What if PGX was a threat?

[Tnerb]

Or Dies CGC even acknowledge competition?

 

I purchased one PGX book. This was a copy of New Mutants #5 in a 9.9 with white pages. I did this at the time since there were no available me 9.8 copies. It is also rumored to be the only book PGX graded the day Michael Jackson died. I also knew that once I sent it to CGC for them to grade, it would be a 9.8. I even cracked it again when I attempted to go after a full signature series line up of my favorite title. It stayed a 9.8. It took no longer than a month to get it graded, both times, one for the universal label, and the second time when a signature was added.

 

I thought about purchasing a few other PGX books to do the same thing, but never did. I would never send my books to PGX because I think they are more lenient than CGC. And I wonder, am I stricter than the premiere third party grading company? Many 9.8's I purchased, I felt were graded wrong. But what about the comic books I purchased off the shelf? Do I send them in if I feel they won't get the Mecca of grades? Of course if the grade means nothing (for example, my New Mutants #15 4.5 SS) I might send a bunch in.

 

I cracked a few of my CGC 9.8 copies of the New Mutants over the years. My New Mutants Annual #1 fell to a 9.6 (and rightfully so); so did my brother's copy. Recently another book of his fell. This one dropped two grades. Was it wrong the first time?

 

I had six of his books at ECCC for signatures, Steve Leialoha among them. He did not have his books fast tracked. I turned my own invoices over at the same time, one of which was fast tracked. This I got back in less than a month. 18 days from received to shipped safe.

 

What confused me however was the amount of time it took to get his invoice back so quickly. How did that happen? It was in his hands one week after I received my fast track invoice. The other invoices I turned over at the same convention, on the same day are still sitting at Received. This makes me beg to ask, how is this possible?

 

This doesn't include any invoices sent through CCS, which are currently at CGC as received. The only invoice further along the road to grading was turned over a week before when I was with my brother in Florida at Megacon. So, is first in not necessarily first out?

 

One of the biggest complaints about CGC that I've read about is the amount of time it takes to grade a book. I'm an advocate of getting the job done right, so the time in question is not as important to me as it is to others. But, if I'm told four weeks, I want it to be four weeks. If I'm waiting on a table and I tell them their meals will be out in a few minutes, they will be out in a few minutes, not an hour later.

 

I hear about such blatant disgruntlement here in the journals, and then again on other social media such as Facebook and Instagram. I always thought that it was a matter of time before PGX became a threat. PGX has proven me wrong, but wouldn't it be a weird turn of events if people started going to PGX with cracked CGC slabs? And what if we were seeing more and more PGX graded books at conventions? Could PGX flip the tables with the right business outlook? Don't get me wrong, I'll collect CGC for as long as I am financially able, but I would love a sense of order. You know, first in first out.

 

I remember reading about a time when DC never worried about Marvel, so I wonder will history ever repeat itself? Will CGC look forward like they never looked back?

 

Thanks for reading

 

Tnerb

 

 

Ps. One of the above mentioned invoices changed to verified as I was editing the journal.

 

See more journals by Tnerb

[Meeklo]

If anyone thinks that PGX is a threat, I'll just show them my Days of Future Past!

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7631546#Post7631546

[meshuggah]

In a lot of the CGC vs PGX threads such as the one Meeklo put up there are other things wrong with PGX. Such as their ethics. One of their graders would grade his own books then sell them on Ebay. There's been posts of people posting the opposite results of Meeklo also. Having their books drop a couple grades from PGX grades. There's days worth of reading on these threads. Also theres some threads on another start up grading company called Vault. You should look into them. They're mostly in the general forum.

 

But I wouldn't want to call them a threat. Competition breeds innovation. So maybe some actual competition for CGC would get them to change some of their practices for the better. Such as turn around times. But right now, PGX's reputation is for the most part and CGC is the best option.

[Brandon Shepherd]

Reading journals like this and posts like Meeklo's reinforce my hesitation with PGX. It has been several years since I last saw a PGX slab in person, I have read a few posts from others stating they thought the holder quality was better, and that's really the only good thing I have ever herd about them. My first and lasting impression so far was due to the PGX label, I do not think it looks professional. I feel the same way about their website. I concur with Meshuggah, CGC would need some actual competition.

[Lee K]

I've purchased some PGX books and even sent some books to PGX for grading. When I buy PGX, I do my best to ignore the grade on the top and actually look at the book - still I know it is a crapshoot roughly equivilent to buying a raw book. But sometimes that is just worth it for the money you save - particularly if a book is bronze/copper/modern and there isn't any real reason to fear restoration.

 

The books I sent off to PGX was to compare my grading with their grading with CGC grading. Generally, I thought that my low grade books were overgraded by PGX by about .5 and undergraded by CGC by 1.0 to .5 - as an example - I have a Brave & the Bold 28. I grade it as a solid 4.0, it is complete - it has no tears, it isn't loose or detached at the staples, neither cover nor CF, it is missing no pieces and it has no stains or writing. It is the very defination of 4.0 in my grading experience. I sent it to PGX and it came back a 4.5. I cracked it out and sent it off to CGC and it is a 3.0.

 

Mid grade books had no concensus by either PGX or CGC - both going up & down in grade after being cracked out of their PGX holders and sent to CGC. although I did find that PGX 8.5 and PGX 9.0 books were typically graded HIGHER by CGC when submitted - averaging a bump of a single grade.

 

High grade books were generally overgraded by PGX when compared to CGC. Personally, I think anything over a 9.6 is really a big, fat guess by any grader - coming down to 'I like this book' or 'I don't like this book' with 9.9s and 10s as pure hyperbole. (and I have submitted a CGC 9.9 myself - I still think it is a made-up grade).

 

I'll probably continue to buy PGX books - abeit rarely - for books that I want where the price is right.

 

Oh - and PGX slabs are seriously tougher than CGCs. But that is only part of what we are paying for, right?

 

Happy Hunting

And don't bid on those PGX books that I'm looking for, ok?

Lee K

[newdamagenyc]

Excellent post and it's something I've thought about over the last year or so.

 

I really wish PGX could develop into a serious competitor to CGC but right now it's just not the case. I just think the volume of comics they grade is too low. This causes a couple of things to happen:

 

1. Collectors don't see enough of their comics to get a good sense of their grading standards,

2. It breeds a certain amount of mistrust due to unfamiliarity.

 

I've never submitted books to PGX, but over the years I have resubmitted to CGC ~10 books that were originally graded by PGX. With the exception of one comic which dropped from a 9.8 to a 9.4 all of the other books either stayed the same grade after CGC's grading or bumped up one grade. A few went from a 9.6 to a 9.8.

 

It's not a huge sample size, but the results I've seen have lent some confidence to me that PGX does employ similar standards and levels of expertise compared to CGC.

 

However, the public perception of PGX is what it is, so I don't believe a PGX grade is worth the same amount in dollars as a CGC grade. I don't feel collectors trust their level of competency compared to CGC Some of the other posts in this thread show good examples of this in practice.

 

One thing I wish they would do is start their own registry. I think that would give collectors a better sense of what the PGX universe looked like and would give people a place to showcase their collections, much like CGC.

 

I hope they succeed because as meshuggah said, competition breeds innovation and high standards. If CGC has no competition, what's to keep their own standards from slipping?

[meshuggah]

Here's a link explaining some of the dubious things PGX employees do and why there reputation is really bad. With some other threads detailing their ethics.

 

http://www.justafanboy.com/PGX/

 

"People like me"? You mean "people" who are open minded and prefer an open market with fair competition? "People" who like to let the market decide? Aren't those kinds of "people" called "capitalists"?

 

-J.

 

"People like me" refers to people who are uninformed about the PGX shenanigans.

 

Also, there is no need to sign your post.

 

The extent of the vast majority of your data is comprised almost exclusively of hearsay, conjecture, supposition, and speculation. I have not seen any hard data that would stand up even in a civil court, let alone in a criminal prosecution. Maybe that's actually the reason they are still in business, and not because of "people like me". Food for thought.

 

 

I won't do your research for you. If you want to make the mistake of getting your books slabbed via PGX, go nuts.

 

If you do want to research PGX, simply do a Google search to find the hard data that would stand up in a civil court and perhaps in a criminal prosecution.

 

Also, there is no need to sign your post.

 

Right. And the "data" on the internet that has been cited here is the very data that I am referring to. Apparently the market in general believes they are a credible enough competitor to CGC, and thank goodness, since monopolies in any industry never turn out so well. And again, I have never subbed any books to PGX, the fact that you have apparently missed my statement to that fact in several prior posts suggests that your animosity to PGX is based more in emotion than an actual objective analysis.

 

-J.

 

And here's my sig again just for you:

 

Multiple examples of Ryan Elliott cracking out CGC books and then reslabbing them as PGX books with higher grades (and no mention of resto):

Another Great Reason to NEVER buy a PGX Book or deal with them

 

Thread about the CGC 8.5 Avengers #4 which then turned in obviously-trimmed PGX 9.6 book (with no mention of the trim job):

former 8.5 cgc Avengers 4 now 9.6 pgx

 

Here's the Cerebus #1 PGX 9.4 with undisclosed resto and where djbrady4u pretends he's not Ryan Elliott:

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=6795913#Post6795913

 

An article about fake Star Wars 35 cent variants in PGX holders:

http://bronzeagemarvelvariants.blogspot.com/2013/01/fake-star-wars-35-cent-price-variants.html

 

And a very long thread with yet even more examples of PGX's unethical business practices:

ANOTHER WARNING - djbrady4u is PGX's grader

 

But, let me guess, you're too "open minded" to care about the "data", right?

[newdamagenyc]

Wow, that's really a shame to see. The Cerberus thread seems particularly damning.

 

PGX with proper marketing and leadership could be a powerful force in the industry but as it is, it seems they're just a good grading shop with poor controls on employee oversight and poor restoration detection ability.

 

That could be solved by hiring the right President for the company, a competent Marketing individual or two and a few restoration detection experts. Unfortunately for them, that would take a significant amount of investment which it seems they are unwilling to do.

 

Shame (sorry, I know I'm repeating myself at this point) because the stuff I've had reslabbed by them shows that they are at least a good arbiter of unrestored high quality comics. Oh well.

[BlowUpTheMoon]

Wow, that's really a shame to see. The Cerberus thread seems particularly damning.

 

PGX with proper marketing and leadership could be a powerful force in the industry but as it is, it seems they're just a good grading shop with poor controls on employee oversight and poor restoration detection ability.

 

That could be solved by hiring the right President for the company, a competent Marketing individual or two and a few restoration detection experts. Unfortunately for them, that would take a significant amount of investment which it seems they are unwilling to do.

 

Shame (sorry, I know I'm repeating myself at this point) because the stuff I've had reslabbed by them shows that they are at least a good arbiter of unrestored high quality comics. Oh well.

 

PGX is basically a one man operation working out of a garage.

[SW3D]

Wow... Thanks for sharing the link... It restores my faith in humanity.

 

But seriously... that is the stuff of nightmares!

 

SW3D

[surfer99]

Tnerb, I don't know what you're talking about. It says right in the CGC "Scheduled For Grading" description...The boxes are dated, and arranged in the order received, so that they will be graded on a "first in-first out" basis by service type. So it MUST be true!

 

 

 

[Rockblazer]

I actually tried both CGC and PGX when I started collecting slabbed books. I wanted to see for myself which service was better. I won't bore you with all the details but will mention a few key items.

I sent in a Hulk 181 to PGX I picked up at a second hand store. I graded it 3.5 vg-. I wanted to sell it on Ebay as I was selling and buying at the time. I hoped that PGX might come back a 4.0. I had already figured out with some prior submissions that CGC was stricter in their grading. PGX also is faster so I could sell it quickly. When it came back I could'nt believe that well worn comic came back at 6.0 FINE.

Another PGX submission I put on their version of fast track. I waited and waited and waited until I called them because their fast track was twice as long as their regular service. The owner told me when I called it had JUST been graded that day( the date on the label was the day after I called). Imagine that. He said he would make it up to me and would give me a free submission on my next order. I did submit one more time but no credit was given when I was told it would be. I called about that and a woman said I would get the free submission next time for sure, but there was no next time for PGX.

Once I sent one Green Lantern 76 to CGC and one to PGX. I sent the higher grade book to CGC and the lower grade book to PGX. They both came back 5.5 Fine-. I sold both on EBAY. The CGC comic sold for $190. The PGX for $140. In a nutshell my opinion is PGX wins on speed and price. CGC wins on grading, resale value and customer service.