Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[Bomber-Bob]

Depends on what one considers terrible, doesn't it?

Indeed.

Pressing is designed firstly and foremostly to get a grade bump at CGC.

If it makes the books look better, that's an added bonus, but it's not a deal-breaker.

 

Look, I'm not here to argue with Board members. I'm just saying I think this is terrible for the hobby. If you guys think this is fine and righteous and want to make fun of my comments, you win. I'm obviously in the minority here anyway as most of you seem to think this is all good.

[Boboset]

Depends on what one considers terrible, doesn't it?

Indeed.

Pressing is designed firstly and foremostly to get a grade bump at CGC.

If it makes the books look better, that's an added bonus, but it's not a deal-breaker.

 

Look, I'm not here to argue with Board members. I'm just saying I think this is terrible for the hobby. If you guys think this is fine and righteous and want to make fun of my comments, you win. I'm obviously in the minority here anyway as most of you seem to think this is all good.

 

I hope you're not in the minority. This is destruction of gorgeous books and it infuriates me.

[pemart1966]

Is this the photo, or possibly on the case?

 

It looks like one or two color flecks disappeared.

 

 

 

There may be a spot on the left side of Thor's trunk that's appears to be no longer there in the 9.6. Additionally, the printed "R"s are different. Looks as if it's been tidied up on the 9.6. Thoughts?

[drbanner]

I just looked at all my books knowing I have very few books with exposed RH pages...of approximately 200 books I can count the number that have exposed pages on two hands. And NOT ONE book has exposed pages visible from top to bottom...more commonly exposed at top right approx. 1/16" and tapering down to not exposed.

 

There is just WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too many of these not to arrive at the conclusion that there has been massive manipulation with the same technique and same dubious result...booo!

(thumbs u

 

I now consider all books like these with the tell-tale RH pages extending beyond the cover at the bottom edge as having been deformed and are now undesirable. The reverse spine roll technique is bad in and of itself, but this just plain makes the book look ugly and whoever is doing it needs to learn what the heck they're doing so as not to destroy any more books.

 

On that note, another forum member posted a link to his ebay sales and was asked about this book but never responded...this is exactly the kind of ugly- book I plan on avoiding in the future.

 

[paperheart]

Depends on what one considers terrible, doesn't it?

Indeed.

Pressing is designed firstly and foremostly to get a grade bump at CGC.

If it makes the books look better, that's an added bonus, but it's not a deal-breaker.

 

Look, I'm not here to argue with Board members. I'm just saying I think this is terrible for the hobby. If you guys think this is fine and righteous and want to make fun of my comments, you win. I'm obviously in the minority here anyway as most of you seem to think this is all good.

 

i interpret this as: the intention was to get a grade bump. the books got a grade bump hence it wasn't terrible. of course the books look worse but the intent was achieved.

[thehumantorch]

Depends on what one considers terrible, doesn't it?

Indeed.

Pressing is designed firstly and foremostly to get a grade bump at CGC.

If it makes the books look better, that's an added bonus, but it's not a deal-breaker.

 

Look, I'm not here to argue with Board members. I'm just saying I think this is terrible for the hobby. If you guys think this is fine and righteous and want to make fun of my comments, you win. I'm obviously in the minority here anyway as most of you seem to think this is all good.

 

I don't think you're in the minority.

[Bomber-Bob]

Depends on what one considers terrible, doesn't it?

Indeed.

Pressing is designed firstly and foremostly to get a grade bump at CGC.

If it makes the books look better, that's an added bonus, but it's not a deal-breaker.

 

Look, I'm not here to argue with Board members. I'm just saying I think this is terrible for the hobby. If you guys think this is fine and righteous and want to make fun of my comments, you win. I'm obviously in the minority here anyway as most of you seem to think this is all good.

 

i interpret this as: the intention was to get a grade bump. the books got a grade bump hence it wasn't terrible. of course the books look worse but the intent was achieved.

 

I hear you and I understand that, the mission was accomplished. No argument on that point. But is this acceptable ? Does the grade increase automatically justify the process (whatever it is). If the Boards don't speak out and demand an explanation I suspect we will see a lot more of this.

 

[Postal]

As pure as we would all like this to be, the all mighty dollars have spoken. Just like fraud in every other money making venture throughout history.

[jimbo_707]

Depends on what one considers terrible, doesn't it?

Indeed.

Pressing is designed firstly and foremostly to get a grade bump at CGC.

If it makes the books look better, that's an added bonus, but it's not a deal-breaker.

 

Look, I'm not here to argue with Board members. I'm just saying I think this is terrible for the hobby. If you guys think this is fine and righteous and want to make fun of my comments, you win. I'm obviously in the minority here anyway as most of you seem to think this is all good.

 

I hope you're not in the minority. This is destruction of gorgeous books and it infuriates me.

+1

[Bookery]

Rarely do I see a cover shrink. While I have not measured a cover to see if it shrinks, my guess would be that the pressing caused the interior pages to flatten and extend past the cover ever so slightly.

 

A true test would be to get a profile shot of the pages on the outside edge of the book and see if they have the traditional "V" shape to them.

 

Hardly a scientific study, but when this thread started I was curious if I could get pages to "squeeze out" as has been suggested. I took a cheap silver-age comic, applied a backer-board over it to even out pressure, and put my full weight into pressing down on the book as hard as I could. I could not get the interior pages to fan out at all... not the tiniest speck... even for the moments while I was actually pressing down, let alone permanently. The fan-out we're seeing here is, what... 1/16th of an inch?

 

[Bomber-Bob]

I now consider all books like these with the tell-tale RH pages extending beyond the cover at the bottom edge as having been deformed and are now undesirable.

 

I feel this way also. I will never purchase a book that has the right edge fanning. Now, more than ever, 'buy the book not the label' is the motto.

[DrWatson]

Depends on what one considers terrible, doesn't it?

Indeed.

Pressing is designed firstly and foremostly to get a grade bump at CGC.

If it makes the books look better, that's an added bonus, but it's not a deal-breaker.

 

Look, I'm not here to argue with Board members. I'm just saying I think this is terrible for the hobby. If you guys think this is fine and righteous and want to make fun of my comments, you win. I'm obviously in the minority here anyway as most of you seem to think this is all good.

 

i interpret this as: the intention was to get a grade bump. the books got a grade bump hence it wasn't terrible. of course the books look worse but the intent was achieved.

 

I hear you and I understand that, the mission was accomplished. No argument on that point. But is this acceptable ? Does the grade increase automatically justify the process (whatever it is). If the Boards don't speak out and demand an explanation I suspect we will see a lot more of this.

No, it isn't acceptable. I like pancakes. I do not like pancakes so thin that they could moonlight as communion wafers.

 

I like a nice, correctly pressed books. These books, while technically may be pressed correctly, pervert the true intent of having a book pressed. The idea behind pressing (to me) is to create a better looking book, bring it closer to the original condition and possibly achieve a higher grade from the CGC.

 

The main goal being increased eye appeal.

[Bookery]

No, it isn't acceptable. I like pancakes. I do not like pancakes so thin that they could moonlight as communion wafers.

 

Again... folks are presenting this as fact, but is it even physically possible?

With the "facejob" books of awhile back, all the evidence was present as to what was happening... clearly the spines were being rolled back to hide ticks, leaving a "shortened" cover on the right side.

 

This is not the case here. The spine seems unchanged. The right edge is untrimmed. If it was even possible, short of 100,000 lbs. of pressure, to squeeze out interior pages like that, how would it not also distort the cover... the chips and tears would be widened and largened... added surface material such as grease-pencil arrival marks, etc., should be crushed into the paper and possibly altered in shape. Moreover, how is it possible to crush and lengthen 16 sheets of interior paper, without having the same effect on the outer 1-page cover?

 

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

Depends on what one considers terrible, doesn't it?

Indeed.

Pressing is designed firstly and foremostly to get a grade bump at CGC.

If it makes the books look better, that's an added bonus, but it's not a deal-breaker.

 

Look, I'm not here to argue with Board members. I'm just saying I think this is terrible for the hobby. If you guys think this is fine and righteous and want to make fun of my comments, you win. I'm obviously in the minority here anyway as most of you seem to think this is all good.

 

You've got me all wrong.

 

I think it's appalling.

 

However, it's part of the game that we as consumers have allowed to become the norm.

 

My problem is that people seem horrified that Matt or CGC could be part of it, when they are the people who actually set the game in motion.

[Bomber-Bob]

Does anyone know Doug Schmell well enough to ask him ?

[Flaming_Telepath]

Does anyone know Doug Schmell well enough to ask him ?

 

Given Mr Schmell's long history of dishonesty - both within and without the hobby - I wouldn't trust any answer he gave anyway.

[DrWatson]

No, it isn't acceptable. I like pancakes. I do not like pancakes so thin that they could moonlight as communion wafers.

 

Again... folks are presenting this as fact, but is it even physically possible?

With the "facejob" books of awhile back, all the evidence was present as to what was happening... clearly the spines were being rolled back to hide ticks, leaving a "shortened" cover on the right side.

 

This is not the case here. The spine seems unchanged. The right edge is untrimmed. If it was even possible, short of 100,000 lbs. of pressure, to squeeze out interior pages like that, how would it not also distort the cover... the chips and tears would be widened and largened... added surface material such as grease-pencil arrival marks, etc., should be crushed into the paper and possibly altered in shape. Moreover, how is it possible to crush and lengthen 16 sheets of interior paper, without having the same effect on the outer 1-page cover?

The books have been pressed.

 

A dry mount press exerts far more PSI than you placing a book between two backing boards and squeezing it.

[Bomber-Bob]

Does anyone know Doug Schmell well enough to ask him ?

 

Given Mr Schmell's long history of dishonesty - both within and without the hobby - I wouldn't trust any answer he gave anyway.

 

Then does anyone know Paul Litch well enough to ask him ?

[Bookery]

A dry mount press exerts far more PSI than you placing a book between two backing boards and squeezing it.

 

Agreed. But unless someone is using a new heavy-PSI press than what we have seen before, why is this appearing now? Without going back to the thread beginning, I was under the impression these are recently-submitted books (post the face-job scandal).

 

What I am saying is everyone is going ballistic over fairly implausible scenarios.

 

I'm not doubting the books are pressed... nearly all expensive high-grade CGC books are pressed nowadays.

 

But there are an assortment of assumptions being made that all have to come together for this new conspiracy to work.

 

(a) Despite the danger of new "facejob" books creating exactly the kind of frenzy and dealer blow-back that is going on here, a dealer goes ahead, in this new environment, and does it anyway.

 

(b) Presumably the dealer is going through an established presser, but suddenly, for no apparent reason, said presser has forgotten how to do his job after many years, and is also using a new mega-pressure press to squeeze out (interior only, mind you) pages to extra lengths.

 

© CGC, after promising to check for bad pressing, nevertheless gives the go-ahead to all of its graders to upgrade said books anyway, even if it ends up creating a new scandal and putting them out of business.

 

OR--

 

Maybe pressing isn't the issue here.

Maybe the CGC graders graded the books accurately, as they were in front of them.

Maybe there's something else going on... post-grading.

 

[joeypost]

Rarely do I see a cover shrink. While I have not measured a cover to see if it shrinks, my guess would be that the pressing caused the interior pages to flatten and extend past the cover ever so slightly.

 

A true test would be to get a profile shot of the pages on the outside edge of the book and see if they have the traditional "V" shape to them.

 

Hardly a scientific study, but when this thread started I was curious if I could get pages to "squeeze out" as has been suggested. I took a cheap silver-age comic, applied a backer-board over it to even out pressure, and put my full weight into pressing down on the book as hard as I could. I could not get the interior pages to fan out at all... not the tiniest speck... even for the moments while I was actually pressing down, let alone permanently. The fan-out we're seeing here is, what... 1/16th of an inch?

 

Unless you were at an operating temperature of 180-200 degrees and a relative humidity of 80-90% it is not the same.