Opening the covers of those books is reminiscent of peeling the screen protector off your phone or monitor. When you crack out a pancaked book, it may have been a warehouse find or smush-stored, but based on all the pancake pressing, one's mind almost naturally gravitates to the latter rather than the former, when there is no real evidence pointing to either one.

[slym2none]

I thought this was an odd looking book also

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALL-AMERICAN-COMICS-42-CGC-VF-7-5-Single-Highest-Grade-GREEN-LANTERN-1942-/130750582836?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item1e71579034&nma=true&si=48a1nTq2vHTUDXEp91hjnxRZMrA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

 

That book looks curved, too - and the slab is straight.

 

That particular book, while may possibly have had a facejobbed spine (normal wear shifted around to the back) I have zero problem with its open edge. On the back scan you can see that that open edge is straight and true. If you have access to a paper cutter, do up a few signature folds on a piece of notebook paper, lay 'er into the cutter and have at it -- with even a slightly loose grip, you'll see how the paper will shift and produce a natural curve, just like the original factory trimming here. That's the cause of that particular front cover open edge appearance, as manufactured, nothing nefarious. Possible facejob spine shift is a separate issue on that one.

 

You really think that right edge looks normal. OK.

 

 

 

-slym

[skypinkblu]

Why would one person collect so many books with the same "printing" defect, and how could they possibly assemble that kind of collection?

 

I know you have seen many more books than I have, but I've seen my fair share and it just does not sound plausible. A printing defect where hundreds of one title, one issue#..maybe....but a collection of so many different books all with the same printing defect?

 

I think you are trying to find a nice way around the problem and I applaud you for that, but it just does not make much sense to me....and while your expertise is certainly in comics, mine was in "fact finding".

 

 

Sharon,

Who are you talking about when you refer to an individual collector with so many books with the same defects? I haven't looked at any of the Schave books, other than what was posted here. And I am not trying to say at all that this could not be done. I am certainly not saying that the books in the Cole Schave collection haven't been altered in some way. It is clear by the scans that Bob posted, those books are different than they were originally. With that being said, it would not surprise me at all if many of the other books have been altered in the same way.

 

What I am saying is this, for all those people who are seeing these books everywhere, is that this type of page fanning sometimes occurs naturally in many cases, whether it was due to printing or improper storage or whatever. Clearly, it could occur from an unnatural process as well.

 

 

I was talking about the title of the thread, Dale "Cole Schave collection". I definitely have owned books where pages are sticking out at the right edge, usually because the cover is pulled back from reading, but there absolutely are some others. SOME, not a high percentage.

 

I just found it odd that someone (Cole Schave) would collect them, deliberately...and if you look at Bob's examples of the ones he owned previously, of course there was manipulation.

 

I'm not even claiming nefarious "manipulation", but moving the cover like that makes the book less pretty even to a lower grade collector such as myself.

 

Whatever new method is being used to garner higher grades that creates these partially clothed books, everyone, the manipulators and the graders should just give it up;)

 

I hate to think anything is being done nefariously, but this once again, is the reason I wish pressing was disclosed. There is no reason that CGC couldn't disclose it if they do it themselves, nor if they see facejobs, etc. I know it will mess up the people who already have pressed books, but heck, they made the change with tape, why not stop this silliness from ruining books, it's not really any better than taping a book with bad tape to get a higher grade?

 

[namisgr]

I don't think Cole Schave collected comics looking for this particular defect. According to Doug's website, he purchased the entire collection. Given that the dozens of books with the 11977... certification numbers that almost uniformly have the 'Constanza' look were graded just within the past month, it's likely that Doug had the books pressed and re-graded before offering them up in his auction.

[Silver Surfer]

Someone should get some labels made up for the "Schave collection" and have this image on them:

[Flaming_Telepath]

I don't think Cole Schave collected comics looking for this particular defect. According to Doug's website, he purchased the entire collection. Given that the dozens of books with the 11977... certification numbers that almost uniformly have the 'Constanza' look were graded just within the past month, it's likely that Doug had the books pressed and re-graded before offering them up in his auction.

 

And Doug uses Matt for his pressing needs.

[500Club]

If this is so, and it's a defect, shouldn't the graders be grading those books with defects lower? I'm referring to the earlier slabbed books that were shown.

 

That is what I don't understand.,these were supposed to be recent submissions and I believe we were told that they were going to grade the "facejobs" differently.

To me, this is the most bothersome aspect. The fanning of the pages clearly detracts from the appearance of a book in the view of most collectors. However those books may have been technically improved according to CGC's grading standards, it's disappointing that they ended up with higher grades when to most collectors they are less appealing than they were before whatever work was done on them.

 

Seems like a flaw in CGC's grading criteria for this to be possible.

(thumbs u

 

Flaw...loophole...whatever you want to call it, it's a big hot mess. But when you're the one doing the work and also evaluating the quality of your work, you get to make up the rules.

 

I missed the part where it was documented that CCS had anything to do with these books - care to point it out?

+1

 

I think we need a little more in the way of facts before we start pointing fingers at Matt Nelson. Granted, Doug has used Matt in the past, but that in no way guarantees he used him for this batch of books.

[originalisbest]

If this is so, and it's a defect, shouldn't the graders be grading those books with defects lower? I'm referring to the earlier slabbed books that were shown.

 

That is what I don't understand.,these were supposed to be recent submissions and I believe we were told that they were going to grade the "facejobs" differently.

To me, this is the most bothersome aspect. The fanning of the pages clearly detracts from the appearance of a book in the view of most collectors. However those books may have been technically improved according to CGC's grading standards, it's disappointing that they ended up with higher grades when to most collectors they are less appealing than they were before whatever work was done on them.

 

Seems like a flaw in CGC's grading criteria for this to be possible.

(thumbs u

 

Flaw...loophole...whatever you want to call it, it's a big hot mess. But when you're the one doing the work and also evaluating the quality of your work, you get to make up the rules.

 

I missed the part where it was documented that CCS had anything to do with these books - care to point it out?

 

I second that emotion... Haven't seen it said or proven anywhere that matt or ccs were responsible for these maybe facejob/maybe costanza books. I personally highly doubt it.

[thehumantorch]

Timeline to think about:

 

Wilson facejobs come to light.

 

CGC (CCS) recalls some of these facejobs to "inspect" them.

 

The next MONTH new and improved, harder to explain nelson facejobs come to light.

 

Coincidence?

Speaking of Wilson… The prodigal son returns.

 

And to fund his next mission, the Wilson-ized inventory runneth over with facejobs a plenty…

 

http://stores.ebay.com/wxproduction?_rdc=1

wow - it is like every book! ::

Yeah, I'm sure this looks a lot better than it used to.

 

 

Jeebus, that's ugly. Looks like he used the fridge door to press it. Think I even see the Frigidaire imprint on the cover.

[originalisbest]

I thought this was an odd looking book also

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALL-AMERICAN-COMICS-42-CGC-VF-7-5-Single-Highest-Grade-GREEN-LANTERN-1942-/130750582836?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item1e71579034&nma=true&si=48a1nTq2vHTUDXEp91hjnxRZMrA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

 

That book looks curved, too - and the slab is straight.

 

That particular book, while may possibly have had a facejobbed spine (normal wear shifted around to the back) I have zero problem with its open edge. On the back scan you can see that that open edge is straight and true. If you have access to a paper cutter, do up a few signature folds on a piece of notebook paper, lay 'er into the cutter and have at it -- with even a slightly loose grip, you'll see how the paper will shift and produce a natural curve, just like the original factory trimming here. That's the cause of that particular front cover open edge appearance, as manufactured, nothing nefarious. Possible facejob spine shift is a separate issue on that one.

 

You really think that right edge looks normal. OK.

 

 

 

-slym

 

You bet your bippy I do, particularly on a fat ga book such as this one. Would you care to define specifically where you think my take is off-base?

[Flaming_Telepath]

[Silver Surfer]

If this is so, and it's a defect, shouldn't the graders be grading those books with defects lower? I'm referring to the earlier slabbed books that were shown.

 

That is what I don't understand.,these were supposed to be recent submissions and I believe we were told that they were going to grade the "facejobs" differently.

To me, this is the most bothersome aspect. The fanning of the pages clearly detracts from the appearance of a book in the view of most collectors. However those books may have been technically improved according to CGC's grading standards, it's disappointing that they ended up with higher grades when to most collectors they are less appealing than they were before whatever work was done on them.

 

Seems like a flaw in CGC's grading criteria for this to be possible.

(thumbs u

 

Flaw...loophole...whatever you want to call it, it's a big hot mess. But when you're the one doing the work and also evaluating the quality of your work, you get to make up the rules.

 

I missed the part where it was documented that CCS had anything to do with these books - care to point it out?

 

I second that emotion... Haven't seen it said or proven anywhere that matt or ccs were responsible for these maybe facejob/maybe costanza books. I personally highly doubt it.

 

Well either way if they are involved I don't expect that we will hear them chime in or Doug for that matter. If it was me and I didn't do the work you could bet that I would be vocal about it, wouldn't you?

[drbanner]

I don't think Cole Schave collected comics looking for this particular defect. According to Doug's website, he purchased the entire collection. Given that the dozens of books with the 11977... certification numbers that almost uniformly have the 'Constanza' look were graded just within the past month, it's likely that Doug had the books pressed and re-graded before offering them up in his auction.

Yep, it's painfully obvious what happened here...unless you don't want to see the truth laid out in plain sight before your eyes.

[Prince Namor]

If this is so, and it's a defect, shouldn't the graders be grading those books with defects lower? I'm referring to the earlier slabbed books that were shown.

 

That is what I don't understand.,these were supposed to be recent submissions and I believe we were told that they were going to grade the "facejobs" differently.

To me, this is the most bothersome aspect. The fanning of the pages clearly detracts from the appearance of a book in the view of most collectors. However those books may have been technically improved according to CGC's grading standards, it's disappointing that they ended up with higher grades when to most collectors they are less appealing than they were before whatever work was done on them.

 

Seems like a flaw in CGC's grading criteria for this to be possible.

(thumbs u

 

Flaw...loophole...whatever you want to call it, it's a big hot mess. But when you're the one doing the work and also evaluating the quality of your work, you get to make up the rules.

 

I missed the part where it was documented that CCS had anything to do with these books - care to point it out?

+1

 

I think we need a little more in the way of facts before we start pointing fingers at Matt Nelson. Granted, Doug has used Matt in the past, but that in no way guarantees he used him for this batch of books.

 

+1. This whole thread is the definition of unsubstantiated accusations.

[thirdgreenham]

If this is so, and it's a defect, shouldn't the graders be grading those books with defects lower? I'm referring to the earlier slabbed books that were shown.

 

That is what I don't understand.,these were supposed to be recent submissions and I believe we were told that they were going to grade the "facejobs" differently.

To me, this is the most bothersome aspect. The fanning of the pages clearly detracts from the appearance of a book in the view of most collectors. However those books may have been technically improved according to CGC's grading standards, it's disappointing that they ended up with higher grades when to most collectors they are less appealing than they were before whatever work was done on them.

 

Seems like a flaw in CGC's grading criteria for this to be possible.

(thumbs u

 

Flaw...loophole...whatever you want to call it, it's a big hot mess. But when you're the one doing the work and also evaluating the quality of your work, you get to make up the rules.

 

I missed the part where it was documented that CCS had anything to do with these books - care to point it out?

+1

 

I think we need a little more in the way of facts before we start pointing fingers at Matt Nelson. Granted, Doug has used Matt in the past, but that in no way guarantees he used him for this batch of books.

 

+1. This whole thread is the definition of unsubstantiated accusations.

 

[Mmehdy]

The things that are being done to either cheat or beat or push thru the system are amazing. I don't think anybody will ever find out the truth here; that is not the point, the CGC needs to restructure the grading system to avoid rewarding of pressing etc.

 

The solution is simple. Eliminate the blue, green and purple, and create a universal standard which confirms the book is real, and then a 10 point grading system which subtracts from the total for resto, tape, etc.

 

As Bob Dylan said, the times they are a changing.

[skypinkblu]

The things that are being done to either cheat or beat or push thru the system are amazing. I don't think anybody will ever find out the truth here; that is not the point, the CGC needs to restructure the grading system to avoid rewarding of pressing etc.

 

The solution is simple. Eliminate the blue, green and purple, and create a universal standard which confirms the book is real, and then a 10 point grading system which subtracts from the total for resto, tape, etc.

 

As Bob Dylan said, the times they are a changing.

 

OK, who are you and what have you done with Mitch?

 

[skypinkblu]

If this is so, and it's a defect, shouldn't the graders be grading those books with defects lower? I'm referring to the earlier slabbed books that were shown.

 

That is what I don't understand.,these were supposed to be recent submissions and I believe we were told that they were going to grade the "facejobs" differently.

To me, this is the most bothersome aspect. The fanning of the pages clearly detracts from the appearance of a book in the view of most collectors. However those books may have been technically improved according to CGC's grading standards, it's disappointing that they ended up with higher grades when to most collectors they are less appealing than they were before whatever work was done on them.

 

Seems like a flaw in CGC's grading criteria for this to be possible.

(thumbs u

 

Flaw...loophole...whatever you want to call it, it's a big hot mess. But when you're the one doing the work and also evaluating the quality of your work, you get to make up the rules.

 

I missed the part where it was documented that CCS had anything to do with these books - care to point it out?

+1

 

I think we need a little more in the way of facts before we start pointing fingers at Matt Nelson. Granted, Doug has used Matt in the past, but that in no way guarantees he used him for this batch of books.

 

+1. This whole thread is the definition of unsubstantiated accusations.

 

I read back through it after reading your post. I think there are a few accusations, some deflections, some shock, some disbelief and a lot of questions and a few suppositions.

 

About par for the course.

 

Except there seem to be LESS "accusations" than usual...unless you count questions about CGC's stance on grading books that look like these accusations.

 

I haven't even seen any burning witches...

 

But there are questions and this is a good way to try to brainstorm (as long as the pitchforks are kept at home;)