Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[Dale Roberts]

Timeline to think about:

 

Wilson facejobs come to light.

 

CGC (CCS) recalls some of these facejobs to "inspect" them.

 

The next MONTH new and improved, harder to explain nelson facejobs come to light.

 

Coincidence?

Speaking of Wilson… The prodigal son returns.

 

And to fund his next mission, the Wilson-ized inventory runneth over with facejobs a plenty…

 

http://stores.ebay.com/wxproduction?_rdc=1

wow - it is like every book! ::

Yeah, I'm sure this looks a lot better than it used to.

 

 

Jeebus, that's ugly. Looks like he used the fridge door to press it. Think I even see the Frigidaire imprint on the cover.

 

Is there any evidence that this book has been pressed? Why on earth would anyone press anything that ugly to start with? I see non color breaking stuff all over it, not to mention that the 2000 color breaks on it.

[Boboset]

Timeline to think about:

 

Wilson facejobs come to light.

 

CGC (CCS) recalls some of these facejobs to "inspect" them.

 

The next MONTH new and improved, harder to explain nelson facejobs come to light.

 

Coincidence?

Speaking of Wilson… The prodigal son returns.

 

And to fund his next mission, the Wilson-ized inventory runneth over with facejobs a plenty…

 

http://stores.ebay.com/wxproduction?_rdc=1

wow - it is like every book! ::

Yeah, I'm sure this looks a lot better than it used to.

 

 

Jeebus, that's ugly. Looks like he used the fridge door to press it. Think I even see the Frigidaire imprint on the cover.

 

Is there any evidence that this book has been pressed? Why on earth would anyone press anything that ugly to start with? I see non color breaking stuff all over it, not to mention that the 2000 color breaks on it.

 

Dude must have a lot of time on his hands.

 

[Bomber-Bob]

I don't think Cole Schave collected comics looking for this particular defect. According to Doug's website, he purchased the entire collection. Given that the dozens of books with the 11977... certification numbers that almost uniformly have the 'Constanza' look were graded just within the past month, it's likely that Doug had the books pressed and re-graded before offering them up in his auction.

 

The irony here is that Doug states the collector was picky = in their present state the Owner of the collection would not want these books.

 

'This is a fabulous collection of ultra high grade early Silver Age Marvels from the private collection of Cole Schave, a noted collector out of Green Bay, Wisconsin, that we purchased in July for $600,000. Known to many dealers across the country, Mr. Schave is a very picky high grade CGC buyer who does not buy a book solely for the grade on the label. He focuses on superior page quality, registration and eye appeal and would routinely pass on many books he needed for his collection if they did not meet his strict criteria. Therefore, all the books in his collection have superior page quality (white or off-white to white with only a couple with off-white), structure, centering and presentation, with no date stamps, writings, etc., etc.'

 

[slym2none]

I thought this was an odd looking book also

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALL-AMERICAN-COMICS-42-CGC-VF-7-5-Single-Highest-Grade-GREEN-LANTERN-1942-/130750582836?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item1e71579034&nma=true&si=48a1nTq2vHTUDXEp91hjnxRZMrA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

 

That book looks curved, too - and the slab is straight.

 

That particular book, while may possibly have had a facejobbed spine (normal wear shifted around to the back) I have zero problem with its open edge. On the back scan you can see that that open edge is straight and true. If you have access to a paper cutter, do up a few signature folds on a piece of notebook paper, lay 'er into the cutter and have at it -- with even a slightly loose grip, you'll see how the paper will shift and produce a natural curve, just like the original factory trimming here. That's the cause of that particular front cover open edge appearance, as manufactured, nothing nefarious. Possible facejob spine shift is a separate issue on that one.

 

You really think that right edge looks normal. OK.

 

You bet your bippy I do, particularly on a fat ga book such as this one. Would you care to define specifically where you think my take is off-base?

 

I wasn't asking a question, and I think I have answered your question in my previous posts.

 

 

 

-slym

[Prince Namor]

If this is so, and it's a defect, shouldn't the graders be grading those books with defects lower? I'm referring to the earlier slabbed books that were shown.

 

That is what I don't understand.,these were supposed to be recent submissions and I believe we were told that they were going to grade the "facejobs" differently.

To me, this is the most bothersome aspect. The fanning of the pages clearly detracts from the appearance of a book in the view of most collectors. However those books may have been technically improved according to CGC's grading standards, it's disappointing that they ended up with higher grades when to most collectors they are less appealing than they were before whatever work was done on them.

 

Seems like a flaw in CGC's grading criteria for this to be possible.

(thumbs u

 

Flaw...loophole...whatever you want to call it, it's a big hot mess. But when you're the one doing the work and also evaluating the quality of your work, you get to make up the rules.

 

I missed the part where it was documented that CCS had anything to do with these books - care to point it out?

+1

 

I think we need a little more in the way of facts before we start pointing fingers at Matt Nelson. Granted, Doug has used Matt in the past, but that in no way guarantees he used him for this batch of books.

 

+1. This whole thread is the definition of unsubstantiated accusations.

 

I read back through it after reading your post. I think there are a few accusations, some deflections, some shock, some disbelief and a lot of questions and a few suppositions.

 

About par for the course.

 

Except there seem to be LESS "accusations" than usual...unless you count questions about CGC's stance on grading books that look like these accusations.

 

I haven't even seen any burning witches...

 

But there are questions and this is a good way to try to brainstorm (as long as the pitchforks are kept at home;)

 

Take away the accusation that the books have to be pressed to look this way, which no one has proven, and that CCS is involved, which no one has proven and you pretty much have no discussion.

I'm no detective, but when your first two steps are pure speculation and involve the discrediting of professional reputations, polite company may cry foul.

[thehumantorch]

Timeline to think about:

 

Wilson facejobs come to light.

 

CGC (CCS) recalls some of these facejobs to "inspect" them.

 

The next MONTH new and improved, harder to explain nelson facejobs come to light.

 

Coincidence?

Speaking of Wilson… The prodigal son returns.

 

And to fund his next mission, the Wilson-ized inventory runneth over with facejobs a plenty…

 

http://stores.ebay.com/wxproduction?_rdc=1

wow - it is like every book! ::

Yeah, I'm sure this looks a lot better than it used to.

 

 

Jeebus, that's ugly. Looks like he used the fridge door to press it. Think I even see the Frigidaire imprint on the cover.

 

Is there any evidence that this book has been pressed? Why on earth would anyone press anything that ugly to start with? I see non color breaking stuff all over it, not to mention that the 2000 color breaks on it.

 

I was kidding.

 

But when a seller's books or a collection comes to market and a large percentage of the books exhibit this flaw there's something wrong. Almost anyone can pull books out of their collection with a similar flaw but it's not common.

[Bomber-Bob]

Just to put us back on track, we are discussing the Cole Shave collection,

purchased by Pedigreecomics, with many books resubbed displaying a new 'look'. Without any accusations, something terrible happened to these books,

advertised as having superior centering and eye appeal.

 

Note the many examples with 119771... certification numbers. Look at the before and after on the JIM 93:

 

 

 

[Prince Namor]

Why doesn't somebody just call him and ask him?

[Mmehdy]

The things that are being done to either cheat or beat or push thru the system are amazing. I don't think anybody will ever find out the truth here; that is not the point, the CGC needs to restructure the grading system to avoid rewarding of pressing etc.

 

The solution is simple. Eliminate the blue, green and purple, and create a universal standard which confirms the book is real, and then a 10 point grading system which subtracts from the total for resto, tape, etc.

 

As Bob Dylan said, the times they are a changing.

 

OK, who are you and what have you done with Mitch?

 

 

For the long term value of comic book collecting, the madness has to stop.

[Bomber-Bob]

Why doesn't somebody just call him and ask him?

 

Chuck, not sure if you read the whole thread but this was suggested.

It was also suggested that somebody contact Paul Litch to ask why these books with the fanned right edges were bumped up. For me, Sharon, and others, the feeling is CGC should have downgraded them. Joey has volunteered to ask CGC on Friday. While no one specifically knows, the general feeling is pressing with high humidity caused the covers to shrink.

Bob Storms gave the new look a name, 'Constanzas', a Seinfeld reference to shrinkage of a different nature. We are asking more questions than making accusations.

[Prince Namor]

The things that are being done to either cheat or beat or push thru the system are amazing. I don't think anybody will ever find out the truth here; that is not the point, the CGC needs to restructure the grading system to avoid rewarding of pressing etc.

 

The solution is simple. Eliminate the blue, green and purple, and create a universal standard which confirms the book is real, and then a 10 point grading system which subtracts from the total for resto, tape, etc.

 

As Bob Dylan said, the times they are a changing.

 

OK, who are you and what have you done with Mitch?

 

 

For the long term value of comic book collecting, the madness has to stop.

 

Mitch, I know we're talking about it on a much higher dollar value than ever before, but didn't this go on before CGC in much more unspoken terms?

Pre-CGC, I can't even imagine the number of books sold that had undisclosed restoration, undisclosed color touch, amateur pressing and questionable grading.

If this is a travesty to the integrity of pristine raw books, wouldn't a better path be to try and find a way to better educate the buyers who aren't as aware of all of the knowledge shared on these boards? CGC buyers are a small percentage of the hobby, so it doesn't seem impossible.

At least people would know what they're buying.

The CGC isn't OURS. It's a business and as a business it's always going to have a conflict of interest in trying to increase its number of submissions. Less upgrades means less dollars available and a smaller market for high dollar books.

As much as the CGC is concerned about the integrity of what they do, MORE submissions, especially upgraded submissions ultimately means more money for them.

What is it you see as happening if the trend continues?

 

[Prince Namor]

Why doesn't somebody just call him and ask him?

 

Chuck, not sure if you read the whole thread but this was suggested.

It was also suggested that somebody contact Paul Litch to ask why these books with the fanned right edges were bumped up. For me, Sharon, and others, the feeling is CGC should have downgraded them. Joey has volunteered to ask CGC on Friday. While no one specifically knows, the general feeling is pressing with high humidity caused the covers to shrink.

Bob Storms gave the new look a name, 'Constanzas', a Seinfeld reference to shrinkage of a different nature. We are asking more questions than making accusations.

 

I just think jumping to a conclusion that CCS might be involved could lead to people taking it as fact and that's not really fair to them.

I'm surprised with the small size of this community someone doesn't know someone who has a little more solid information to go on before... the speculation of what it is gets out of hand.

I do understand the concern of it, and hopefully we learn more here shortly.

[Mmehdy]

The things that are being done to either cheat or beat or push thru the system are amazing. I don't think anybody will ever find out the truth here; that is not the point, the CGC needs to restructure the grading system to avoid rewarding of pressing etc.

 

The solution is simple. Eliminate the blue, green and purple, and create a universal standard which confirms the book is real, and then a 10 point grading system which subtracts from the total for resto, tape, etc.

 

As Bob Dylan said, the times they are a changing.

 

OK, who are you and what have you done with Mitch?

 

 

For the long term value of comic book collecting, the madness has to stop.

 

Mitch, I know we're talking about it on a much higher dollar value than ever before, but didn't this go on before CGC in much more unspoken terms?

Pre-CGC, I can't even imagine the number of books sold that had undisclosed restoration, undisclosed color touch, amateur pressing and questionable grading.

If this is a travesty to the integrity of pristine raw books, wouldn't a better path be to try and find a way to better educate the buyers who aren't as aware of all of the knowledge shared on these boards? CGC buyers are a small percentage of the hobby, so it doesn't seem impossible.

At least people would know what they're buying.

The CGC isn't OURS. It's a business and as a business it's always going to have a conflict of interest in trying to increase its number of submissions. Less upgrades means less dollars available and a smaller market for high dollar books.

As much as the CGC is concerned about the integrity of what they do, MORE submissions, especially upgraded submissions ultimately means more money for them.

What is it you see as happening if the trend continues?

 

The CGC is the best thing to ever happen to comic book collecting. If you consider a restored book in the early days, please remember the prices were not anywhere near what they are today, they laughed at me paying 1801 bucks for a comic book.

 

The stakes are much higher today, Blue lable= GOLD, money in the bank, 10 times guide and insanity.

 

To make something better than what it really is to beat the system and line your pockets is not good for the long term stability of comic book collecting and paying prices in which you can rely on them to retain some if not all of your purchase price some reasonable amount of money in the futrure.

 

Repair today, in some instances cannot be detected. The CGC knows this, I know this and you know this. With more money at stake, more files come around, waiting to "beat the system" ( As Thomas Crown said after robbing banks, not for the money, see steve and faye on that one).

There is ongoing a wave of restoration that cannot be detected, the system has to change to eliminate the 10X the price difference between Blue and Green or Purple to keep comic book collecting safe and sound for the future.

 

A new system needs to be created to keep all book equal, with subtractions for repair, tape, pressing, etc. Otherwise expect price stability to go out the window, buyer confidence to drop, and 95% OF ALL BOOKS TO TAKE A HIT.

 

It is not too late to fix things, the CGC controls this market whether you like it or not. They have the power to fight to save sanity in the comic book world.

 

Greed is the killer her, maybe in all society. But the trend of the big collectors is to move away from comic books to original comic book art which does not have as many issues.

[Prince Namor]

The things that are being done to either cheat or beat or push thru the system are amazing. I don't think anybody will ever find out the truth here; that is not the point, the CGC needs to restructure the grading system to avoid rewarding of pressing etc.

 

The solution is simple. Eliminate the blue, green and purple, and create a universal standard which confirms the book is real, and then a 10 point grading system which subtracts from the total for resto, tape, etc.

 

As Bob Dylan said, the times they are a changing.

 

OK, who are you and what have you done with Mitch?

 

 

For the long term value of comic book collecting, the madness has to stop.

 

Mitch, I know we're talking about it on a much higher dollar value than ever before, but didn't this go on before CGC in much more unspoken terms?

Pre-CGC, I can't even imagine the number of books sold that had undisclosed restoration, undisclosed color touch, amateur pressing and questionable grading.

If this is a travesty to the integrity of pristine raw books, wouldn't a better path be to try and find a way to better educate the buyers who aren't as aware of all of the knowledge shared on these boards? CGC buyers are a small percentage of the hobby, so it doesn't seem impossible.

At least people would know what they're buying.

The CGC isn't OURS. It's a business and as a business it's always going to have a conflict of interest in trying to increase its number of submissions. Less upgrades means less dollars available and a smaller market for high dollar books.

As much as the CGC is concerned about the integrity of what they do, MORE submissions, especially upgraded submissions ultimately means more money for them.

What is it you see as happening if the trend continues?

 

The CGC is the best thing to ever happen to comic book collecting. If you consider a restored book in the early days, please remember the prices were not anywhere near what they are today, they laughed at me paying 1801 bucks for a comic book.

 

The stakes are much higher today, Blue lable= GOLD, money in the bank, 10 times guide and insanity.

 

To make something better than what it really is to beat the system and line your pockets is not good for the long term stability of comic book collecting and paying prices in which you can rely on them to retain some if not all of your purchase price some reasonable amount of money in the futrure.

 

Repair today, in some instances cannot be detected. The CGC knows this, I know this and you know this. With more money at stake, more files come around, waiting to "beat the system" ( As Thomas Crown said after robbing banks, not for the money, see steve and faye on that one).

There is ongoing a wave of restoration that cannot be detected, the system has to change to eliminate the 10X the price difference between Blue and Green or Purple to keep comic book collecting save and sound for the future.

 

A new system needs to be created to keep all book equal, with subtractions for repair, tape, pressing, etc. Otherwise expect price stability to go out the window, buyer confidence to drop, and 95% OF ALL BOOKS TO TAKE A HIT.

 

It is not too late to fix things, the CGC controls this market whether you like it or not. They have the power to fight to save sanity in the comic book world.

 

I agree that the CGC is the best thing to happen to collecting, especially in detecting restoration, color touch, etc. and giving us an accepted third party grading system to make things overall fair vs ambiguous grading from strangers.

I'm confident in that they want to be fair in their approach to the market, but... getting them to accept that they are responsible for it is a slippery slope. They put themselves in a precarious position by doing that.

It's why I believe that we need to do more ourselves to educate the CGC buyer. It's easy to sit back and complain and expect the CGC or the market to correct itself. I don't see it happening that way.

It's a social media world. We have a tremendous amount of resources and people right here. It can be done.

[MasterChief]

I thought this was an odd looking book also. I don't know

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALL-AMERICAN-COMICS-42-CGC-VF-7-5-Single-Highest-Grade-GREEN-LANTERN-1942-/130750582836?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item1e71579034&nma=true&si=48a1nTq2vHTUDXEp91hjnxRZMrA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

 

That book received the treatment, too.

 

6.0 copy acquired last year via Heritage. Copy recertified 7.5 three weeks after auction close.

 

"dizneyart" recently listed the book for sale on eBay. Seller ended listing on August 9, 2013 because "the item is no longer available".

 

Then "pgcmint" listed the book on eBay. Seller ended listing on September 3, 2013 because "the item is no longer available".

 

 

 

 

 

Heritage:

All-American Comics #42 (DC, 1942) CGC FN 6.0 Cream to off-white pages (1st Sale)

All-American Comics #42 (DC, 1942) CGC FN 6.0 Cream to off-white pages (2nd Sale)

 

eBay:

ALL-AMERICAN COMICS #42 CGC VF 7.5 - Single Highest Grade - GREEN LANTERN 1942 (August 2013)

ALL-AMERICAN COMICS #42 CGC VF 7.5 - Single Highest Grade - GREEN LANTERN! 1942 (September 2013)

 

[Aces]

Rarely do I see a cover shrink. While I have not measured a cover to see if it shrinks, my guess would be that the pressing caused the interior pages to flatten and extend past the cover ever so slightly.

 

A true test would be to get a profile shot of the pages on the outside edge of the book and see if they have the traditional "V" shape to them.

 

Hardly a scientific study, but when this thread started I was curious if I could get pages to "squeeze out" as has been suggested. I took a cheap silver-age comic, applied a backer-board over it to even out pressure, and put my full weight into pressing down on the book as hard as I could. I could not get the interior pages to fan out at all... not the tiniest speck... even for the moments while I was actually pressing down, let alone permanently. The fan-out we're seeing here is, what... 1/16th of an inch?

 

Unless you were at an operating temperature of 180-200 degrees and a relative humidity of 80-90% it is not the same.

 

Do you think if the cover was made wet (by high humidity) then heated in the press (thus drying it fast) could cause cover shrinkage? That's what happens to clothes when they go from the washer to the dryer. Cloth fibers/paper fibers retract don't they once moistened then heated and dried out?

 

[originalisbest]

I thought this was an odd looking book also

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALL-AMERICAN-COMICS-42-CGC-VF-7-5-Single-Highest-Grade-GREEN-LANTERN-1942-/130750582836?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item1e71579034&nma=true&si=48a1nTq2vHTUDXEp91hjnxRZMrA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

 

That book looks curved, too - and the slab is straight.

 

That particular book, while may possibly have had a facejobbed spine (normal wear shifted around to the back) I have zero problem with its open edge. On the back scan you can see that that open edge is straight and true. If you have access to a paper cutter, do up a few signature folds on a piece of notebook paper, lay 'er into the cutter and have at it -- with even a slightly loose grip, you'll see how the paper will shift and produce a natural curve, just like the original factory trimming here. That's the cause of that particular front cover open edge appearance, as manufactured, nothing nefarious. Possible facejob spine shift is a separate issue on that one.

 

You really think that right edge looks normal. OK.

 

You bet your bippy I do, particularly on a fat ga book such as this one. Would you care to define specifically where you think my take is off-base?

 

I wasn't asking a question, and I think I have answered your question in my previous posts.

 

 

 

-slym

 

Very well then, I'll just take it as you're ignorant on how the open, trimmed edge of a fat GA book CAN appear, as manufactured (nothing whatsoever to do with whether that particular book was also facejobbed), and are content to remain so. Because by the nature of your non-question, you seem to think there's a problem with the appearance of its open edge (specifically, what you seem to see as an unnatural curvature.)

[Rip]

[originalisbest]

I thought this was an odd looking book also. I don't know

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALL-AMERICAN-COMICS-42-CGC-VF-7-5-Single-Highest-Grade-GREEN-LANTERN-1942-/130750582836?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item1e71579034&nma=true&si=48a1nTq2vHTUDXEp91hjnxRZMrA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

 

That book received the treatment, too.

 

6.0 copy acquired last year via Heritage. Copy recertified 7.5 three weeks after auction close.

 

"dizneyart" recently listed the book for sale on eBay. Seller ended listing on August 9, 2013 because "the item is no longer available".

 

Then "pgcmint" listed the book on eBay. Seller ended listing on September 3, 2013 because "the item is no longer available".

 

 

 

 

 

Heritage:

All-American Comics #42 (DC, 1942) CGC FN 6.0 Cream to off-white pages (1st Sale)

All-American Comics #42 (DC, 1942) CGC FN 6.0 Cream to off-white pages (2nd Sale)

 

eBay:

ALL-AMERICAN COMICS #42 CGC VF 7.5 - Single Highest Grade - GREEN LANTERN 1942 (August 2013)

ALL-AMERICAN COMICS #42 CGC VF 7.5 - Single Highest Grade - GREEN LANTERN! 1942 (September 2013)

 

Nice find! Though this book was indeed facejobbed, that is a problem only in that the wear is still there (just shifted around to the back) and so the book was graded (apparently) with more weight given to the facial appearance. We've been over that thoroughly, in different threads. It looks to me though, that the facejobbing, while it made more prevalent a fanning/twist to the cover's angle; didn't alter at all, the curvature already present in the cover's open edge, as it was made.

 

Here, it looks like a classic facejob in that wear in the middle spine and upper left corner chip being moved towards the back resulted in the grade bump. Pretty clever but something that the CGC should've caught, with a more careful look at the backside. It's a shame that the spine was tweaked in that way, as the book's upper edge on the back cover improved greatly in its appearance (the goal of a "good" press.) Oh well.

 

Still doesn't seem to be the same situation as the shrinky-cover Schave books, so will be curious to see what Joey is able to report back on that front.

[originalisbest]

I just noticed the PQ bump on the labels, too. IMOO, this just gives me more confidence in the stance that PQ really doesn't matter to me, so long as it's not truly tan/or brittle. Otherwise it just seems to be a sliding scale that changes depending on the time and the particular grader's take.