1st Teen Titans 3 3

[Lazyboy]

19 hours ago, nearmint said:

Over 200 episodes of the animated series.  A live-action series coming next year produced by Greg Berlanti.  They're hardly second rate, and that's nothing new.  They were one of the biggest things in comics over 30 years ago.

12 hours ago, Silver said:

No, the Titans are not second rate. I had a seven year old over this eeekend and he asked to watch TV, he said he wanted to watch Teen Titans Go. I watched the episode with him. Weird but funny.

The only (very slight) argument against the Titans is that they aren't the JLA or Avengers. But I'm sure fans of any other teams would hate to hear how those teams are ranked then.

[VintageComics]

3 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

Nothing was formed in BB 54. There isn't even the slightest indication that the 3 characters will ever see each other again.

There are two camps coming from two philosophical backgrounds.

There are those that are literal and looking for a literal reference.

There are those that feel that the spirit of the team is enough to call them a team.

I would wager that all the people in this discussion fall into one of the two groups.

I am still OK with calling #54 a 1st team appearance even if they aren't named as such by the editors.

3 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

It's a terrible idea for you to bring up the X-Men, considering the point you're trying to make.

You're missing my point, but it's OK.

Also, it's worth disclosing that I have no vested interest in the discussion. I even own a #60 but not a #54. Doesn't change the fact that I feel #54 is the bigger book.

I do love the black cover to #60 though.

[JTLarsen]

6 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

Yep.  The cases are laid out in detail.  We just disagree on what matters most: the trademark or the continuity of the story of the team.

When you dishonestly represent your opponents' side, you reveal the paucity of your own argument. The argument isn't that "the trademark" doesn't appear in 54. It's that the team doesn't appear, form, or get named in 54. If you truly valued the continuity of the story, you'd care about the details of each. No team is formed in the story told in 54. The story told in 60 reveals that the continuity of the team began in the events after 54. 

[sfcityduck]

3 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

No. They are very similar before their respective endings, but they wildly diverge at that point.

In Avengers 1, multiple characters are brought together. At the end, they form a team and even name themselves.

In BB54, multiple characters are brought together. After they beat a lame villain, nothing happens. Off panel, between 54 and 60, Robin forms the Teen Titans and they debut in 60.

 

BB 54 ends with our heroes having had a successful adventure together (and DC touting a "new team" for whatever that may be worth). BB 60 begins with Robin saying the TT were formed as a result of the adventure in BB 60.  As a matter of continuity, which is all that really should matter here, the origin of the Teen Titans is BB 54.  All that happens, as a matter of continuity, in BB 60, is that the new team adopts a name and has a second adventure together.  

The right analogy here is TTA 27.  We can all agree that when Stan wrote TTA 27 he wasn't thinking he was writing the origin of a superhero.  But, when he wrote TTA 35, he CONTINUED the story and made TTA 27 the origin of Antman.  That's what continuity is all about.  Continuing stories.  And BB 60 is nothing more or less than a continuation of the story of the Teen Titans started in BB 54.  Just as with TTA 27, our heroes don't yet have a name, but they get that (as with Antman and Animal Man and others) in the next story.

The formula of the continuous story told in BB 54 and BB 60 is not only identical to that told in Avengers 1 (heroes meet, fight villian, decide good time was had by all, form a team and adopt a name), but also in GS X-Men 1 and X-Men 94.  It wasn't until X-Men 94 for the "New X-Men" team was actually formed when they have the obligatory "let's form a team" moment and a number of mutants reject the call to join the new team.  

Edited September 12, 2017 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

7 minutes ago, JTLarsen said:

When you dishonestly represent your opponents' side, you reveal the paucity of your own argument. The argument isn't that "the trademark" doesn't appear in 54. It's that the team doesn't appear, form, or get named in 54. If you truly valued the continuity of the story, you'd care about the details of each. No team is formed in the story told in 54. The story told in 60 reveals that the continuity of the team began in the events after 54. 

You and I disagree on who is being dishonest here.  I take comfort in my honesty from the fact that DC itself adopts my view.  

[JTLarsen]

10 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

You and I disagree on who is being dishonest here.  I take comfort in my honesty from the fact that DC itself adopts my view.  

DC's view is that people who disagree with you care about the trademark? You continually shade your descriptions toward your argument, not just on the intellectually dishonest characterization of your opponents' argument. DC doesn't tout a "new team" in the sense you suggest--as we've litigated ad nauseam, they referred to every teamup at that time as a new team. Robin doesn't say the team formed AS A RESULT of the adventure in 54. You saying that 54 is the origin doesn't make it so. You saying that "all" that happens in 60 is adopting a name and having a "second" adventure doesn't make it so. IIRC correctly, the name and team are established before the events of 60, but after 54, making 60 their first, not second adventure. First appearance, even. If you want to say 54 is their "origin," go right ahead, there's nothing in the text to contradict you. But 60 is the first time a superhero team called the Teen Titans appears in comics.

[sfcityduck]

1 hour ago, JTLarsen said:

But 60 is the first time a superhero team called the Teen Titans appears in comics.

No.  IMHO, 60 is the first time that the team that first appeared in 54 is called the Teen Titans.

[lou_fine]

14 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

On 9/10/2017 at 8:40 PM, lou_fine said:

I would tend to agree with him, but probably best to reserve judgement until I see what kind of prices a subsequent second or third copy of BB 54 in 9.8 graded condition will end up going for.  If the book is as good as you guys are thinking, then subsequent copies in equivalent or higher grades should continue to increase and reinforce whatever price this copy will be going for.   

Sole highest graded will always command the higher price. In general, you will find that subsequent 9.8's will sell for significantly less.  Assuming this copy sells for 40K, if a couple more 9.8's hit the market, I think 20 -30K would be the range.  It's even worse when the sole highest graded is eclipsed by a yet higher grade. Of course a movie or something of that sort changes the dynamics and 40K could seem cheap. 

To each their own, I would have to say then. 

I guess I am really much more of a long time collector of comic books years before CGC was even a thought in anybody's mind, as opposed to a CGC generational type of comic book collector.  As such, I would much rather buy a book where the actual value is coming from the underlying comic book itself, as opposed to one where the underlying value is derived mainly from the big number on the top left hand corner of the slab. 

Being an old school type of collector, I would certainly prefer to purchase a book such as a 'Tec 31/38 or more recently AF 15 whereby subsequent sales of other copies in all condition grades (i.e. either lower, higher, or equivalent) will only serve to not only reinforce the price which you had paid for your copy, but also help to lift prices of all copies even further up.  I would not want to be in a position whereby the presence of another equivalent graded or possibly higher graded copy would only serve to devalue your copy because at that point, are you not really buying and collecting a CGC label as opposed to buying and collecting a book.

Paying a horrendous premium just to have the so-called sole highest graded copy seems to carry substantial inherent financial risk as this additional value would appear to be of a transitory nature only, since it would disappear as soon as another equivalent or higher graded copy comes along.  It's almost akin to purchasing a ticking time bomb, since more than likely another copy will come along sooner or later.  According to what board members says here, I guess this would probably explain why Hulk 181's have increased substantially in price in all grades across the entire condition spectrum, with the exception of the 9.8 graded copies which have apparently dropped down in value over the past few years. 

Edited September 12, 2017 by lou_fine

[Silver]

6 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

No.  IMHO, 60 is the first time that the team that first appeared in 54 is called the Teen Titans.

Then we're in agreement, 60 is the first Teen Titans. 

[sfcityduck]

2 hours ago, Silver said:

Then we're in agreement, 60 is the first Teen Titans. 

 In your dreams!

[Chillax23]

Can't we all just get along

[Bomber-Bob]

Both Overstreet and CGC give it to #54. Get them to change and the marketplace will go along. Until then, the #60 side can argue all they want, it doesn't matter.

[lou_fine]

9 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Both Overstreet and CGC give it to #54. Get them to change and the marketplace will go along. Until then, the #60 side can argue all they want, it doesn't matter.

  I got a better idea......why don't we simply split the difference and just give it to BB 57 then and end this silly little squabble. 

Edited September 12, 2017 by lou_fine

[Lazyboy]

2 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

BB 54 ends with our heroes having had a successful adventure together and DC touting the "new team."

No, it doesn't. The editorial blurb at the end of the story is generic. It wasn't carefully crafted for the team-up in that issue. All the team-ups at that time were called "teams" by DC.

This has been explained multiple times by multiple people. Why are you being intentionally obtuse?

The blurb is just plain wrong - even dishonest - if you take it literally. After the Teen Titans, the remainder of the series only features one new team, and that is many years later in the final issue.

1 minute ago, sfcityduck said:

You and I disagree on who is being dishonest here.  I take comfort in my honesty from the fact that DC itself adopts my view.  

But DC doesn't adopt your view. You'll get different versions depending on which company representative is dealing with something like this. When something from DC has called BB54 the first Teen Titans, it was most likely somebody just going along with the "wisdom" of the hobby. DC has also produced things that say BB54 is not the first appearance or origin of the Teen Titans.

For another example of the absolute perfection and consistency of publishers, Incredible Hulk 181 is apparently the (unqualified) first appearance of Wolverine:

Marvel said so, so it must be true. They couldn't possibly be wrong, right?

[TeddieMercede]

$39,888 for the 9.8 54 - that's just crazy. 

[Bomber-Bob]

1 hour ago, TeddieMercede said:

$39,888 for the 9.8 54 - that's just crazy. 

But it is nice to see a 12 cent DC book get some real valuation.

[sfcityduck]

4 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

But it is nice to see a 12 cent DC book get some real valuation.

It's a key book from 1964.  

[sfcityduck]

4 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

.

Marvel said so, so it must be true. They couldn't possibly be wrong, right?

The marketplace seems to agree that 181 is the more significant book and "true" first appearance, whatever that means.  But, when Marvel reprinted the first appearance of Wolverine, they started with 180.  So you are just proving that publishers can be wrong.  No argument from me on that score.  I think Marvel got it right when they gave it more thought.

I just think DC has gotten the first appearance of the TT right more often than it has gotten it wrong, including in the recent 50th Anniversary book.

To me, the analogy here is to TTA 27.  You disagree.  Hence we get the fun of debate.  

Edited September 13, 2017 by sfcityduck

[Silver]

26 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

It's a key book from 1964.  

In this we agree 

[JTLarsen]

On 9/11/2017 at 10:34 PM, sfcityduck said:

No.  IMHO, 60 is the first time that the team that first appeared in 54 is called the Teen Titans.

 

On 9/11/2017 at 10:34 PM, sfcityduck said:

No.  IMHO, 60 is the first time that the team that first appeared in 54 is called the Teen Titans.

OMG, this again. Fine, please post the panel in which they are a team (as opposed to heroes working together prior to forming a team.) And if you read 60 he literally says they formed the team after 54.

 It's like saying America was founded the first time Washington, Madison, and Jefferson met.