Cerebus 1 a more valuable key than Hulk 181? Really Overstreet? Poll on Page 87 3 3

[Lazyboy]

4 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

So now it's okay for you to define the parameters for what an appearance is? What happened to your axiom about an appearance being an appearance and how we shouldn't try to complicate things? Again, it comes down to interpretation and comic book collectors like myself and the history of this art form has already decided what Wolverine's first appearance is- Hulk 181. 

No, they haven't. Nobody can just "decide" something like that and make it reality, against the obvious facts. Collectors have decided that full appearances matter more than brief appearances.

Muddying the waters, there has been a large influx of speculators who clearly don't read comics and rely on partial information or even misinformation. This can especially be seen in newly-hot books that didn't have significant awareness before the current speculation era.

4 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

First Appearance in continuity. 

What? I don't think you understand what "continuity" means.

 

 

[Lazyboy]

1 minute ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

when you are distinguishing between the first "cameo" and first "full" appearance of a character then you're just trying to justify why your copy of the latter is worth more. 

No, when you're doing that, you're understanding why it's more significant to collectors. Value isn't (necessarily) that simple, as shown by the prices of Darkseid's early appearances.

[bronze johnny]

3 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

No, they haven't. Nobody can just "decide" something like that and make it reality, against the obvious facts. Collectors have decided that full appearances matter more than brief appearances.

Muddying the waters, there has been a large influx of speculators who clearly don't read comics and rely on partial information or even misinformation. This can especially be seen in newly-hot books that didn't have significant awareness before the current speculation era.

What? I don't think you understand what "continuity" means.

 

 

Read my response in the prior post:

     7 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said: 

There is absolutely no dispute about Wolverine's first official appearance as a Marvel character in a Marvel story. It's Hulk #180.

If you are buying 181 because it's the first full Wolvie story and has a classic cover, great! If you're buying it because it's his 1st app, well....

Official? Where is that word used in defining Wolverine's first appearance as Hulk 180? It is defined as his first appearance in cameo and collectors haven't valued this as much as a Wolvie's first full appearance. Hulk 181 has an iconic cover? I personally agree with you but where is that mentioned? Not sure if we are in the majority when it comes to calling the cover of 181 iconic. 

I am talking about full appearances v. cameo appearances regarding Hulk 180 and 181. So if collectors have decided that first full appearances are more valuable than cameo appearances as you say, how do you explain Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen 134? 

Edited June 28, 2017 by bronze johnny

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, bronze johnny said:

So if collectors have decided that first full appearances are more valuable than cameo appearances as you say, how do you explain Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen 134?

I didn't say that. I said "Collectors have decided that full appearances matter more than brief appearances." As I said in the post after that: "Value isn't (necessarily) that simple, as shown by the prices of Darkseid's early appearances."

A first appearance may be a major factor on the demand side, but it is not the only factor and it doesn't affect the supply side... unless that first appearance was immediately recognized, instantly hot, and unusually high-selling (like ASM 361).

[PhilipB2k17]

On 6/28/2017 at 7:53 AM, bronze johnny said:

Selective interpretation when it benefits your position. However, the correct interpretation requires that we define a first appearance by looking at the totality of circumstances in which that appearance is made- how the character makes the appearance and the role that character has in the story. One panel does not stand on its own without defining the context it's in. You can prove the great consensus of comic book collectors and historians wrong a few decades from now. 

 

The Wolverine appearance in Hulk 180 meets every single criteria of a first appearance.

1. It's full body, and full view. He's not in shadows, or off "screen."

2. He's in his full costume.

3. He identifies himself as "Wolverine."

4. He's in an action pose, and actually has his claws out!

5. He's appearing as part of a new story line in the comic, and not as a throw away appearance.

6. He's actually in the same "physical" space as the main character - Hulk. He's not on a video monitor, or a flashback.

So, the "totality of the circumstances" in this case screams "Wolverine's first published comic book appearance." 

I totally get that collectors (actually, INVESTORS and SPECULATORS) are willing to pay more for Hulk 181. I'm just pointing out that I think it's a bubble, and that 180 is undervalued.

Addendum: I do not regard Wolvie's appearance in Hulk 180 to be a "cameo." A Cameo means a brief appearance that is tangential to the story. It's just a cute throwaway appearance. Wolverine, the character, is debuted in a big story reveal at the end of Hulk 180. Or, it is the cliffhanger big reveal to the beginning of the next story arc. It is not a "cameo." He's not just passing by in the background of the Hulk vs Wendigo fight, never to be heard from again until Giant Sized X-Men #1.

Edited June 29, 2017 by PhilipB2k17

[PhilipB2k17]

21 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

No, when you're doing that, you're understanding why it's more significant to collectors. Value isn't (necessarily) that simple, as shown by the prices of Darkseid's early appearances.

It isn't "more significant to collectors." Its more significant to "speculators and investors." 

[PhilipB2k17]

16 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

I didn't say that. I said "Collectors have decided that full appearances matter more than brief appearances." As I said in the post after that: "Value isn't (necessarily) that simple, as shown by the prices of Darkseid's early appearances."

A first appearance may be a major factor on the demand side, but it is not the only factor and it doesn't affect the supply side... unless that first appearance was immediately recognized, instantly hot, and unusually high-selling (like ASM 361).

There is no hard and fast rule. Hulk 181 got bid up by speculators and investors, so that became the Wolverine appearance that mattered the most to future collectors. It is not based upon objective reality. I think, however, that eventually the bubble on that book will burst. And, I think 180 is undervalued relative to 181, but quite a bit. 

The fact that people have to explain why some cameo first appearances are regarded as true first appearances, but hulk 180 isn't, kind of makes my point. They are making a special exception for Wolverine, because a lot of people have spent a lot of money on 181's and want to prevent that value bubble from bursting.

Edited June 29, 2017 by PhilipB2k17

[PhilipB2k17]

Also, let's discuss Thor 132 and 133.

The excuse I've seen for why FF 48 is regarded as Galactus' first appearance (vs FF 49) is that the story is called the "Coming of Galactus" and its about SS warning about him. So when he shows up at the end, it's a big reveal. But, that's very similar to how Ego the Living Planet was debuted in a huge double page spread at the end of Thor 132. He was talked about and warned about the entire book, and then there was a big reveal at the end.

Is 132 Ego's 1st appearance? Or is it 133? 

Again, some people say the former...some the latter (because that's the first full story appearance). 

None of these distinctions were ever made (or rarely made) until Hulk 181 became a super key, and people had to give all kinds of explanations for why that book took off. Now, suddenly, Wolverine's true first appearance (180) was not somehow more valuable than his second appearance. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by PhilipB2k17

[Lazyboy]

4 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

It isn't "more significant to collectors." Its more significant to "speculators and investors." 

Really? No wonder 180 was more popular/valuable than 181 in the late 90s after the crash drove away all the speculators and investors. Wait a minute...

Why was I disappointed when I bought and read SPJO 134? Could it be because I bought the issue for (what I'd previously seen referenced only as the first appearance of) Darkseid? I certainly didn't buy it for that red-haired dork. And no, that single panel being more than just his head wouldn't have made it significantly better.

4 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

There is no hard and fast rule. Hulk 181 got bid up by speculators and investors, so that became the Wolverine appearance that mattered the most to future collectors. It is not based upon objective reality. I think, however, that eventually the bubble on that book will burst. And, I think 180 is undervalued relative to 181, but quite a bit. 

That's a different argument. I've certainly never said that 181 isn't overvalued, in general or even compared to 180, but that doesn't mean that it should or will ever be worth less than 180.

181 has been more valuable for decades, since it overtook 180. That value shift you want already occurred, just in the opposite direction.

The bubble will burst on Hulk 181, but it isn't alone in that bubble. The entire market is in the same bubble.

4 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

The fact that people have to explain why some cameo first appearances are regarded as true first appearances, but hulk 180 isn't, kind of makes my point. They are making a special exception for Wolverine, because a lot of people have spent a lot of money on 181's and want to prevent that value bubble from bursting.

Any brief first appearances that are widely regarded as "true" first appearances are only due to misinformation/lack of information, most likely based on stupidity or laziness from certain sources that people foolishly trust to be accurate.

ASM 361 has always been the biggest Carnage book, despite Cletus Kasady appearing once alone and twice with the symbiote before that issue.

ASM 300 has been the biggest of 298-300 since Venom became the primary driver of demand, rather than McFarlane.

Avengers 196, X-Factor 6, Uncanny X-Men 266, Thor 412, etc.

Where are all these brief first appearances that are regarded as "true" first appearances?

[Lazyboy]

8 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

None of these distinctions were ever made (or rarely made) until Hulk 181 became a super key, and people had to give all kinds of explanations for why that book took off. Now, suddenly, Wolverine's true first appearance (180) was not somehow more valuable than his second appearance.

 So when did Hulk 181 become a "super key," then?

[bronze johnny]

10 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

The Wolverine appearance in Hulk 180 meets every single criteria of a first appearance.

1. It's full body, and full view. He's not in shadows, or off "screen."

2. He's in his full costume.

3. He identifies himself as "Wolverine."

4. He's in an action pose, and actually has his claws out!

5. He's appearing as part of a new story line in the comic, and not as a throw away appearance.

6. He's actually in the same "physical" space as the main character - Hulk. He's not on a video monitor, or a flashback.

So, the "totality of the circumstances" in this case screams "Wolverine's first published comic book appearance." 

I totally get that collectors (actually, INVESTORS and SPECULATORS) are willing to pay more for Hulk 181. I'm just pointing out that I think it's a bubble, and that 180 is undervalued.

Addendum: I do not regard Wolvie's appearance in Hulk 180 to be a "cameo." A Cameo means a brief appearance that is tangential to the story. It's just a cute throwaway appearance. Wolverine, the character, is debuted in a big story reveal at the end of Hulk 180. Or, it is the cliffhanger big reveal to the beginning of the next story arc. It is not a "cameo." He's not just passing by in the background of the Hulk vs Wendigo fight, never to be heard from again until Giant Sized X-Men #1.

You prove my point again- it's a matter of interpretation. Your defining what is and is not a cameo is contrary to what a cameo appearance is: a short descriptive literary sketch that neatly encapsulates someone or something. Wolverine is neatly encapsulated in one panel. Nothing more. Nothing less. Don't misconstrue the totality of circumstances- the character's impact on the overall story- Wolverine's in Hulk 180: none other than his appearance in the last panel. Wolverine is not screaming all over Hulk 180. 

Your argument is not persuasive- it's not even convincing. I agree with you on one thing- that we disagree. FYI:  I'm neither a speculator, nor an investor. 

Edited June 30, 2017 by bronze johnny

[PhilipB2k17]

2 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

 So when did Hulk 181 become a "super key," then?

I'd say after the Miller mini series is when Wolverine became an A-list character. '82-'83. 181 was starting to heat up a bit before them due to how hot the X-Men were. But it wasn't crazy yet. Not sure when the consensus on it was. 

[Lazyboy]

10 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

The Wolverine appearance in Hulk 180 meets every single criteria of a first appearance.

So, the "totality of the circumstances" in this case screams "Wolverine's first published comic book appearance."

Yes, he appears for the first time, meeting the only criterion for it being his first appearance. It's still only one panel in a standard 18 ( man, the BA sucked) page story.

10 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

1. It's full body, and full view. He's not in shadows, or off "screen."

So what?

10 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

2. He's in his full costume.

So what?

10 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

3. He identifies himself as "Wolverine."

So what?

10 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

4. He's in an action pose, and actually has his claws out!

So what?

10 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

5. He's appearing as part of a new story line in the comic, and not as a throw away appearance.

So What?

10 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

6. He's actually in the same "physical" space as the main character - Hulk. He's not on a video monitor, or a flashback.

So what?

10 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I totally get that collectors (actually, INVESTORS and SPECULATORS) are willing to pay more for Hulk 181. I'm just pointing out that I think it's a bubble, and that 180 is undervalued.

Readers/collectors/Wolverine fans really want the first Wolverine story, not the first story in which Wolverine shows up only in one panel at the end. That's why the house ads promoting the new Wolverine character were for Incredible Hulk 181. That's why Incredible Hulk 181 (not 180) has a Marvel Milestone Edition. That's why Marvel has referred to Incredible Hulk 181 as Wolverine's first appearance multiple times, even though that's obviously not accurate without a qualifier.

10 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Addendum: I do not regard Wolvie's appearance in Hulk 180 to be a "cameo." A Cameo means a brief appearance that is tangential to the story. It's just a cute throwaway appearance. Wolverine, the character, is debuted in a big story reveal at the end of Hulk 180. Or, it is the cliffhanger big reveal to the beginning of the next story arc. It is not a "cameo." He's not just passing by in the background of the Hulk vs Wendigo fight, never to be heard from again until Giant Sized X-Men #1.

There is no definition of "cameo" anywhere that means that. The reason it's not a cameo is because Wolverine was unknown at the time.

[PhilipB2k17]

2 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Yes, he appears for the first time, meeting the only criterion for it being his first appearance. It's still only one panel in a standard 18 ( man, the BA sucked) page story.

So what?

So what?

So what?

So what?

So What?

So what?

Readers/collectors/Wolverine fans really want the first Wolverine story, not the first story in which Wolverine shows up only in one panel at the end. That's why the house ads promoting the new Wolverine character were for Incredible Hulk 181. That's why Incredible Hulk 181 (not 180) has a Marvel Milestone Edition. That's why Marvel has referred to Incredible Hulk 181 as Wolverine's first appearance multiple times, even though that's obviously not accurate without a qualifier.

There is no definition of "cameo" anywhere that means that. The reason it's not a cameo is because Wolverine was unknown at the time.

So what? See. I can dismiss substantive arguments with nonsensical rejoinders as well. 

[PhilipB2k17]

18 hours ago, NetworkSecure said:

Today it might be more significant to flippers, but that's not why 181 became more popular than 180. See, this might sound crazy to you, but back in the day people actually read their comics. If you were a Wolverine fan, which book would you buy to enjoy reading more? One with one little Wolvy panel out of five on a last page, or a book full of Wolverine against the Hulk and Wolvy on the cover? Hulk 181 is more significant to collectors if they're real fans i.e. people who actually read comics.

LMAO!!

99% of the people buying this comic today are not reading it, or buying it for the story. 

[PhilipB2k17]

18 hours ago, NetworkSecure said:

Today it might be more significant to flippers, but that's not why 181 became more popular than 180. See, this might sound crazy to you, but back in the day people actually read their comics. If you were a Wolverine fan, which book would you buy to enjoy reading more? One with one little Wolvy panel out of five on a last page, or a book full of Wolverine against the Hulk and Wolvy on the cover? Hulk 181 is more significant to collectors if they're real fans i.e. people who actually read comics.

How old are you? I've been collecting since the late 70's. I was there when it became popular. It was 100% because it was billed as the 1st appearance of Wolverine. Not because everyone just loved the story, which was effing stupid. Wolvy shows up and fights Hulk and Wendigo. So what? 

[chrisco37]

I think you missed his point.  Way back when, 181 became the key Wolverine book for the reasons he stated.  Collectors determined it's the "better" book.  So it's remained that way. 

[marmat]

I have no dog in this race, but "the first appearance" of a character it's just that, simply the first time that a character appears printed on paper in the context of a story.

Does Wolverine APPEARS in the last page of IH 180? Yes

Is it the FIRST time that Wolverine appears printed on paper in the context of a story? Yes

Then , IH 180 is the first appearance of Wolverine.

All the value, desirability, investment, speculation arguments are a different story and we can keep discussing them at infinitum

What can not be argued in any way is that Wolverine appeared for the very first time in the last page of IH 180. 

Edited July 11, 2017 by marmat

[Lazyboy]

On 2017-06-29 at 8:31 PM, PhilipB2k17 said:

So what? See. I can dismiss substantive arguments with nonsensical rejoinders as well. 

Fixed.

I wasn't dismissing substantive arguments, I was dismissing irrelevant statements that are not criteria for defining a first appearance.

[Paul_Maul]

Maybe when describing keys, we need to move away from the phrase "first appearance" toward something like "introductory story."