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1st Teen Titans
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1,128 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Martin Sinescu said:

(first time the name is used

Isn't the name used at the end part of the story in BB #54? Just going from memory.

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26 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

Isn't the name used at the end part of the story in BB #54? Just going from memory.

 

26 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

Isn't the name used at the end part of the story in BB #54? Just going from memory.

Nope. No team. No name. Most non-appearance first appearance I've ever seen.

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4 minutes ago, Silver said:

Agreed. Classic try out issue. 

Agreed!

Not to mention they're missing Wonder Girl...I'm not sure why it hasn't been re-evaluated. I suppose their concerned about backlash at this point?

I've definitely seen issues we're they've modified the label though. Just take a look at Justice League of America #75. It went from being the first SA appearance of Dinah Lance and now it's not marked that way. I believe it states that she joins the JLA, or something like that.

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1 hour ago, Howling Mad said:

Agreed!

Not to mention they're missing Wonder Girl...I'm not sure why it hasn't been re-evaluated. I suppose their concerned about backlash at this point?

I've definitely seen issues we're they've modified the label though. Just take a look at Justice League of America #75. It went from being the first SA appearance of Dinah Lance and now it's not marked that way. I believe it states that she joins the JLA, or something like that.

Not to mention Sgt. Rock and OAW 81 and 83. It does happen, it just takes time.

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9 hours ago, JTLarsen said:
10 hours ago, VintageComics said:

Isn't the name used at the end part of the story in BB #54? Just going from memory.

Nope. No team. No name. Most non-appearance first appearance I've ever seen.

I remember having this discussion in the 1st Teen Titans app thread. I just can't remember where it appeared.

I don't know if it was in BB #54 that somewhere they were called that (at the end of the story or on the editor's page) or in BB #60 there was a reference made to them being together 'again' but there was something we discussed.

At the time I had a copy of both books raw so that I could check. I no longer do.

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5 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

I remember having this discussion in the 1st Teen Titans app thread. I just can't remember where it appeared.

I don't know if it was in BB #54 that somewhere they were called that (at the end of the story or on the editor's page) or in BB #60 there was a reference made to them being together 'again' but there was something we discussed.

At the time I had a copy of both books raw so that I could check. I no longer do.

Yup. 60 refers to them forming the Teen Titans after the events of 54.

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6 minutes ago, JTLarsen said:

Yup. 60 refers to them forming the Teen Titans after the events of 54.

It wasn't that simple. There was something that referenced #54 as being the 1st time and 60 the 2nd. I'll try to find it when I have some time.

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The books are clearly connected, because 60 references 54 as their first adventure together and the reason they formed the TT. But after going with the status quo that 54 is the first appearance, I've been leaning toward 60 more and more. We will see if the Sgt Rock analogy finally applies here too. The hobby speaks with its wallets.  

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5 hours ago, VintageComics said:

It wasn't that simple. There was something that referenced #54 as being the 1st time and 60 the 2nd. I'll try to find it when I have some time.

Lots of things reference 54 as the first. But none of them are 54 itself (or 60).

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4 hours ago, Aman619 said:

The books are clearly connected, because 60 references 54 as their first adventure together and the reason they formed the TT. But after going with the status quo that 54 is the first appearance, I've been leaning toward 60 more and more. We will see if the Sgt Rock analogy finally applies here too. The hobby speaks with its wallets.  

Yeah. 60 refers to 54, but says it preceded the formation of the TT. Which, it'd have to, since there is no TT in 54.

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The idea that missing Wonder Girl negates them being the TT does not really hold much water as teams change all the time plus no one would argue the Avengers didn't  form in Avengers 1 because Cap doesn't join until issue 4 (and he is much more important to the Avengers than Wonder Girl is to the TT).

The lack of naming the team in BB54 is a better argument - but again I am just not sure it defines when a team or character first appears.  If Superman is not named in AC1 but in the next issue would people argue AC1 is not the first appearance? What about BB28 and the JLA - what if the name JLA is on the cover but not on the inside is this enough?

i still lean 54 as they teamed-up, they referenced doing it again - they just lacked a name - BUT I can see the argument for 60 - in the end just buy both???

 

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11 hours ago, Chillax23 said:

The idea that missing Wonder Girl negates them being the TT does not really hold much water as teams change all the time plus no one would argue the Avengers didn't  form in Avengers 1 because Cap doesn't join until issue 4 (and he is much more important to the Avengers than Wonder Girl is to the TT).

Cap wasn't a founding member of the Avengers. The Avengers existed without him at the start, although not for long.

Wonder Girl was a founding member of the Teen Titans. The Titans never existed before she was a member.

11 hours ago, Chillax23 said:

The lack of naming the team in BB54 is a better argument - but again I am just not sure it defines when a team or character first appears.  If Superman is not named in AC1 but in the next issue would people argue AC1 is not the first appearance? What about BB28 and the JLA - what if the name JLA is on the cover but not on the inside is this enough?

Individuals and teams are not the same. As I said earlier in the thread: "A team doesn't exist until it's officially formed. You still exist even if I don't know your name."

11 hours ago, Chillax23 said:

i still lean 54 as they teamed-up, they referenced doing it again - they just lacked a name - BUT I can see the argument for 60 - in the end just buy both???

Yes, there was a team-up of Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad in 54. There was no team, named or not.

22 hours ago, VintageComics said:

I remember having this discussion in the 1st Teen Titans app thread. I just can't remember where it appeared.

I don't know if it was in BB #54 that somewhere they were called that (at the end of the story or on the editor's page) or in BB #60 there was a reference made to them being together 'again' but there was something we discussed.

You are probably thinking of the generic editorial blurb at the end of the story. The same (or very similar) inappropriately-worded blurb that was used at the end of every team-up story at the time, referring to the "team" that had appeared in the issue.

22 hours ago, VintageComics said:
22 hours ago, JTLarsen said:

Yup. 60 refers to them forming the Teen Titans after the events of 54.

It wasn't that simple. There was something that referenced #54 as being the 1st time and 60 the 2nd. I'll try to find it when I have some time.

You're going to be searching for a long time, because such a thing does not exist.

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15 hours ago, Chillax23 said:

i still lean 54 as they teamed-up, they referenced doing it again - they just lacked a name - BUT I can see the argument for 60 - in the end just buy both???

I still lean towards 54 as well and can also see the argument for 60 - but I'm not a legalistic person. It doesn't need to be spelled out for me. The spirit of something is enough and in this case to me they are the Teen Titans even though they weren't name as such.

45 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

You are probably thinking of the generic editorial blurb at the end of the story. The same (or very similar) inappropriately-worded blurb that was used at the end of every team-up story at the time, referring to the "team" that had appeared in the issue.

I believe that was it. Can someone post a picture of that blurb as I don't remember what it was....

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1 hour ago, VintageComics said:

I still lean towards 54 as well and can also see the argument for 60 - but I'm not a legalistic person. It doesn't need to be spelled out for me. The spirit of something is enough and in this case to me they are the Teen Titans even though they weren't name as such.

I believe that was it. Can someone post a picture of that blurb as I don't remember what it was....

This seems fair. If 54 "feels" like the first appearance to you, go for it. I just don't want unwary buyers not to know the facts.

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The final (story) pages from issues 54, 55, and 60:

BB54end.jpg.657b8d3e1aebe9df91248513774dc3fe.jpg

BB55end.jpg.59165618ab071ad86809989ba317f56f.jpg

BB60end.jpg.90a073f9b460183ec53c2d138861b2d3.jpg

I'm sure I don't need to remind anybody about the extensive, well-known adventures of the Atom/Metal Men team, so we'll move on to the teenagers.

It seems strange that the alleged new teammates in 54 have practically no interaction at the end of their alleged first adventure, while the members of the actual new team in 60 say goodbye to each other and reference a future meeting.

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On 9/7/2017 at 10:42 AM, lou_fine said:

Shades of highest graded copies of what are otherwise common books such as GL 76, NM 98, GI Joe 21, FF 52, etc. that once sold for ridiculous amounts of money at one time and then, not surprisingly, had nowhere else to go but down.  :tonofbricks:

Clearly, lesson not learned and especially when grading is still a subjective art as opposed to an exact science in this day and age when artificial grade enhancement is still sadly the name of the game.  :frown:

 

On 9/7/2017 at 10:50 AM, nearmint said:

I don't know that you can lump in BB54 with the other books that you mentioned, which have much higher census numbers. 

NM98 - 13,250 copies

FF52 - 2455 copies

GL76 - 1650 copies

BB54 - 661 copies

I don't think you can really compare the census numbers for a Marvel book to a DC book, especially a CA NM 98, with all of the marvel zombies around.  :D

As for the BB 54 to Gl 76 census comparison, I believe the GL 76 has always not only been a much higher priced book, but also one that is in much more demand and as such, more collectors would have been looking to slab this book as compared to a BB 54.  Especially with all of the hype for years that the collecting marketplace was looking for that uber HG GL 76 to come along.  Certainly didn't hear the same talk or desire to find an uber HG copy of BB 54.  hm

Hence, I would have been absolutely shocked if the less popular and less in-demand BB 54 had had more submissions than the critically acclaimed and more highly sought after GL 76.  (thumbsu

 

Edited by lou_fine
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12 hours ago, lou_fine said:

 

I don't think you can really compare the census numbers for a Marvel book to a DC book, especially a CA NM 98, with all of the marvel zombies around.  :D

As for the BB 54 to Gl 76 census comparison, I believe the GL 76 has always not only been a much higher priced book, but also one that is in much more demand and as such, more collectors would have been looking to slab this book as compared to a BB 54.  Especially with all of the hype for years that the collecting marketplace was looking for that uber HG GL 76 to come along.  Certainly didn't hear the same talk or desire to find an uber HG copy of BB 54.  hm

Hence, I would have been absolutely shocked if the less popular and less in-demand BB 54 had had more submissions than the critically acclaimed and more highly sought after GL 76.  (thumbsu

 

We'll have to agree to disagree.  BB54 has been a high value book for a long time.  I don't think your argument explains a 1,000 copy disparity in slabbed copies. 

As for NM98, I was just using your examples.  :slapfight:

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24 minutes ago, nearmint said:
13 hours ago, lou_fine said:

 

I don't think you can really compare the census numbers for a Marvel book to a DC book, especially a CA NM 98, with all of the marvel zombies around.  :D

As for the BB 54 to Gl 76 census comparison, I believe the GL 76 has always not only been a much higher priced book, but also one that is in much more demand and as such, more collectors would have been looking to slab this book as compared to a BB 54.  Especially with all of the hype for years that the collecting marketplace was looking for that uber HG GL 76 to come along.  Certainly didn't hear the same talk or desire to find an uber HG copy of BB 54.  hm

Hence, I would have been absolutely shocked if the less popular and less in-demand BB 54 had had more submissions than the critically acclaimed and more highly sought after GL 76.  (thumbsu

 

We'll have to agree to disagree.  BB54 has been a high value book for a long time.  I don't think your argument explains a 1,000 copy disparity in slabbed copies. 

As for NM98, I was just using your examples.  :slapfight:

No problems as we are just here to have friendly discussions on these books anyways.  (thumbsu

I actually used to have an uber HG copy of BB 54 in my personal collection, but ended up selling it to one of Fishler's customers along with a really nice copy of Adventure 260 back in the mid 90's.  Not sure how Steve knew I had it, but it sure made my better half happy at the time.  Definitely doesn't look like the best move to have made based upon today's marketplace.  doh!

 

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I just don't get how people who understand what Brave and the Bold was don't get that number 54 was just another team up issue.   That particular issue was the inspiration for number 60.  I get the desire to call number 54 the first Teen Titans. I have said on many occasions I own both issues and the 54 is one of my favorite silver age  issues of all time, that does not make it the first appearance of the Teen Titans though.  To me it just seems obvious that the popularity of the response from number 54 brought the editors back to the drawing board to create something with more of an ongoing status. That is number 60.  The 54 is always going to be a highly sought after popular and valuable issue and I hope that never changes, however it does not contain the key elements necessary to call it the first appearance of the Teen Titans. 

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