Action 1 in next Heritage sale with new CGC resto label

[nearmint]

I'm just basing my estimate on GPA. The Billy Wright 3.0 sold for 388K, and a 5.0 sold for 427K, so a 6.0 is bound to do significantly better.

[nearmint]

but I would never spend that money on that book, even if my net worth was well over a billion dollars. Why? Because I'd rather have Batman (TEC 27).

 

If I had a billion dollars, I would very happily buy both.

[jaybuck43]

I'm just basing my estimate on GPA. The Billy Wright 3.0 sold for 388K, and a 5.0 sold for 427K, so a 6.0 is bound to do significantly better.

 

You're right I missed that the 5.0 was sold in 2013, I thought it was 2003 sorry about that! Figured the 6.0 sale in 2009 was therefore a better barometer but was as usual in this field wrong I discounted the Billy Wright because it was the Billy Wright I think people will go massively over on pedigree keys.

[G.A.tor]

sub 450k is what the "last" 5.0 action 1 publicly sold for...a 6.0 would sell for 500K+...maybe as high as 750K...who knows...

 

a guy I sold a 4.5 too years ago has turned down 500K for his copy....

 

am I reading these notes properly....a 4x4" inches of color touch?..and that's just one ct notation...seems pretty extensive to me

[G.A.tor]

Im going to start with $125-$135k.

 

for an 8.0?

 

the CC 7.0 went for 170K

we will soon see if that was an outlier sale, or things to come....

[jaybuck43]

Gator, youre sort of misreading them. The 4x4 is UP TO. So its anything larger than 2X2 up to 4X4. So it could be say 2.5x 2.1 and still say 4x4. Yea the CT is pretty extensive on this, but not CGC's new definition of extensive (over 4x4 inch section.

[AnkurJ]

My price estimate might be low, but the number of people willing and able to spend 6 figures on these books is finite.

[Sqeggs]

The guy with the Batman avatar is proposing low estimates and the guy with the Superman avatar is proposing high estimates. Who'd a thunk it?

[G.A.tor]

Gator, youre sort of misreading them. The 4x4 is UP TO. So its anything larger than 2X2 up to 4X4. So it could be say 2.5x 2.1 and still say 4x4. Yea the CT is pretty extensive on this, but not CGC's new definition of extensive (over 4x4 inch section.

still....that could be upto 25% of the book's cover color touched...combine that with the rest of the notes, and this is a LOT of ct...I guess that's why its mod/ext (along with piece fill)...

 

I will be actively bidding on it for sure

[jaybuck43]

G.A.tor, I agree completely. Combined, more than half of the FC has been Color Touched (4x4 on the spine, 1x1 on the top and small areas on Right side) so somewhere between 3-5 in x 3-5 inches of CT on a 7 3/4 x 10 1/2 cover. Not to mention the piece fill and the CT on the interior. With that much work done, I am really surprised that someone said the owner had no idea that it was restored. I can understand missing cover being cleaned or a small amount of CT (we've all missed that) but this is significant CT. I wish you luck on your bidding. My money is earmarked elsewhere

[Wayne-Tec]

Ankur I'd go much higher than that. An EP 7 with married pages went for $120k in 2012, I can't imagine a "pure" MP/EP 8 going for only a few K more than that. My guess is $175,000 Btw, if anyone wants to see the graders notes on that book, CGC posted them:

 

I have a question for the big players on the boards though who would/could chase this book? If you have that kind of disposable capital lying around why not spend a bit more and go for a blue label. Yes I know a blue label 8 is about 1.5 million But a 6 can be had for 300k. I can understand for the "little guy" who goes after a Action 1 Purple label low grade because thats the most they can afford, but I just don't get high grade purples being big money books. The people that can buy them, could also buy the regular blue.

 

Good points although there are people who argue that the price gap between purple and blue may eventually narrow substantially.

 

People with "that kind of disposable capital" don't always buy things that are priced the highest just because they're priced the highest. In fact people with lots of money often pride themselves on spotting the difference in prices between two things that are essentially equal, and I think it makes a lot of sense that they would look at Action 1s priced six figures apart and then ask why the one is so much less just because it has a few drops of ink (especially when the other one is also allowed drops of ink if they're applied in a different way). That is not to say the higher cost book is priced too high but that the lower cost book is priced artificially low.

 

The kind of notes that CGC put on that certificate is a great step in the right direction. People who pay five or six figures for things need and deserve details like that.

 

 

I highly agree with you Bob, regarding the price-differential between comparable books, one with a few drops of CT. Obviously, the market has responded to the PLOD stigma, even in cases where one could argue that the noted restoration doesn't even fit the definition of what restoration is. Many collectors are highly susceptible to public opinion, to the point where their own spending habits help to reinforce the PLOD stigma, or lets say, help to establish an illogical differential in realized prices between comparable copies.

 

As time goes on, and the collecting community as a whole begins to think more logically in instances where stigmas disproportionately effect realized prices, I believe we'll see comparable books sell much closer to their un-stigmatized counterparts.

[Ze-man]

G.A.tor, I agree completely. Combined, more than half of the FC has been Color Touched (4x4 on the spine, 1x1 on the top and small areas on Right side) so somewhere between 3-5 in x 3-5 inches of CT on a 7 3/4 x 10 1/2 cover. Not to mention the piece fill and the CT on the interior. With that much work done, I am really surprised that someone said the owner had no idea that it was restored. I can understand missing cover being cleaned or a small amount of CT (we've all missed that) but this is significant CT. I wish you luck on your bidding. My money is earmarked elsewhere

 

Just to be clear, more then half the FC was not CT'ed. Being the one who did the work, I feel obligated to clear this up.

 

As you guys already mentioned, each notation states "up to" X amount per increment. And the A-4 listed for the spine CT... is for both FC and BC.

 

Wrap around spine and all that. Maybe the spine is an area that needs more detailed clarification in the grader notes.

 

So while Gators "up to" 25% of the entire cover was CT'ed is a bit high , it's not far off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bluechip]

Sorry for the confusing dupe posts but I found it impossible to quote zemans post without it appearing as if I'd written what he'd written so I deleted them.

 

[bluechip]

G.A.tor, I agree completely. Combined, more than half of the FC has been Color Touched (4x4 on the spine, 1x1 on the top and small areas on Right side) so somewhere between 3-5 in x 3-5 inches of CT on a 7 3/4 x 10 1/2 cover. Not to mention the piece fill and the CT on the interior. With that much work done, I am really surprised that someone said the owner had no idea that it was restored. I can understand missing cover being cleaned or a small amount of CT (we've all missed that) but this is significant CT. I wish you luck on your bidding. My money is earmarked elsewhere

 

Just to be clear, more then half the FC was not CT'ed. Being the one who did the work, I feel obligated to clear this up.

 

As you guys already mentioned, each notation states "up to" X amount per increment. And the A-4 listed for the spine CT... is for both FC and BC.

 

Wrap around spine and all that. Maybe the spine is an area that needs more detailed clarification in the grader notes.

 

So while Gators "up to" 25% of the entire cover was CT'ed is a bit high , it's not far off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bluechip]

dupe post deleted

[bluechip]

G.A.tor, I agree completely. Combined, more than half of the FC has been Color Touched (4x4 on the spine, 1x1 on the top and small areas on Right side) so somewhere between 3-5 in x 3-5 inches of CT on a 7 3/4 x 10 1/2 cover. Not to mention the piece fill and the CT on the interior. With that much work done, I am really surprised that someone said the owner had no idea that it was restored. I can understand missing cover being cleaned or a small amount of CT (we've all missed that) but this is significant CT. I wish you luck on your bidding. My money is earmarked elsewhere

 

Just to be clear, more then half the FC was not CT'ed. Being the one who did the work, I feel obligated to clear this up.

 

As you guys already mentioned, each notation states "up to" X amount per increment. And the A-4 listed for the spine CT... is for both FC and BC.

 

Wrap around spine and all that. Maybe the spine is an area that needs more detailed clarification in the grader notes.

 

So while Gators "up to" 25% of the entire cover was CT'ed is a bit high , it's not far off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you have pics of it before color touch that would be great. Ideally that's how restored books would be presented, with before and after pics.

 

I tried doing that years ago to demonstrate how little had been done but the fact that little work was done seemed to upset the fundamentalists even more, because they felt even a drop of purposeful ink destroyed a book as much as repainting half the art so it upset them even more that someone would destroy a book just to put a tiny bit of color touch. If it's not clear by the narrative, I was very surprised by that reaction. It was the opposite of what I expected, especially since the prevailing view at the time was to restore books as much as possible, and I thought the before and after pics played more to the purists than it did to the conventional wisdom of the time.

 

I still have copies of the before and afters of a couple keys that I think would highly benefit whomever their current owners are now that CGC does quantify the amount of resto. But I have no idea who owns them now.

[Jaydogrules]

Ankur I'd go much higher than that. An EP 7 with married pages went for $120k in 2012, I can't imagine a "pure" MP/EP 8 going for only a few K more than that. My guess is $175,000 Btw, if anyone wants to see the graders notes on that book, CGC posted them:

 

I have a question for the big players on the boards though who would/could chase this book? If you have that kind of disposable capital lying around why not spend a bit more and go for a blue label. Yes I know a blue label 8 is about 1.5 million But a 6 can be had for 300k. I can understand for the "little guy" who goes after a Action 1 Purple label low grade because thats the most they can afford, but I just don't get high grade purples being big money books. The people that can buy them, could also buy the regular blue.

 

Good points although there are people who argue that the price gap between purple and blue may eventually narrow substantially.

 

People with "that kind of disposable capital" don't always buy things that are priced the highest just because they're priced the highest. In fact people with lots of money often pride themselves on spotting the difference in prices between two things that are essentially equal, and I think it makes a lot of sense that they would look at Action 1s priced six figures apart and then ask why the one is so much less just because it has a few drops of ink (especially when the other one is also allowed drops of ink if they're applied in a different way). That is not to say the higher cost book is priced too high but that the lower cost book is priced artificially low.

 

The kind of notes that CGC put on that certificate is a great step in the right direction. People who pay five or six figures for things need and deserve details like that.

 

 

I highly agree with you Bob, regarding the price-differential between comparable books, one with a few drops of CT. Obviously, the market has responded to the PLOD stigma, even in cases where one could argue that the noted restoration doesn't even fit the definition of what restoration is. Many collectors are highly susceptible to public opinion, to the point where their own spending habits help to reinforce the PLOD stigma, or lets say, help to establish an illogical differential in realized prices between comparable copies.

 

As time goes on, and the collecting community as a whole begins to think more logically in instances where stigmas disproportionately effect realized prices, I believe we'll see comparable books sell much closer to their un-stigmatized counterparts.

 

I don't believe the "stigma" on restored books will ever go away. At the end of the day these books, as good as they may look, are not an original, well preserved product, and therefore should have a sizable discount. This is not necessarily a bad thing as it makes these copies more accessible to a greater pool of buyers.

 

-J.

[VintageComics]

Instead of there being a stigma, there will be a better understanding of what restored books are and a better spacing of pricing between work done and what a book should be valued it.

 

The hobby is growing up rather than shunning books with repairs.

[Wayne-Tec]

I don't believe the "stigma" on restored books will ever go away. At the end of the day these books, as good as they may look, are not an original, well preserved product, and therefore should have a sizable discount. This is not necessarily a bad thing as it makes these copies more accessible to a greater pool of buyers.

 

-J.

 

"Sizable" is relative. A book with a few dots of CT is 99% original. I'm not suggesting that it should command 99% of the value of its unrestored counterpart, but it's illogical to subtract 30%, 40%, etc. as a result of the 1% of the book that is restored.

 

When we reach that point, the collecting community is being effected more negatively by "stigma" than it is positively by the love for the books. For instance: if you have two GA books, both CGC 5.0's, one blue label, another purple label with a few dots of CT. The blue label is priced at $5,000 and the purple counterpart is priced at $3,500 -- a collector who opts for the blue label for 5K is saying that 30% of the value exists within the few dots of CT. They paid $1,500 to be without those dots.

 

I believe that one of the biggest reasons buyers pay accordingly is out of the fear of that PLOD stigma. They feel, and are at present -- often times correct, that the 5K blue label book is the better investment. Stigma-effected FMV prices exist, in many cases, not from an overwhelming dissatisfaction that comes from the 1% of the book that is unoriginal, but from the fear that such books are less desirable by "x-amount."

 

Of course, extensively restored books are an entirely different story -- if you're having half of a front cover replaced and a plethora of unoriginal parts added to the books. But sloppy trimming that does not improve the condition of the book and amateur CT that makes a cover look a little sloppy does not fall into that stratosphere.

 

Like Bob said before, I do not feel that blue label books are over-valued. But in many instances, it's completely illogical for a book to lose 30-40% of it's value as a result of the 1% of the book that was restored -- often times, not even improving the condition or appearance of the book and in many cases -- not even matching Merriam-Webster's definition of what "restoration" even is.

 

As the hobby matures and puts such things into perspective, I'm not sure how "sizable" the discounts will continue to be for books that fall into that aforementioned category.

[jaybuck43]

G.A.tor, I agree completely. Combined, more than half of the FC has been Color Touched (4x4 on the spine, 1x1 on the top and small areas on Right side) so somewhere between 3-5 in x 3-5 inches of CT on a 7 3/4 x 10 1/2 cover. Not to mention the piece fill and the CT on the interior. With that much work done, I am really surprised that someone said the owner had no idea that it was restored. I can understand missing cover being cleaned or a small amount of CT (we've all missed that) but this is significant CT. I wish you luck on your bidding. My money is earmarked elsewhere

 

Just to be clear, more then half the FC was not CT'ed. Being the one who did the work, I feel obligated to clear this up.

 

As you guys already mentioned, each notation states "up to" X amount per increment. And the A-4 listed for the spine CT... is for both FC and BC.

 

Wrap around spine and all that. Maybe the spine is an area that needs more detailed clarification in the grader notes.

 

So while Gators "up to" 25% of the entire cover was CT'ed is a bit high , it's not far off.

Hey Zeman. That must have been nerve racking to work on an Action 1! I must say you do fantastic work sir. When I did my calculations I applied spine entirely to the FC, which I shouldn't have done, split it basically in half. At that point its much less. But it is still a large amount of the cover has been Color Touched. Again, fantastic job!