Action 1 in next Heritage sale with new CGC resto label

[rjpb]

The higher the price tag, the more of an investment a comic purchase is seen to be, regardless of what most buyers may claim, and when making a large purchase, buyers want assurances they are making a smart choice. Certification, label color, pedigree, source, will all play into the relative price of a book.

 

Valuing the impact of restoration has always been difficult, given the wide variety and complex attitudes to various types and degrees of restoration, and it's understandable that many buyers would rather not have to consider the variables and stick with unrestored.

 

Figuring out how much exactly any given restoration impacts the FMV is further complicated by price volatility in unrestored copies of many books, which in turn is impacted by attitudes towards the eye-appeal and accuracy of the assigned grade.

 

Even without general movement in marketplace for a particular book, it's not unusual for the exact same graded unrestored copy of a book to sell for x and 1.5 x within a few months, sometimes going up, sometimes going down.

 

If a slightly restored copy in the same grade sells in the same period for 90% of x, did it sell at a 10% discount or a 40% discount?

[lou_fine]

I believe that there are good arguments to both sides.

 

CGC's new label system does give us more details, even if they be at the cost of making the system more complicated. Purple labels are convenient in respects to quickly allowing collectors to have a "rough idea" of what they're looking at (universal vs. restored), but obviously, the purple label has brought with it a stigma that often effects the values of books to a disproportionate-to-logic extent.

 

As I've said in previous posts, the distribution of prices realized between universal (100% original books) and slightly restored (99% original books) is often extremely illogical and has to-date, been maintained by negative, stigma-induced overreactions that has materialized by seeing books lose 30-40-50% of their value because of dots of ink or scissors that graced a cover's edge.

 

I refer back to the automobile analogy mentioned earlier. If two $150,000 cars are offered for sale, but one had a scratch covered up with unoriginal paint -- it would be illogical to then offer the buyer a $40,000-$65,000 discount (30-40% off "unrestored" FMV) for a car that is 99% original.

 

Could you imagine the buyer of the 40% marked-down car being jeered, and mocked as fool for not paying $65,000 extra to be without that covered up scratch? Such minor work should entitle a buyer to more than a 1% discount (even if the item is indeed 99% original), but not to an extent in which the item (car, comic book, etc.) loses nearly half of its entire value.

 

I just don't see educated investors of four-figure, five-figure, six-figure and seven-figure books subscribing to such philosophies in the long-run. When stigma-induced phobias are born from such a flawed application of logic, they are, IMO, not entrenched to withstand the long haul.

 

History has so far clearly shown us that you are dead wrong in terms of the bolded portion of your comments above.

 

Fifteen years of CGC grading has shown us that the marketplace continues to live in total and absolute fear of the PLOD, even though logic dictates that this should not be the case. And I don't see nothing at all on the horizon that will change this line of thinking going forward.

 

A classic example of this would be the Church copies of More Fun 52 and Adventure 40 from way back when CGC first started. Both were major key DC books with the same types of restoration activities done to them. The only difference being that the Adventure 40 fell on the wrong side of the line with small amounts of restoration identified and was flagged with a purple label. Borock's former copy of More Fun 52 fell on the right side of the line with only minor amounts of restoration identified and was rewarded with a blue label.

 

Logic would dictate that the difference in price for these 2 pedigree books should not really be that significant at all. And yet while the More Fun 52 was able to sell at a significant premium to guide without any problems at all, the Adventure 40 on the other hand, took several auctions before finding a buyer and then only at a substantial discount to guide. Needless to say, the real overriding difference between these 2 Church books really came down to nothing more than the colour of the labels.

 

Fast forward to today and we continue to hear horror stories whereby gorgeous restored books are being destroyed by having certain parts hacked away just so they can obtain the blue label, albeit it at a much lower technical grade. Totally illogical from a collector's point of view, but totally logical if money is the bottom-line.

 

I can only speak for myself when I say my personal aversion to buying restored books has nothing to do with a lack of understanding of restoration itself. I just will never buy a book that's been messed with in any way like that. Even if it "looks" better because of it. The color coding of the labels is critical because it lets the prospective buyer know that they're getting a restored book without having to scrutinize the label or pull grader notes. This is not a bad thing at all. Restoration disclosure has historically been a problem in this hobby because dealers and sellers have always known that a very large chunk of the buying public either do not want a restored book or will pay a lot less for one. This is nothing new. The reason restored books will always go for a lot less than unrestored books is because there is a much smaller buying pool for restored books. And again, I'm not really sure why this is a problem as it allows a much lower entry point to own certain books.

 

-J.

 

 

 

what about the significant amount of slight PLODs that in recent years have returned to blue holders (due to reversal; chopping off CT'ed parts; scraping spines, etc.). DANG, the gospel of blue has a snake in its paradise right there ...

 

This is the other question that I was planning to bring up about the new restoration rating system.

 

Will blue labelled books such as Borock's former Church copy of More Fun 52 continue to retain their cherished blue labels (with notes) under the new system or will they be shifted over to the new dreaded purple labels with a rating of something like A1?

 

If the latter is the case, my bet is that all current blue slabbed books with minor restoration notes on their labels will never ever see the inside of a CGC grading office again.

 

And this will have absolutely nothing to do with the notes and everything to do with the colour of the CGC label.

[Sqeggs]

I believe that there are good arguments to both sides.

 

CGC's new label system does give us more details, even if they be at the cost of making the system more complicated. Purple labels are convenient in respects to quickly allowing collectors to have a "rough idea" of what they're looking at (universal vs. restored), but obviously, the purple label has brought with it a stigma that often effects the values of books to a disproportionate-to-logic extent.

 

As I've said in previous posts, the distribution of prices realized between universal (100% original books) and slightly restored (99% original books) is often extremely illogical and has to-date, been maintained by negative, stigma-induced overreactions that has materialized by seeing books lose 30-40-50% of their value because of dots of ink or scissors that graced a cover's edge.

 

I refer back to the automobile analogy mentioned earlier. If two $150,000 cars are offered for sale, but one had a scratch covered up with unoriginal paint -- it would be illogical to then offer the buyer a $40,000-$65,000 discount (30-40% off "unrestored" FMV) for a car that is 99% original.

 

Could you imagine the buyer of the 40% marked-down car being jeered, and mocked as fool for not paying $65,000 extra to be without that covered up scratch? Such minor work should entitle a buyer to more than a 1% discount (even if the item is indeed 99% original), but not to an extent in which the item (car, comic book, etc.) loses nearly half of its entire value.

 

I just don't see educated investors of four-figure, five-figure, six-figure and seven-figure books subscribing to such philosophies in the long-run. When stigma-induced phobias are born from such a flawed application of logic, they are, IMO, not entrenched to withstand the long haul.

 

History has so far clearly shown us that you are dead wrong in terms of the bolded portion of your comments above.

 

Fifteen years of CGC grading has shown us that the marketplace continues to live in total and absolute fear of the PLOD, even though logic dictates that this should not be the case. And I don't see nothing at all on the horizon that will change this line of thinking going forward.

 

A classic example of this would be the Church copies of More Fun 52 and Adventure 40 from way back when CGC first started. Both were major key DC books with the same types of restoration activities done to them. The only difference being that the Adventure 40 fell on the wrong side of the line with small amounts of restoration identified and was flagged with a purple label. Borock's former copy of More Fun 52 fell on the right side of the line with only minor amounts of restoration identified and was rewarded with a blue label.

 

Logic would dictate that the difference in price for these 2 pedigree books should not really be that significant at all. And yet while the More Fun 52 was able to sell at a significant premium to guide without any problems at all, the Adventure 40 on the other hand, took several auctions before finding a buyer and then only at a substantial discount to guide. Needless to say, the real overriding difference between these 2 Church books really came down to nothing more than the colour of the labels.

 

Fast forward to today and we continue to hear horror stories whereby gorgeous restored books are being destroyed by having certain parts hacked away just so they can obtain the blue label, albeit it at a much lower technical grade. Totally illogical from a collector's point of view, but totally logical if money is the bottom-line.

 

I can only speak for myself when I say my personal aversion to buying restored books has nothing to do with a lack of understanding of restoration itself. I just will never buy a book that's been messed with in any way like that. Even if it "looks" better because of it. The color coding of the labels is critical because it lets the prospective buyer know that they're getting a restored book without having to scrutinize the label or pull grader notes. This is not a bad thing at all. Restoration disclosure has historically been a problem in this hobby because dealers and sellers have always known that a very large chunk of the buying public either do not want a restored book or will pay a lot less for one. This is nothing new. The reason restored books will always go for a lot less than unrestored books is because there is a much smaller buying pool for restored books. And again, I'm not really sure why this is a problem as it allows a much lower entry point to own certain books.

 

-J.

 

 

 

what about the significant amount of slight PLODs that in recent years have returned to blue holders (due to reversal; chopping off CT'ed parts; scraping spines, etc.). DANG, the gospel of blue has a snake in its paradise right there ...

 

This is the other question that I was planning to bring up about the new restoration rating system.

 

Will blue labelled books such as Borock's former Church copy of More Fun 52 continue to retain their cherished blue labels (with notes) under the new system or will they be shifted over to the new dreaded purple labels with a rating of something like A1?

 

If the latter is the case, my bet is that all current blue slabbed books with minor restoration notes on their labels will never ever see the inside of a CGC grading office again.

 

And this will have absolutely nothing to do with the notes and everything to do with the colour of the CGC label.

 

I would be astonished if this happened. Once the decision was made to give these types of books blue labels, there was no going back, imho.

[G.A.tor]

Fifteen years of CGC grading has shown us that the marketplace continues to live in total and absolute fear of the PLOD, even though logic dictates that this should not be the case. And I don't see nothing at all on the horizon that will change this line of thinking going forward.

 

I echo that same concern, though I'm a bit more optimistic perhaps.

 

When an ideal is entrenched in nonsensical phobias, you have to believe that either:

 

A) Such phobias, however nonsensical, will continue to thrive. Or...

 

B) Greater understanding and an evolution in common sense will take over.

 

I opt for the latter. You're absolutely right that after 15 years, the hobby still lags behind in that common sense department, but like many other things in history, sometimes it takes longer than it should for greater sense to take over.

 

It's not just 15 years. It's 40+. Restored books have always sold at a discounted rate to unrestored. True, the percentages got worse with cgc, but if the hobby hasn't adopted (as a whole) then I'm not sure it ever will (as a whole). Sure some segments might finally make the connection but I wouldn't hold your breath

[lou_fine]

I believe that there are good arguments to both sides.

 

CGC's new label system does give us more details, even if they be at the cost of making the system more complicated. Purple labels are convenient in respects to quickly allowing collectors to have a "rough idea" of what they're looking at (universal vs. restored), but obviously, the purple label has brought with it a stigma that often effects the values of books to a disproportionate-to-logic extent.

 

As I've said in previous posts, the distribution of prices realized between universal (100% original books) and slightly restored (99% original books) is often extremely illogical and has to-date, been maintained by negative, stigma-induced overreactions that has materialized by seeing books lose 30-40-50% of their value because of dots of ink or scissors that graced a cover's edge.

 

I refer back to the automobile analogy mentioned earlier. If two $150,000 cars are offered for sale, but one had a scratch covered up with unoriginal paint -- it would be illogical to then offer the buyer a $40,000-$65,000 discount (30-40% off "unrestored" FMV) for a car that is 99% original.

 

Could you imagine the buyer of the 40% marked-down car being jeered, and mocked as fool for not paying $65,000 extra to be without that covered up scratch? Such minor work should entitle a buyer to more than a 1% discount (even if the item is indeed 99% original), but not to an extent in which the item (car, comic book, etc.) loses nearly half of its entire value.

 

I just don't see educated investors of four-figure, five-figure, six-figure and seven-figure books subscribing to such philosophies in the long-run. When stigma-induced phobias are born from such a flawed application of logic, they are, IMO, not entrenched to withstand the long haul.

 

History has so far clearly shown us that you are dead wrong in terms of the bolded portion of your comments above.

 

Fifteen years of CGC grading has shown us that the marketplace continues to live in total and absolute fear of the PLOD, even though logic dictates that this should not be the case. And I don't see nothing at all on the horizon that will change this line of thinking going forward.

 

A classic example of this would be the Church copies of More Fun 52 and Adventure 40 from way back when CGC first started. Both were major key DC books with the same types of restoration activities done to them. The only difference being that the Adventure 40 fell on the wrong side of the line with small amounts of restoration identified and was flagged with a purple label. Borock's former copy of More Fun 52 fell on the right side of the line with only minor amounts of restoration identified and was rewarded with a blue label.

 

Logic would dictate that the difference in price for these 2 pedigree books should not really be that significant at all. And yet while the More Fun 52 was able to sell at a significant premium to guide without any problems at all, the Adventure 40 on the other hand, took several auctions before finding a buyer and then only at a substantial discount to guide. Needless to say, the real overriding difference between these 2 Church books really came down to nothing more than the colour of the labels.

 

Fast forward to today and we continue to hear horror stories whereby gorgeous restored books are being destroyed by having certain parts hacked away just so they can obtain the blue label, albeit it at a much lower technical grade. Totally illogical from a collector's point of view, but totally logical if money is the bottom-line.

 

I can only speak for myself when I say my personal aversion to buying restored books has nothing to do with a lack of understanding of restoration itself. I just will never buy a book that's been messed with in any way like that. Even if it "looks" better because of it. The color coding of the labels is critical because it lets the prospective buyer know that they're getting a restored book without having to scrutinize the label or pull grader notes. This is not a bad thing at all. Restoration disclosure has historically been a problem in this hobby because dealers and sellers have always known that a very large chunk of the buying public either do not want a restored book or will pay a lot less for one. This is nothing new. The reason restored books will always go for a lot less than unrestored books is because there is a much smaller buying pool for restored books. And again, I'm not really sure why this is a problem as it allows a much lower entry point to own certain books.

 

-J.

 

 

 

what about the significant amount of slight PLODs that in recent years have returned to blue holders (due to reversal; chopping off CT'ed parts; scraping spines, etc.). DANG, the gospel of blue has a snake in its paradise right there ...

 

This is the other question that I was planning to bring up about the new restoration rating system.

 

Will blue labelled books such as Borock's former Church copy of More Fun 52 continue to retain their cherished blue labels (with notes) under the new system or will they be shifted over to the new dreaded purple labels with a rating of something like A1?

 

If the latter is the case, my bet is that all current blue slabbed books with minor restoration notes on their labels will never ever see the inside of a CGC grading office again.

 

And this will have absolutely nothing to do with the notes and everything to do with the colour of the CGC label.

 

I would be astonished if this happened. Once the decision was made to give these types of books blue labels, there was no going back, imho.

 

And is this not something that we should know instead of trying to guess at what their policy is?

 

Actually, with a new and more formal detailed restoration rating system in place that looks at the actual extent of the restoration activity that took place on a book, would logic not dictate that these once blue labelled books should actually be considered as restored books, albeit to only a very slight extent?

 

If not, then what is the point of implementing a more formal and measured restoration rating system that ignores these activities for a particular segment of the comic book population.

[Marvel Zombie]

I believe that there are good arguments to both sides.

 

CGC's new label system does give us more details, even if they be at the cost of making the system more complicated. Purple labels are convenient in respects to quickly allowing collectors to have a "rough idea" of what they're looking at (universal vs. restored), but obviously, the purple label has brought with it a stigma that often effects the values of books to a disproportionate-to-logic extent.

 

As I've said in previous posts, the distribution of prices realized between universal (100% original books) and slightly restored (99% original books) is often extremely illogical and has to-date, been maintained by negative, stigma-induced overreactions that has materialized by seeing books lose 30-40-50% of their value because of dots of ink or scissors that graced a cover's edge.

 

I refer back to the automobile analogy mentioned earlier. If two $150,000 cars are offered for sale, but one had a scratch covered up with unoriginal paint -- it would be illogical to then offer the buyer a $40,000-$65,000 discount (30-40% off "unrestored" FMV) for a car that is 99% original.

 

Could you imagine the buyer of the 40% marked-down car being jeered, and mocked as fool for not paying $65,000 extra to be without that covered up scratch? Such minor work should entitle a buyer to more than a 1% discount (even if the item is indeed 99% original), but not to an extent in which the item (car, comic book, etc.) loses nearly half of its entire value.

 

I just don't see educated investors of four-figure, five-figure, six-figure and seven-figure books subscribing to such philosophies in the long-run. When stigma-induced phobias are born from such a flawed application of logic, they are, IMO, not entrenched to withstand the long haul.

 

History has so far clearly shown us that you are dead wrong in terms of the bolded portion of your comments above.

 

Fifteen years of CGC grading has shown us that the marketplace continues to live in total and absolute fear of the PLOD, even though logic dictates that this should not be the case. And I don't see nothing at all on the horizon that will change this line of thinking going forward.

 

A classic example of this would be the Church copies of More Fun 52 and Adventure 40 from way back when CGC first started. Both were major key DC books with the same types of restoration activities done to them. The only difference being that the Adventure 40 fell on the wrong side of the line with small amounts of restoration identified and was flagged with a purple label. Borock's former copy of More Fun 52 fell on the right side of the line with only minor amounts of restoration identified and was rewarded with a blue label.

 

Logic would dictate that the difference in price for these 2 pedigree books should not really be that significant at all. And yet while the More Fun 52 was able to sell at a significant premium to guide without any problems at all, the Adventure 40 on the other hand, took several auctions before finding a buyer and then only at a substantial discount to guide. Needless to say, the real overriding difference between these 2 Church books really came down to nothing more than the colour of the labels.

 

Fast forward to today and we continue to hear horror stories whereby gorgeous restored books are being destroyed by having certain parts hacked away just so they can obtain the blue label, albeit it at a much lower technical grade. Totally illogical from a collector's point of view, but totally logical if money is the bottom-line.

 

I can only speak for myself when I say my personal aversion to buying restored books has nothing to do with a lack of understanding of restoration itself. I just will never buy a book that's been messed with in any way like that. Even if it "looks" better because of it. The color coding of the labels is critical because it lets the prospective buyer know that they're getting a restored book without having to scrutinize the label or pull grader notes. This is not a bad thing at all. Restoration disclosure has historically been a problem in this hobby because dealers and sellers have always known that a very large chunk of the buying public either do not want a restored book or will pay a lot less for one. This is nothing new. The reason restored books will always go for a lot less than unrestored books is because there is a much smaller buying pool for restored books. And again, I'm not really sure why this is a problem as it allows a much lower entry point to own certain books.

 

-J.

 

 

 

what about the significant amount of slight PLODs that in recent years have returned to blue holders (due to reversal; chopping off CT'ed parts; scraping spines, etc.). DANG, the gospel of blue has a snake in its paradise right there ...

 

This is the other question that I was planning to bring up about the new restoration rating system.

 

Will blue labelled books such as Borock's former Church copy of More Fun 52 continue to retain their cherished blue labels (with notes) under the new system or will they be shifted over to the new dreaded purple labels with a rating of something like A1?

 

If the latter is the case, my bet is that all current blue slabbed books with minor restoration notes on their labels will never ever see the inside of a CGC grading office again.

 

And this will have absolutely nothing to do with the notes and everything to do with the colour of the CGC label.

 

I would be astonished if this happened. Once the decision was made to give these types of books blue labels, there was no going back, imho.

 

And is this not something that we should know instead of trying to guess at what their policy is?

 

Actually, with a new and more formal detailed restoration rating system in place that looks at the actual extent of the restoration activity that took place on a book, would logic not dictate that these once blue labelled books should actually be considered as restored books, albeit to only a very slight extent?

 

If not, then what is the point of implementing a more formal and measured restoration rating system that ignores these activities for a particular segment of the comic book population.

 

what he said ...

[lou_fine]

Fifteen years of CGC grading has shown us that the marketplace continues to live in total and absolute fear of the PLOD, even though logic dictates that this should not be the case. And I don't see nothing at all on the horizon that will change this line of thinking going forward.

 

I echo that same concern, though I'm a bit more optimistic perhaps.

 

When an ideal is entrenched in nonsensical phobias, you have to believe that either:

 

A) Such phobias, however nonsensical, will continue to thrive. Or...

 

B) Greater understanding and an evolution in common sense will take over.

 

I opt for the latter. You're absolutely right that after 15 years, the hobby still lags behind in that common sense department, but like many other things in history, sometimes it takes longer than it should for greater sense to take over.

 

It's not just 15 years. It's 40+. Restored books have always sold at a discounted rate to unrestored. True, the percentages got worse with cgc, but if the hobby hasn't adopted (as a whole) then I'm not sure it ever will (as a whole). Sure some segments might finally make the connection but I wouldn't hold your breath

 

Hey Gator;

 

The 15 years which I was referring to was with respect to the CGC time period only.

 

Either way, not exactly correct as I believe it has only been for the last 30 years or so for comics on the whole.

 

Have you forgotten about the time period in the 70's and possibly even into the early 80's when restoration was seen as a positive activity which actually increased the value of the books in relationship to their previous unrestored state. Even to the point that Overstreet had an entire section in their price guide which attempted to come up with mathematical calculations and graphical charts to determine the increased value derived from various restoration activities.

 

Much like how undisclosed and sanctioned pressing is being used to artificially increase the value of books in today's marketplace. I wonder what will happen to the value of these books 20 or 30 years from now if their is another grading company in place and pressing and some of these other sanctioned manipulated activities which are taking place nowadays are no longer viewed with the same blue light of approval.

[bluechip]

Fifteen years of CGC grading has shown us that the marketplace continues to live in total and absolute fear of the PLOD, even though logic dictates that this should not be the case. And I don't see nothing at all on the horizon that will change this line of thinking going forward.

 

I echo that same concern, though I'm a bit more optimistic perhaps.

 

When an ideal is entrenched in nonsensical phobias, you have to believe that either:

 

A) Such phobias, however nonsensical, will continue to thrive. Or...

 

B) Greater understanding and an evolution in common sense will take over.

 

I opt for the latter. You're absolutely right that after 15 years, the hobby still lags behind in that common sense department, but like many other things in history, sometimes it takes longer than it should for greater sense to take over.

 

It's not just 15 years. It's 40+. Restored books have always sold at a discounted rate to unrestored. True, the percentages got worse with cgc, but if the hobby hasn't adopted (as a whole) then I'm not sure it ever will (as a whole). Sure some segments might finally make the connection but I wouldn't hold your breath

 

Hey Gator;

 

The 15 years which I was referring to was with respect to the CGC time period.

 

Either way, not exactly correct as I believe it has only been for the last 30 years or so for comics on the whole.

 

Have you forgotten about the time period in the 70's and possibly even into the early 80's when restoration was seen as a positive activity which actually increased the value of the books in relationship to their previous unrestored state. Even to the point that Overstreet had an entire section in their price guide which attempted to come up with a mathematical calculation and graphical charts to determine the increased value derived from various restoration activities.

 

Much like how undisclosed and sanctioned pressing is being used to artificially increase the value of books in today's marketplace. I wonder what will happen to the value of these books 20 or 30 years from now if their is another grading company in place and pressing and some of these other sanctioned manipulated activities which are taking place nowadays are no longer viewed with the same blue light of approval.

 

There was a time when I was buying key books and lower grade books were priced above guide because it was presumed anybody would restore them and they would then be worth more.

 

Since Overstreet did not reflect the higher prices being charged in low grade, anybody who bought a low grade book would lose money if they resold it without restoring. I bought a key which I did not want to restore but I was told when I bought it (by just about everybody) that I should do it or I'd leave money on the table, and also that I better get it restored right away before prices for doing the work increased. Even the Overstreet guide said, with zero ambiguity, that people should get such books restored.

 

I had a choice between two keys -- one had a chunk out of the cover. The other had a split spine at the bottom.

 

I bought the one that had no chunk out. I was immediately told by all that I consulted that I had paid the "restored" VF value for the book, and that if I tried to sell it I would have to sell it for the unrestored Good+ price, which was less. That meant, I was told, that I could only make the book worth as much as I paid if I actually had the restoration done. So I had it done with strict instructions to do as little as possible.

 

Cut to years later when going to sell and I am told the copy with the chunk missing was worth more. And that I could literally get more for my book if I took a chunk of similar size out of the place that had been restored (aka "defiled"). Not able to bring myself to REMOVE A PIECE OF THE BOOK TO "UNRESTORE" it, I allowed it to sell for much much less than other book with the chunk out.

 

The person who bought my slightly restored book had additional work done to make a higher grade and sold it for much more.

 

Things like that are a sign that 1) attitudes today cannot be relied on to remain the same tomorrow and 2) attitudes against restoration have gotten to the point where the willful destruction of a book makes it "worth" more.

 

[Cat-Man_America]

I believe that there are good arguments to both sides.

 

CGC's new label system does give us more details, even if they be at the cost of making the system more complicated. Purple labels are convenient in respects to quickly allowing collectors to have a "rough idea" of what they're looking at (universal vs. restored), but obviously, the purple label has brought with it a stigma that often effects the values of books to a disproportionate-to-logic extent.

 

As I've said in previous posts, the distribution of prices realized between universal (100% original books) and slightly restored (99% original books) is often extremely illogical and has to-date, been maintained by negative, stigma-induced overreactions that has materialized by seeing books lose 30-40-50% of their value because of dots of ink or scissors that graced a cover's edge.

 

I refer back to the automobile analogy mentioned earlier. If two $150,000 cars are offered for sale, but one had a scratch covered up with unoriginal paint -- it would be illogical to then offer the buyer a $40,000-$65,000 discount (30-40% off "unrestored" FMV) for a car that is 99% original.

 

Could you imagine the buyer of the 40% marked-down car being jeered, and mocked as fool for not paying $65,000 extra to be without that covered up scratch? Such minor work should entitle a buyer to more than a 1% discount (even if the item is indeed 99% original), but not to an extent in which the item (car, comic book, etc.) loses nearly half of its entire value.

 

I just don't see educated investors of four-figure, five-figure, six-figure and seven-figure books subscribing to such philosophies in the long-run. When stigma-induced phobias are born from such a flawed application of logic, they are, IMO, not entrenched to withstand the long haul.

 

History has so far clearly shown us that you are dead wrong in terms of the bolded portion of your comments above.

 

Fifteen years of CGC grading has shown us that the marketplace continues to live in total and absolute fear of the PLOD, even though logic dictates that this should not be the case. And I don't see nothing at all on the horizon that will change this line of thinking going forward.

 

A classic example of this would be the Church copies of More Fun 52 and Adventure 40 from way back when CGC first started. Both were major key DC books with the same types of restoration activities done to them. The only difference being that the Adventure 40 fell on the wrong side of the line with small amounts of restoration identified and was flagged with a purple label. Borock's former copy of More Fun 52 fell on the right side of the line with only minor amounts of restoration identified and was rewarded with a blue label.

 

Logic would dictate that the difference in price for these 2 pedigree books should not really be that significant at all. And yet while the More Fun 52 was able to sell at a significant premium to guide without any problems at all, the Adventure 40 on the other hand, took several auctions before finding a buyer and then only at a substantial discount to guide. Needless to say, the real overriding difference between these 2 Church books really came down to nothing more than the colour of the labels.

 

Fast forward to today and we continue to hear horror stories whereby gorgeous restored books are being destroyed by having certain parts hacked away just so they can obtain the blue label, albeit it at a much lower technical grade. Totally illogical from a collector's point of view, but totally logical if money is the bottom-line.

 

I can only speak for myself when I say my personal aversion to buying restored books has nothing to do with a lack of understanding of restoration itself. I just will never buy a book that's been messed with in any way like that. Even if it "looks" better because of it. The color coding of the labels is critical because it lets the prospective buyer know that they're getting a restored book without having to scrutinize the label or pull grader notes. This is not a bad thing at all. Restoration disclosure has historically been a problem in this hobby because dealers and sellers have always known that a very large chunk of the buying public either do not want a restored book or will pay a lot less for one. This is nothing new. The reason restored books will always go for a lot less than unrestored books is because there is a much smaller buying pool for restored books. And again, I'm not really sure why this is a problem as it allows a much lower entry point to own certain books.

 

-J.

 

Different strokes, I guess. To me it's a critical illness that Scarlet labeled books can't recover from regardless of how minor the offending injury.

 

While I understand the position you're espousing and respect your POV, I'd like to explain why I feel this viewpoint isn't necessarily healthy for the growth of our hobby.

 

Since CGC opened it's doors in 1999 the hobby has changed dramatically. With encapsulation, trust in restoration checks and grading consistency improved. The values of GA books have increased exponentially, but as prices have skyrocketed, so has the awareness and sophistication of consumers. With disclosure along with the increased trust and security of comic encapsulation, the need for quick identification by label color is long passed.

 

Label coding has now become an albatross around the neck of dealers who'd like customers to at least look at their wall books before the psychological impression of undesirability sets-in. So, from my perspective, the PLODS and GLODS of the world should be revised to keep pace with changes in the marketplace, that's all there is to it. From newfangled idea to buggy-whip in 15 years may seem too soon for some, but that's how things should be in a moving dynamic world. My

 

 

As always it comes down to "how much was done"

 

When you say the color coding is crucial so the buyer doesn't have to scrutiinze the label I can see that being appropriate if the book appears totally different from how it was originally.

 

But when the book doesn't really look different and hasn't been significantly improved then the color coding can only serve the purpose of stigmatizing one defect over another -- for one reason or another.

 

And what reasons can only those be? Only to stigmatize the intent behind a defect. Or to punish a particular defect as restoration when it's not restoration at all. Or to punish a defect (or restoration) more on one book than it's punished on another.

 

And because of the unavoidable conflicts which come out of any of those reasons your final statement becomes even more problematic.

 

If the label color's purpose is to as you say, provide a "much lower entry point" of lower priced books, then it's also about which buyers are given the "much lower entry point" buy and which sellers are made to provide a "much lower entry point" sale.

 

No amount of good faith can erase the doubts that arise when people see that some books with glue or color touch get blue labels while others do not. Or that people are selling slabbed books at one price and then seeing them resold at multiples with restoration removed later on. Or that some hidden improvement techniques aren't colored or even disclosed while others are punished despite full disclosure (and sometimes less alteration to the book). All of those things provide people with opportunities for "entry point" purchases or returns on investment, but arguably none of them are good for the hobby long-term.

 

Comics routinely sell for five and six figures and sometimes sell for seven figures. At those levels I can't see it as a good thing to have a system that aims to relieve the buyer of having to "scrutinize" the label.

 

 

I would never advocate butchering a nicely restored book just to get it back into a blue holder. That's just people gaming the system for monetary gain, I have not advocated that here. But if someone is able to scrape off a bit of colour touch without defacing the book, to get it closer to its original state, sure why not?

 

Problem is, this can not usually be done without defacing the book. Should that make the book worth a certain fraction of the blue label book that was never messed with? I say yes, it should. It should be worth a lot less. These old comic books are like antiquities, not new cars. Antiquities that have been polished up or repainted get severely dinged in their values as well. It should be no different here. When I am buying my books, I would like for them to be original, and as in good a condition as I can afford. By saying this I am not knocking all the nice presenting restored books out there. I am simply saying that there is a very good reason why they sell at a large discount, and most likely always will.

 

-J.

 

Jay, that depends entirely upon the antiquity in question. It's true that patina on most metal and the original finish on furniture is more desirable and values are tied to it. OTOH, sterling silver is more desirable when polished, and automobiles often require professional fabrication/restoration to retain higher collectible value.

 

Damaged or worn paper antiquities such as books, maps, posters, pamphlets and documents are often recommended as needing restoration, with the appraised value actually increasing if professionally done. Food for thought.

[Jaydogrules]

I believe that there are good arguments to both sides.

 

CGC's new label system does give us more details, even if they be at the cost of making the system more complicated. Purple labels are convenient in respects to quickly allowing collectors to have a "rough idea" of what they're looking at (universal vs. restored), but obviously, the purple label has brought with it a stigma that often effects the values of books to a disproportionate-to-logic extent.

 

As I've said in previous posts, the distribution of prices realized between universal (100% original books) and slightly restored (99% original books) is often extremely illogical and has to-date, been maintained by negative, stigma-induced overreactions that has materialized by seeing books lose 30-40-50% of their value because of dots of ink or scissors that graced a cover's edge.

 

I refer back to the automobile analogy mentioned earlier. If two $150,000 cars are offered for sale, but one had a scratch covered up with unoriginal paint -- it would be illogical to then offer the buyer a $40,000-$65,000 discount (30-40% off "unrestored" FMV) for a car that is 99% original.

 

Could you imagine the buyer of the 40% marked-down car being jeered, and mocked as fool for not paying $65,000 extra to be without that covered up scratch? Such minor work should entitle a buyer to more than a 1% discount (even if the item is indeed 99% original), but not to an extent in which the item (car, comic book, etc.) loses nearly half of its entire value.

 

I just don't see educated investors of four-figure, five-figure, six-figure and seven-figure books subscribing to such philosophies in the long-run. When stigma-induced phobias are born from such a flawed application of logic, they are, IMO, not entrenched to withstand the long haul.

 

History has so far clearly shown us that you are dead wrong in terms of the bolded portion of your comments above.

 

Fifteen years of CGC grading has shown us that the marketplace continues to live in total and absolute fear of the PLOD, even though logic dictates that this should not be the case. And I don't see nothing at all on the horizon that will change this line of thinking going forward.

 

A classic example of this would be the Church copies of More Fun 52 and Adventure 40 from way back when CGC first started. Both were major key DC books with the same types of restoration activities done to them. The only difference being that the Adventure 40 fell on the wrong side of the line with small amounts of restoration identified and was flagged with a purple label. Borock's former copy of More Fun 52 fell on the right side of the line with only minor amounts of restoration identified and was rewarded with a blue label.

 

Logic would dictate that the difference in price for these 2 pedigree books should not really be that significant at all. And yet while the More Fun 52 was able to sell at a significant premium to guide without any problems at all, the Adventure 40 on the other hand, took several auctions before finding a buyer and then only at a substantial discount to guide. Needless to say, the real overriding difference between these 2 Church books really came down to nothing more than the colour of the labels.

 

Fast forward to today and we continue to hear horror stories whereby gorgeous restored books are being destroyed by having certain parts hacked away just so they can obtain the blue label, albeit it at a much lower technical grade. Totally illogical from a collector's point of view, but totally logical if money is the bottom-line.

 

I can only speak for myself when I say my personal aversion to buying restored books has nothing to do with a lack of understanding of restoration itself. I just will never buy a book that's been messed with in any way like that. Even if it "looks" better because of it. The color coding of the labels is critical because it lets the prospective buyer know that they're getting a restored book without having to scrutinize the label or pull grader notes. This is not a bad thing at all. Restoration disclosure has historically been a problem in this hobby because dealers and sellers have always known that a very large chunk of the buying public either do not want a restored book or will pay a lot less for one. This is nothing new. The reason restored books will always go for a lot less than unrestored books is because there is a much smaller buying pool for restored books. And again, I'm not really sure why this is a problem as it allows a much lower entry point to own certain books.

 

-J.

 

Different strokes, I guess. To me it's a critical illness that Scarlet labeled books can't recover from regardless of how minor the offending injury.

 

While I understand the position you're espousing and respect your POV, I'd like to explain why I feel this viewpoint isn't necessarily healthy for the growth of our hobby.

 

Since CGC opened it's doors in 1999 the hobby has changed dramatically. With encapsulation, trust in restoration checks and grading consistency improved. The values of GA books have increased exponentially, but as prices have skyrocketed, so has the awareness and sophistication of consumers. With disclosure along with the increased trust and security of comic encapsulation, the need for quick identification by label color is long passed.

 

Label coding has now become an albatross around the neck of dealers who'd like customers to at least look at their wall books before the psychological impression of undesirability sets-in. So, from my perspective, the PLODS and GLODS of the world should be revised to keep pace with changes in the marketplace, that's all there is to it. From newfangled idea to buggy-whip in 15 years may seem too soon for some, but that's how things should be in a moving dynamic world. My

 

 

As always it comes down to "how much was done"

 

When you say the color coding is crucial so the buyer doesn't have to scrutiinze the label I can see that being appropriate if the book appears totally different from how it was originally.

 

But when the book doesn't really look different and hasn't been significantly improved then the color coding can only serve the purpose of stigmatizing one defect over another -- for one reason or another.

 

And what reasons can only those be? Only to stigmatize the intent behind a defect. Or to punish a particular defect as restoration when it's not restoration at all. Or to punish a defect (or restoration) more on one book than it's punished on another.

 

And because of the unavoidable conflicts which come out of any of those reasons your final statement becomes even more problematic.

 

If the label color's purpose is to as you say, provide a "much lower entry point" of lower priced books, then it's also about which buyers are given the "much lower entry point" buy and which sellers are made to provide a "much lower entry point" sale.

 

No amount of good faith can erase the doubts that arise when people see that some books with glue or color touch get blue labels while others do not. Or that people are selling slabbed books at one price and then seeing them resold at multiples with restoration removed later on. Or that some hidden improvement techniques aren't colored or even disclosed while others are punished despite full disclosure (and sometimes less alteration to the book). All of those things provide people with opportunities for "entry point" purchases or returns on investment, but arguably none of them are good for the hobby long-term.

 

Comics routinely sell for five and six figures and sometimes sell for seven figures. At those levels I can't see it as a good thing to have a system that aims to relieve the buyer of having to "scrutinize" the label.

 

 

I would never advocate butchering a nicely restored book just to get it back into a blue holder. That's just people gaming the system for monetary gain, I have not advocated that here. But if someone is able to scrape off a bit of colour touch without defacing the book, to get it closer to its original state, sure why not?

 

Problem is, this can not usually be done without defacing the book. Should that make the book worth a certain fraction of the blue label book that was never messed with? I say yes, it should. It should be worth a lot less. These old comic books are like antiquities, not new cars. Antiquities that have been polished up or repainted get severely dinged in their values as well. It should be no different here. When I am buying my books, I would like for them to be original, and as in good a condition as I can afford. By saying this I am not knocking all the nice presenting restored books out there. I am simply saying that there is a very good reason why they sell at a large discount, and most likely always will.

 

-J.

 

Jay, that depends entirely upon the antiquity in question. It's true that patina on most metal and the original finish on furniture is more desirable and values are tied to it. OTOH, sterling silver is more desirable when polished, and automobiles often require professional fabrication/restoration to retain higher collectible value.

 

Damaged or worn paper antiquities such as books, maps, posters, pamphlets and documents are often recommended as needing restoration, with the appraised value actually increasing if professionally done. Food for thought.

 

This is true however by the same token, a well preserved original will 100 times out of 100 be significantly more valuable and desired by collectors over the same item that has been restored. Nice sig line by the way.

 

-J.

[Ze-man]

 

Damaged or worn paper antiquities such as books, maps, posters, pamphlets and documents are often recommended as needing restoration, with the appraised value actually increasing if professionally done. Food for thought.

 

This is true however by the same token, a well preserved original will 100 times out of 100 be significantly more valuable and desired by collectors over the same item that has been restored. Nice sig line by the way.

 

-J.

 

I don't think anyone is saying otherwise.

 

David made the case that in many other hobbies, restoration of certain items in need of repair, can actually increase the items value.

 

The valuation of restored books in our hobby is ever evolving. With signs that we might consider things other hobbies already embrace.

 

Today we would never restore mid grade key books just to "make them look better" the way they did years ago. But they did, by the hundreds.

 

Most all of the books being restored today are in such poor condition to warrant having work done to save the book and even increases its value. Or had enough previous resto work done(from decades ago) to strip it down, and re do the work increasing it value by raising the apparent grade.

 

To me one of the reasons for the stigma against restoration isn't then the color of the label it may sit in. It's the fact that the books were messed with in the first place. It makes people wrinkle their nose in our hobby, and that initial distaste has never run its course for most comic collectors.

 

Wait, what were we talking about again?

 

I better get back to work before Gator catches me online.

 

 

 

[Wayne-Tec]

I say we take a halftime break to pause and appreciate the fact that all of us, even if we differ in opinion, continue to take the time out of our days to visit the GA section and discuss these particulars.

 

If there's one thing we all have in common, it's that these books are amazing enough to keep us chatting. (thumbs u

[Wayne-Tec]

To me one of the reasons for the stigma against restoration isn't then the color of the label it may sit in. It's the fact that the books were messed with in the first place. It makes people wrinkle their nose in our hobby, and that initial distaste has never run its course for most comic collectors.

 

I may be in the minority, but that doesn't effect me very much.

 

A restored book should be priced according to the quality of work done, the type of work done and the extent of work done. If someone 25 years ago trimmed an edge to deceive someone, shame on him. But if 25 years later, that same book sits in a CGC holder with all of the restoration fully disclosed -- I'm not going to value the book even less so out of spite for the distasteful intentions that brought about the initial restoration.

 

There's no room for stigma and spite. A book is what it is.

[G.A.tor]

Fifteen years of CGC grading has shown us that the marketplace continues to live in total and absolute fear of the PLOD, even though logic dictates that this should not be the case. And I don't see nothing at all on the horizon that will change this line of thinking going forward.

 

I echo that same concern, though I'm a bit more optimistic perhaps.

 

When an ideal is entrenched in nonsensical phobias, you have to believe that either:

 

A) Such phobias, however nonsensical, will continue to thrive. Or...

 

B) Greater understanding and an evolution in common sense will take over.

 

I opt for the latter. You're absolutely right that after 15 years, the hobby still lags behind in that common sense department, but like many other things in history, sometimes it takes longer than it should for greater sense to take over.

 

It's not just 15 years. It's 40+. Restored books have always sold at a discounted rate to unrestored. True, the percentages got worse with cgc, but if the hobby hasn't adopted (as a whole) then I'm not sure it ever will (as a whole). Sure some segments might finally make the connection but I wouldn't hold your breath

 

Hey Gator;

 

The 15 years which I was referring to was with respect to the CGC time period only.

 

Either way, not exactly correct as I believe it has only been for the last 30 years or so for comics on the whole.

 

Have you forgotten about the time period in the 70's and possibly even into the early 80's when restoration was seen as a positive activity which actually increased the value of the books in relationship to their previous unrestored state. Even to the point that Overstreet had an entire section in their price guide which attempted to come up with mathematical calculations and graphical charts to determine the increased value derived from various restoration activities.

 

Much like how undisclosed and sanctioned pressing is being used to artificially increase the value of books in today's marketplace. I wonder what will happen to the value of these books 20 or 30 years from now if their is another grading company in place and pressing and some of these other sanctioned manipulated activities which are taking place nowadays are no longer viewed with the same blue light of approval.

I recall when you would take current apparent grade and add unrestored grade and divide by 2 to get approx value. But I also recall many folks still refusing to buy a restored book. I guess that was more my point.

 

The initial 15 year cgc stigma was more a result of folks learning their previously thought to be unrestored books were in reality restored. The feeling of being duped. That "purple label of death".

[jaybuck43]

I just know for myself personally, I would never consciously buy a purple label* (with the only caveat being if I could pick up a PLOD cheap to flip, but that wouldn't be for my personal collection obviously.)

[bluechip]

To me one of the reasons for the stigma against restoration isn't then the color of the label it may sit in. It's the fact that the books were messed with in the first place. It makes people wrinkle their nose in our hobby, and that initial distaste has never run its course for most comic collectors.

 

I may be in the minority, but that doesn't effect me very much.

 

A restored book should be priced according to the quality of work done, the type of work done and the extent of work done. If someone 25 years ago trimmed an edge to deceive someone, shame on him. But if 25 years later, that same book sits in a CGC holder with all of the restoration fully disclosed -- I'm not going to value the book even less so out of spite for the distasteful intentions that brought about the initial restoration.

 

There's no room for stigma and spite. A book is what it is.

 

There's no question that some people will never get over that distaste because they avoid restored books without regard to how much work was done.

 

There is also no question that the purple label amplifies the impact on value by getting people to avoid the books whether or not they share the same distaste.

 

And there is no question that it's gotten to the point where you can get a higher price for a book by ripping away pieces considered restored. And you can get more for a book that has pinpoint color touch that is barely noticeable if you write a giant name or number on the book which covers up the color touch and, at the same time, obscures major portions of the cover art.

 

[sacentaur]

To me one of the reasons for the stigma against restoration isn't then the color of the label it may sit in. It's the fact that the books were messed with in the first place. It makes people wrinkle their nose in our hobby, and that initial distaste has never run its course for most comic collectors.

 

For long-time collectors that I know, the stigma of restoration rests on the fact that they were repeatedly sold raw restored books without disclosure, and often by some of the Big Names in the hobby (who were foolishly trusted).

 

So the restored comic represented a vehicle for unscrupulous louts to cheat others. Personally, I just wanted to purge those books from my collection as I did not enjoy owning them after discovering that they had been restored.

 

It's taken me a long time to get over the stigma, but now my preference is to actually seek out restored copies on the more expensive books - they look great, I can handle them freely, and their pricing is usually significantly lower than unrestored.

[Filter81]

 

The valuation of restored books in our hobby is ever evolving. With signs that we might consider things other hobbies already embrace.

 

 

Well Said! Restored books have fluctuated from being worth MORE than their unrestored counterparts to being worth less than 10% than their counterparts and the pendulum going forward will probably continue to swing back and forth somewhere in the middle of these two numbers.

 

There will be brief periods of time where restored books will out-perform unrestored copies. (I think we're going through one of those periods right now. Unrestored copies of certain books go up too fast and then restored copies play catch-up. IMO in the last round of auctions restored GA keys outperformed the unrestored keys relative to what they were selling for 6 months ago in many cases) But in the long run unrestored copies will always out-perform restored copies as investment vehicles.

 

There will still always be a place for restored books though. I know right now there is a generation of collectors out there that remember buying raw books from Danny Dupcak, eBay, etc only to be surprised with the dreaded purple label from CGC who probably don't intend to ever add a purple label book to their collection for various reasons. Coming up behind them though is a generation that grew up on certified books who may never be able to afford unrestored copies of certain books who will be actively searching for restored copies of certain books the same way others will always avoid them.

 

There will be plenty of factors that will play into what restored books are worth in the future. And I think we are in the middle of an uptick in restored prices right now but I don't think it has anything to do with the new CGC label colors. I do like the label change though. More info on the label = better.

[conditionfreak]

I would never knowingly purchase a restored book.

 

Just wouldn't. Okay, if it was an Action #1 and was 10% of guide, then I might.

[bluechip]

I would never knowingly purchase a restored book.

 

Just wouldn't. Okay, if it was an Action #1 and was 10% of guide, then I might.

 

Your feeling and your opinion can never be wrong to the extent they're your opinion.

 

I would never pay the kind of money people pay for top census books. I would gladly pay 10% of what others pay for them, but because others are willing to pay many times more I am unlikely ever to get them.

 

And if you are willing to pay only 10% of guide for a 2.0 action 1 that has a tiny dot of color touch then your prediction is right and you won't ever purchase such a book, because people are very unlikely to sell at that price when there are so many others who don't feel the same way and will happily pay many times more.

 

To each his own. There's nothing wrong with what you want or don't want.

 

The only time it goes off the rails, IMV, is when people get frantic that other people are willing to pay more than they are. But if that was true in every case, then they'd never be able to sell anything, because nobody would value anything more than they do.