Lucifer ordered for a Fox pilot 1 1

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Slabbed or raw, a copy only comes to market a few times a year. And they are usually the same copies. One 9.8, new to market sold recently for $2k (full ask) the moment it listed. Fact of the matter Is we can only speculate how many have survived, my estimates are based on what I see on the census and what I have observed on the open market and recorded sales by GPA. I do not believe people "aren't slabbing" them because, if they do, they can not read the editorial. You can't read any part of a comic once it's slabbed regardless.

 

That's the point I just made. One of the reasons this particular book isn't represented on the census is because you have to deslab it to see the editorial. That's the draw of this book. Collector's don't want, or need, to slab this if they're not selling it.

 

You have to understand what the census is, and what it represents.

 

Fact of the matter is, with what these things sell for, with how valuable they are, even in under 9.0 grades, if they were out there in abundance, there would be more on the census and more regularly on the market.

 

Your first point isn't true, for the reasons stated already, and your second point isn't necessarily true. If they are all in strong hands, it doesn't matter how much they sell for.

 

Pricey/hot comics tend to get slabbed, especially after movie/TV show announcements. The census does not need to have "every issue printed" on it for us to derive an indication as to what is out there.

 

You are giving far, far too much weight to the census, *especially* as it relates to more modern books. There are 5,000 Tick Special Edition #1s that were printed, and yet there are only 101 copies on the census. It is faulty reasoning to suggest that there are only a handful of Tick Special Edition #1s still in existence, because the census represents only 2% of the entire print run.

 

You are using the census to reach conclusions that aren't reasonable.

 

Only 30 copies of a potentially four figure, 25 year old book on the census? I'd actually be surprised if there were even another 60-70 copies floating around out there raw. And I'd be even more surprised if any significant percentage of them were 9.6/9.8 candidates.

 

I'm sure a significant percentage of them are NOT 9.6/9.8 candidates. I'm sure the majority of them are 9.4 and lower.

 

However...it is not reasonable to conclude that Sandman #8 editorial variant...a book that has been known and sought after since almost when it was printed...only has 1/6th the original print run still extant, and the rest have succumbed to the ravages of time.

 

If it was a 1959 book, I'd agree with you. It's not.

 

[Topnotchman]

The movie announcement has done next to nothing for the value of this book, which is unfortunate. It really is under valued (with the exception of course being the #8 editorial variant which only has about 30 known surviving copies, and always costs an arm and a leg the one or two times a year one comes available). Maybe this announcement will move the needle a little more on this classic series.

 

-J.

 

I sold a copy in 2009 for $75.00 in 8.0. For your information it's not on GPA or the census.

[chrisco37]

great news. I figured they'd do a 'thessaly tv series before they did a major deity show, heck even books of magic/House of Secrets would work, but I dunno about Lucifer.

 

I always thought a show about Hob Gadling would be brilliant. Interesting news. thanks for posting!

 

I hope so. I have been hoarding Sandman 13s for a couple years.

 

That's my favorite issue of Sandman. Thought it was wonderful.

[Jaydogrules]

Again, I am not only looking at the census. I am also looking at overall availability on the market. On any given day there are 5-6 copies of Tick #1 on the market, both slabbed and raw. There are additional 5-10 viewable closed listings as well. The book is handy to whomever wants to buy one, whenever.

 

The better example really is the Batman 608 RRP. It had a print run only of about 500, but on any given day you can find a couple available for sale, and a raw copy will also still pop up every now and then. It is also 13 years newer than the Sandman 8 editorial, and even it has 281 copies slabbed on the census, over half its print run. Why? Because it is a potential four figure, highly sought after book. Not everyone is a dealer, and slabs a book because they are going to sell it. Many people slab books to better preserve and protect them. I personally will slab any book that attains a value of $150 or more. I still do not accept that a people are not slabbing all their Sandman 8's, because it will prevent them from reading the editorial. A person can't read any part of their comic book when they slab it no matter what, the editorial doesn't vaporize or cease to exist once the book is slabbed. The book is still what it is. Do people not slab AF 15's because then they can't re-read the first appearance of Spiderman? Of course not.

 

The main difference between the RRP and the #8 is that the RRP was given to dealers and was always destined to end up on the secondary market. The #8 was handed out directly to customers at just two local LCS' in California (and not even all of them were circulated). The market at large did not in fact know about this particular variant for years or start placing a huge premium on it until around 2006-2007. In 2005 a 9.6 copy could still be had for around $40. Since then the value has exploded, as people have learned of its existence. Sandman fans, completionists, variant hunters, etc. want the book, and with movie talk it only made the book more demanded. Even the normal issue of Sandman 8 has become nearly as valuable as Sandman 1, my theory being that there's a halo effect from the variant affecting the price of it.

 

Like I said, all anyone can do is speculate how many were actually circulated (it was not the full 600 run), how many were destroyed, how many were neglected and lost to time, etc. We do have two big clues though... the market, and the census. And the book is almost non-existent on one, and extraordinarily scarce on the other. Saying that maybe only 100 have survived is tripling the amount of copies that we see on the census now. I don't know about you, but I do not see 2 raw copies come up for sale, for every slabbed copy. And these do sell raw from time to time. The last raw copy sold for $1,000. Very few modern-ish books sell for that kind of money raw. How many more Sandman 1's have we seen hit the census since the book went from being $100, to $300-$400? I slabbed my OO copy last year. Didn't sell it. Never will. How many Sandman 4's do you think we will see hitting the census soon? There are plenty of raw copies available out there right now. Nobody had a reason to slab the book....until now maybe.

 

Do you seriously think that people "aren't" slabbing their $1000+ raw grail Sandman 8 editorial variants? A book that was potentially worth $200+ seven years ago? $500+ five years ago? $1000+ two years ago? $2000+ now? Just so they can screw around with it, handle it, and reminisce about what Karen Berger had to say on the inside front cover? I don't think so.

 

But as always, we will just have to agree to disagree on this my friend. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

[seanfingh]

great news. I figured they'd do a 'thessaly tv series before they did a major deity show, heck even books of magic/House of Secrets would work, but I dunno about Lucifer.

 

I always thought a show about Hob Gadling would be brilliant. Interesting news. thanks for posting!

 

I hope so. I have been hoarding Sandman 13s for a couple years.

 

That's my favorite issue of Sandman. Thought it was wonderful.

 

There are some amazing stories in the teens - Calliope, Dream of a Thousand Cats, and the one about Element Girl. Sorry for hijacking the Lucifer thread, but, well, Sandman.

[Jaydogrules]

The movie announcement has done next to nothing for the value of this book, which is unfortunate. It really is under valued (with the exception of course being the #8 editorial variant which only has about 30 known surviving copies, and always costs an arm and a leg the one or two times a year one comes available). Maybe this announcement will move the needle a little more on this classic series.

 

-J.

 

I sold a copy in 2009 for $75.00 in 8.0. For your information it's not on GPA or the census.

 

There are 2, 8.0's on the census, one of them was yours. (thumbs u

 

-J.

[mschmidt]

Do you seriously think that people "aren't" slabbing their $1000+ raw grail Sandman 8 editorial variants? A book that was potentially worth $200+ seven years ago? $500+ five years ago? $1000+ two years ago? $2000+ now? Just so they can screw around with it, handle it, and reminisce about what Karen Berger had to say on the inside front cover? I don't think so.

 

But as always, we will just have to agree to disagree on this my friend. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

There's no agreeing to disagreeing here - it's nuts to claim there are only 30 known copies of this book. Apart from my slabbed copies, I have 5 or 6 raw copies I have no intention of slabbing - at Baltimore I saw 2 raw copies hanging on dealer walls, and it's pretty rare that I don't see at least 1 copy at each show I go to.

 

It's a rare book and one of my personal favorites, but there are a lot more copies out there than the CGC census shows.

[chrisco37]

If it's not on census and/or GPA, it does not exist in Jaydog's world.

[Jaydogrules]

Do you seriously think that people "aren't" slabbing their $1000+ raw grail Sandman 8 editorial variants? A book that was potentially worth $200+ seven years ago? $500+ five years ago? $1000+ two years ago? $2000+ now? Just so they can screw around with it, handle it, and reminisce about what Karen Berger had to say on the inside front cover? I don't think so.

 

But as always, we will just have to agree to disagree on this my friend. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

There's no agreeing to disagreeing here - it's nuts to claim there are only 30 known copies of this book. Apart from my slabbed copies, I have 5 or 6 raw copies I have no intention of slabbing - at Baltimore I saw 2 raw copies hanging on dealer walls, and it's pretty rare that I don't see at least 1 copy at each show I go to.

 

It's a rare book and one of my personal favorites, but there are a lot more copies out there than the CGC census shows.

 

I never said that. I said I'd be surprised if there were more than 100 copies out there total, based on how they were originally circulated and their (lack of) availability on the market. And I stand by that. Seeing one or even two raw copies at a show here and there (amongst hundreds of dealers) doesn't surprise me. Dealers will take their best/coolest/rarest/most expensive stuff to a con, if for no other reason than to be eye candy. I see the same rare GA stuff at almost every con I go to, that doesn't mean I think they're suddenly falling out of the trees.

 

But it is nice to know who the one person is that has been hoarding the #8 editorial variants.

 

-J.

[bluechip]

There is no limit to how many books can be labelled rare because they were manufactured as limited edition collectibles in the first place, whether they be "editorial variants" or "dealer rrp" copies, or whatever. Especially when you add in hoarding and a focus on label numbers. When a publisher today makes and sells a few hundred to a few thousand copies of a variant, virtually none are destroyed and few are even read (at least not carelessly). I understand that people may like some of them, but it intrigues me when the people extolling their value the most turn out to be the same people who say that something truly rare in any condition is worthless if it doesn't have the same grade. Although I have to respect that view when people are consistent and they not only insist on high prices for their 9.8 RRP editions but they are also willing to sell the truly rare but lesser condition item for a pittance. I've met very very few like that, however. Less than a handful, all told. But one of them got a "rare" Platinum Edition of the 1991 Spider-man comic from me and happily exchanged it for a poor condition copy of Pep 22. That's consistency.

Edited September 18, 2014 by bluechip

[Topnotchman]

The movie announcement has done next to nothing for the value of this book, which is unfortunate. It really is under valued (with the exception of course being the #8 editorial variant which only has about 30 known surviving copies, and always costs an arm and a leg the one or two times a year one comes available). Maybe this announcement will move the needle a little more on this classic series.

 

-J.

 

I sold a copy in 2009 for $75.00 in 8.0. For your information it's not on GPA or the census.

 

There are 2, 8.0's on the census, one of them was yours. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

It's not in the census because I sold it raw.

[mschmidt]

Do you seriously think that people "aren't" slabbing their $1000+ raw grail Sandman 8 editorial variants? A book that was potentially worth $200+ seven years ago? $500+ five years ago? $1000+ two years ago? $2000+ now? Just so they can screw around with it, handle it, and reminisce about what Karen Berger had to say on the inside front cover? I don't think so.

 

But as always, we will just have to agree to disagree on this my friend. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

There's no agreeing to disagreeing here - it's nuts to claim there are only 30 known copies of this book. Apart from my slabbed copies, I have 5 or 6 raw copies I have no intention of slabbing - at Baltimore I saw 2 raw copies hanging on dealer walls, and it's pretty rare that I don't see at least 1 copy at each show I go to.

 

It's a rare book and one of my personal favorites, but there are a lot more copies out there than the CGC census shows.

 

I never said that. I said I'd be surprised if there were more than 100 copies out there total, based on how they were originally circulated and their (lack of) availability on the market. And I stand by that. Seeing one or even two raw copies at a show here and there (amongst hundreds of dealers) doesn't surprise me. Dealers will take their best/coolest/rarest/most expensive stuff to a con, if for no other reason than to be eye candy. I see the same rare GA stuff at almost every con I go to, that doesn't mean I think they're suddenly falling out of the trees.

 

But it is nice to know who the one person is that has been hoarding the #8 editorial variants.

 

-J.

 

Ehm ... that's exactly what you said:

 

The movie announcement has done next to nothing for the value of this book, which is unfortunate. It really is under valued (with the exception of course being the #8 editorial variant which only has about 30 known surviving copies, and always costs an arm and a leg the one or two times a year one comes available). Maybe this announcement will move the needle a little more on this classic series.

[Jaydogrules]

Do you seriously think that people "aren't" slabbing their $1000+ raw grail Sandman 8 editorial variants? A book that was potentially worth $200+ seven years ago? $500+ five years ago? $1000+ two years ago? $2000+ now? Just so they can screw around with it, handle it, and reminisce about what Karen Berger had to say on the inside front cover? I don't think so.

 

But as always, we will just have to agree to disagree on this my friend. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

There's no agreeing to disagreeing here - it's nuts to claim there are only 30 known copies of this book. Apart from my slabbed copies, I have 5 or 6 raw copies I have no intention of slabbing - at Baltimore I saw 2 raw copies hanging on dealer walls, and it's pretty rare that I don't see at least 1 copy at each show I go to.

 

It's a rare book and one of my personal favorites, but there are a lot more copies out there than the CGC census shows.

 

I never said that. I said I'd be surprised if there were more than 100 copies out there total, based on how they were originally circulated and their (lack of) availability on the market. And I stand by that. Seeing one or even two raw copies at a show here and there (amongst hundreds of dealers) doesn't surprise me. Dealers will take their best/coolest/rarest/most expensive stuff to a con, if for no other reason than to be eye candy. I see the same rare GA stuff at almost every con I go to, that doesn't mean I think they're suddenly falling out of the trees.

 

But it is nice to know who the one person is that has been hoarding the #8 editorial variants.

 

-J.

 

Ehm ... that's exactly what you said:

 

The movie announcement has done next to nothing for the value of this book, which is unfortunate. It really is under valued (with the exception of course being the #8 editorial variant which only has about 30 known surviving copies, and always costs an arm and a leg the one or two times a year one comes available). Maybe this announcement will move the needle a little more on this classic series.

 

...."Known" copies being those on the census. I speculated on the potential amount of "raw" copies in a later post when RMA asked for the same clarification. Which is ultimately all anyone can do. I base my guesstimate, however, on the info cited heretofore. (thumbs u

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Again, I am not only looking at the census. I am also looking at overall availability on the market. On any given day there are 5-6 copies of Tick #1 on the market, both slabbed and raw. There are additional 5-10 viewable closed listings as well. The book is handy to whomever wants to buy one, whenever.

 

Which market...?

 

The better example really is the Batman 608 RRP. It had a print run only of about 500, but on any given day you can find a couple available for sale, and a raw copy will also still pop up every now and then. It is also 13 years newer than the Sandman 8 editorial, and even it has 281 copies slabbed on the census, over half its print run. Why? Because it is a potential four figure, highly sought after book. Not everyone is a dealer, and slabs a book because they are going to sell it. Many people slab books to better preserve and protect them.

 

Who are these people....? Outside of sig series, you'll find that most people don't slab books to "better preserve and protect them." As many have said before, a book is just as protected (maybe moreso) in a nice mylar and board.

 

I personally will slab any book that attains a value of $150 or more. I still do not accept that a people are not slabbing all their Sandman 8's, because it will prevent them from reading the editorial. A person can't read any part of their comic book when they slab it no matter what, the editorial doesn't vaporize or cease to exist once the book is slabbed. The book is still what it is. Do people not slab AF 15's because then they can't re-read the first appearance of Spiderman? Of course not.

 

You're still not understanding. That a person can't read any part of their comic book when they slab it is the point. That editorial is what makes the book special. Otherwise, there's nothing different between it and a regular #8. There aren't any "interior variant" AF 15s of which I am aware.

 

The main difference between the RRP and the #8 is that the RRP was given to dealers and was always destined to end up on the secondary market.

 

The main difference between the RRP and the #8 variant is that you can still see the variation of an RRP when it is slabbed.

 

The #8 was handed out directly to customers at just two local LCS' in California (and not even all of them were circulated). The market at large did not in fact know about this particular variant for years or start placing a huge premium on it until around 2006-2007.

 

Where are you getting this information...?

 

The book has been known since very shortly after it first appeared. It is broken out in the 1990 OPG Updates, and is priced at $60 (regular $6) in the 1991 Big Guide.

 

I would suggest that appearing in the OPG pretty much means that the "market at large" is fairly aware of it.

 

In 2005 a 9.6 copy could still be had for around $40. Since then the value has exploded, as people have learned of its existence. Sandman fans, completionists, variant hunters, etc. want the book, and with movie talk it only made the book more demanded. Even the normal issue of Sandman 8 has become nearly as valuable as Sandman 1, my theory being that there's a halo effect from the variant affecting the price of it.

 

Or....it could be because it is the second of the two keys to the run, featuring the first appearance of the most popular character (by far) of the Endless, after Morpheus....

 

Like I said, all anyone can do is speculate how many were actually circulated (it was not the full 600 run), how many were destroyed, how many were neglected and lost to time, etc.

 

Speculation without understanding the situation is fruitless.

 

We do have two big clues though... the market, and the census. And the book is almost non-existent on one, and extraordinarily scarce on the other. Saying that maybe only 100 have survived is tripling the amount of copies that we see on the census now. I don't know about you, but I do not see 2 raw copies come up for sale, for every slabbed copy. And these do sell raw from time to time. The last raw copy sold for $1,000. Very few modern-ish books sell for that kind of money raw. How many more Sandman 1's have we seen hit the census since the book went from being $100, to $300-$400? I slabbed my OO copy last year. Didn't sell it. Never will. How many Sandman 4's do you think we will see hitting the census soon? There are plenty of raw copies available out there right now. Nobody had a reason to slab the book....until now maybe.

 

Do you seriously think that people "aren't" slabbing their $1000+ raw grail Sandman 8 editorial variants? A book that was potentially worth $200+ seven years ago? $500+ five years ago? $1000+ two years ago? $2000+ now? Just so they can screw around with it, handle it, and reminisce about what Karen Berger had to say on the inside front cover? I don't think so.

 

Yes. I already explained to you why this was true. If you refuse to accept that answer, that's fine, but it doesn't make it any less true.

 

Are you aware that the Mile High Action #1 is potentially worth $5,000,000 or more? It's not slabbed.

 

Why is that...?

 

But as always, we will just have to agree to disagree on this my friend. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

Be warned, Jay: this isn't Bronze Comics, where people will just let you get away with making unreasonable, unfounded, factually inaccurate statements, where you can just make stuff up out of thin air, and where you will have 2-3 other people "supporting" you.

 

This is Comics General.

 

You may have bitten off more than you can chew....

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Do you seriously think that people "aren't" slabbing their $1000+ raw grail Sandman 8 editorial variants? A book that was potentially worth $200+ seven years ago? $500+ five years ago? $1000+ two years ago? $2000+ now? Just so they can screw around with it, handle it, and reminisce about what Karen Berger had to say on the inside front cover? I don't think so.

 

But as always, we will just have to agree to disagree on this my friend. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

There's no agreeing to disagreeing here - it's nuts to claim there are only 30 known copies of this book. Apart from my slabbed copies, I have 5 or 6 raw copies I have no intention of slabbing - at Baltimore I saw 2 raw copies hanging on dealer walls, and it's pretty rare that I don't see at least 1 copy at each show I go to.

 

It's a rare book and one of my personal favorites, but there are a lot more copies out there than the CGC census shows.

 

I never said that. I said I'd be surprised if there were more than 100 copies out there total, based on how they were originally circulated and their (lack of) availability on the market. And I stand by that. Seeing one or even two raw copies at a show here and there (amongst hundreds of dealers) doesn't surprise me. Dealers will take their best/coolest/rarest/most expensive stuff to a con, if for no other reason than to be eye candy. I see the same rare GA stuff at almost every con I go to, that doesn't mean I think they're suddenly falling out of the trees.

 

But it is nice to know who the one person is that has been hoarding the #8 editorial variants.

 

-J.

 

Ehm ... that's exactly what you said:

 

The movie announcement has done next to nothing for the value of this book, which is unfortunate. It really is under valued (with the exception of course being the #8 editorial variant which only has about 30 known surviving copies, and always costs an arm and a leg the one or two times a year one comes available). Maybe this announcement will move the needle a little more on this classic series.

 

...."Known" copies being those on the census. I speculated on the potential amount of "raw" copies in a later post when RMA asked for the same clarification. Which is ultimately all anyone can do. I base my guesstimate, however, on the info cited heretofore. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

The Mile High Action #1 isn't on the census.

 

I suppose that copy is therefore "unknown"...?

[Jaydogrules]

Do you seriously think that people "aren't" slabbing their $1000+ raw grail Sandman 8 editorial variants? A book that was potentially worth $200+ seven years ago? $500+ five years ago? $1000+ two years ago? $2000+ now? Just so they can screw around with it, handle it, and reminisce about what Karen Berger had to say on the inside front cover? I don't think so.

 

But as always, we will just have to agree to disagree on this my friend. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

There's no agreeing to disagreeing here - it's nuts to claim there are only 30 known copies of this book. Apart from my slabbed copies, I have 5 or 6 raw copies I have no intention of slabbing - at Baltimore I saw 2 raw copies hanging on dealer walls, and it's pretty rare that I don't see at least 1 copy at each show I go to.

 

It's a rare book and one of my personal favorites, but there are a lot more copies out there than the CGC census shows.

 

I never said that. I said I'd be surprised if there were more than 100 copies out there total, based on how they were originally circulated and their (lack of) availability on the market. And I stand by that. Seeing one or even two raw copies at a show here and there (amongst hundreds of dealers) doesn't surprise me. Dealers will take their best/coolest/rarest/most expensive stuff to a con, if for no other reason than to be eye candy. I see the same rare GA stuff at almost every con I go to, that doesn't mean I think they're suddenly falling out of the trees.

 

But it is nice to know who the one person is that has been hoarding the #8 editorial variants.

 

-J.

 

Ehm ... that's exactly what you said:

 

The movie announcement has done next to nothing for the value of this book, which is unfortunate. It really is under valued (with the exception of course being the #8 editorial variant which only has about 30 known surviving copies, and always costs an arm and a leg the one or two times a year one comes available). Maybe this announcement will move the needle a little more on this classic series.

 

...."Known" copies being those on the census. I speculated on the potential amount of "raw" copies in a later post when RMA asked for the same clarification. Which is ultimately all anyone can do. I base my guesstimate, however, on the info cited heretofore. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

The Mile High Action #1 isn't on the census.

 

I suppose that copy is therefore "unknown"...?

 

A copy of an important book can certainly be "known" to the hobby without being on the census. I do not presume to compare the Sandman 8 editorial variant with a Action comics #1, and you shouldn't either.

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

The Mile High Action #1 isn't on the census.

 

I suppose that copy is therefore "unknown"...?

 

A copy of an important book can certainly be "known" to the hobby without being on the census. I do not presume to compare the Sandman 8 editorial variant with a Action comics #1, and you shouldn't either.

 

-J.

 

You have, again, missed the point. The only comparison is to illustrate that the census isn't the final word on what is "known", which is clearly the impression you have made.

[Jaydogrules]

Again, I am not only looking at the census. I am also looking at overall availability on the market. On any given day there are 5-6 copies of Tick #1 on the market, both slabbed and raw. There are additional 5-10 viewable closed listings as well. The book is handy to whomever wants to buy one, whenever.

 

Which market...?

 

The better example really is the Batman 608 RRP. It had a print run only of about 500, but on any given day you can find a couple available for sale, and a raw copy will also still pop up every now and then. It is also 13 years newer than the Sandman 8 editorial, and even it has 281 copies slabbed on the census, over half its print run. Why? Because it is a potential four figure, highly sought after book. Not everyone is a dealer, and slabs a book because they are going to sell it. Many people slab books to better preserve and protect them.

 

Who are these people....? Outside of sig series, you'll find that most people don't slab books to "better preserve and protect them." As many have said before, a book is just as protected (maybe moreso) in a nice mylar and board.

 

I personally will slab any book that attains a value of $150 or more. I still do not accept that a people are not slabbing all their Sandman 8's, because it will prevent them from reading the editorial. A person can't read any part of their comic book when they slab it no matter what, the editorial doesn't vaporize or cease to exist once the book is slabbed. The book is still what it is. Do people not slab AF 15's because then they can't re-read the first appearance of Spiderman? Of course not.

 

You're still not understanding. That a person can't read any part of their comic book when they slab it is the point. That editorial is what makes the book special. Otherwise, there's nothing different between it and a regular #8. There aren't any "interior variant" AF 15s of which I am aware.

 

The main difference between the RRP and the #8 is that the RRP was given to dealers and was always destined to end up on the secondary market.

 

The main difference between the RRP and the #8 variant is that you can still see the variation of an RRP when it is slabbed.

 

The #8 was handed out directly to customers at just two local LCS' in California (and not even all of them were circulated). The market at large did not in fact know about this particular variant for years or start placing a huge premium on it until around 2006-2007.

 

Where are you getting this information...?

 

The book has been known since very shortly after it first appeared. It is broken out in the 1990 OPG Updates, and is priced at $60 (regular $6) in the 1991 Big Guide.

 

I would suggest that appearing in the OPG pretty much means that the "market at large" is fairly aware of it.

 

In 2005 a 9.6 copy could still be had for around $40. Since then the value has exploded, as people have learned of its existence. Sandman fans, completionists, variant hunters, etc. want the book, and with movie talk it only made the book more demanded. Even the normal issue of Sandman 8 has become nearly as valuable as Sandman 1, my theory being that there's a halo effect from the variant affecting the price of it.

 

Or....it could be because it is the second of the two keys to the run, featuring the first appearance of the most popular character (by far) of the Endless, after Morpheus....

 

Like I said, all anyone can do is speculate how many were actually circulated (it was not the full 600 run), how many were destroyed, how many were neglected and lost to time, etc.

 

Speculation without understanding the situation is fruitless.

 

We do have two big clues though... the market, and the census. And the book is almost non-existent on one, and extraordinarily scarce on the other. Saying that maybe only 100 have survived is tripling the amount of copies that we see on the census now. I don't know about you, but I do not see 2 raw copies come up for sale, for every slabbed copy. And these do sell raw from time to time. The last raw copy sold for $1,000. Very few modern-ish books sell for that kind of money raw. How many more Sandman 1's have we seen hit the census since the book went from being $100, to $300-$400? I slabbed my OO copy last year. Didn't sell it. Never will. How many Sandman 4's do you think we will see hitting the census soon? There are plenty of raw copies available out there right now. Nobody had a reason to slab the book....until now maybe.

 

Do you seriously think that people "aren't" slabbing their $1000+ raw grail Sandman 8 editorial variants? A book that was potentially worth $200+ seven years ago? $500+ five years ago? $1000+ two years ago? $2000+ now? Just so they can screw around with it, handle it, and reminisce about what Karen Berger had to say on the inside front cover? I don't think so.

 

Yes. I already explained to you why this was true. If you refuse to accept that answer, that's fine, but it doesn't make it any less true.

 

Are you aware that the Mile High Action #1 is potentially worth $5,000,000 or more? It's not slabbed.

 

Why is that...?

 

But as always, we will just have to agree to disagree on this my friend. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

Be warned, Jay: this isn't Bronze Comics, where people will just let you get away with making unreasonable, unfounded, factually inaccurate statements, where you can just make stuff up out of thin air, and where you will have 2-3 other people "supporting" you.

 

This is Comics General.

 

You may have bitten off more than you can chew....

 

 

"The Market". If you don't know what I mean by that, I don't know what to tell you. It should be obvious. For example....where would you look to find one for sale right now? Can't find any? That means there are none currently on "The Market".

 

You have an interesting way of stating your opinions as facts. I have stated from the beginning that I am guesstimating the amount of surviving copies. All you have done is try to convince me that my opinion is wrong and that your opinion is right. They are still both "opinions" either way. I, however am basing my opinion on current census figures, scarcity on "The Market", its original miniscule print run and how it was distributed. You are basing your opinion on really nothing more than speculation on what people "may or may not" be doing with however many raw copies might be out there. You have not disputed that they rarely come to market, raw or slabbed, and other than saying "No", you have not explained how or why that does not suggest that there would be significantly more than my guesstimate of 100 surviving copies.

 

I am more than happy to listen to and debate anyone's opinions on these boards. Just as long as they realize and understand that that is all we are doing. (thumbs u

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

"The Market". If you don't know what I mean by that, I don't know what to tell you. It should be obvious. For example....where would you look to find one for sale right now? Can't find any? That means there are none currently on "The Market".

 

No need to be patronizing. I'll clarify:

 

Do you mean eBay? CLink? Heritage? Dealers' websites?

 

There was a copy on CLink that sold in the last couple of weeks.

 

You have an interesting way of stating your opinions as facts.

 

Example?

 

 

You mean, like this one:

 

The market at large did not in fact know about this particular variant for years

 

...which is not true in the slightest...?

 

I have stated from the beginning that I am guesstimating the amount of surviving copies.

 

Your guesstimations are not close, and your reasoning behind them is not sound.

 

All you have done is try to convince me that my opinion is wrong and that your opinion is right.

 

I'm not trying to "convince" you of anything. I don't need to, because I don't care what you ultimately believe. Now, that doesn't mean I don't care about you, or feel the need to disrespect or dismiss you, but if you believe things which aren't true, that's your business. I care only about the facts, what is true. Trying to "convince" anyone of anything is about the most useless waste of time that exists.

 

They are still both "opinions" either way. I, however am basing my opinion on current census figures, scarcity on "The Market", its original miniscule print run and how it was distributed. You are basing your opinion on really nothing more than speculation on what people "may or may not" be doing with however many raw copies might be out there.

 

Oh boy.

 

You have not disputed that they rarely come to market, raw or slabbed,

 

Why would I dispute something that is true?

 

and other than saying "No", you have not explained how or why that does not suggest that there would be significantly more than my guesstimate of 100 surviving copies.

 

I have already explained, in great detail, why there is significantly more than your guesstimate of surviving copies. Scroll up, the posts are still there.

 

I am more than happy to listen to and debate anyone's opinions on these boards. Just as long as they realize and understand that that is all they are doing. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

As I have said before, in other places, Jay, this type of extraneous commentary about *how* people debate is pointless, creates ill-will, and muddies the debate (all of which you know, which is why you engage in it.)

 

Stick to the topic. Don't debate the person, debate the subject.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

It's quote-city in here!