1st Teen Titans 3 3

[JTLarsen]

14 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Both Overstreet and CGC give it to #54. Get them to change and the marketplace will go along. Until then, the #60 side can argue all they want, it doesn't matter.

Of course it matters. If one person sees this and buys either 60 OR 54 as an INFORMED choice, it matters to them.

[Silver]

One thing for sure, 60'is a key and it is rising in value. It is also harder to find in high grade than 54. 

[sfcityduck]

6 hours ago, JTLarsen said:

 

OMG, this again. Fine, please post the panel in which they are a team (as opposed to heroes working together prior to forming a team.) And if you read 60 he literally says they formed the team after 54.

 It's like saying America was founded the first time Washington, Madison, and Jefferson met. 

No the right analogy is TTA 27.   Your analogy fails, except to show how ridiculous your reasoning is.  Shouting "SQUIRRELS!" won't work here.

The first time any member of the Teen Titans appears in BB 60 is on the top of the fifth page of the story.  Here's what happens:

Batman:  "What's this?  Calling the Teen Titans:

Robin:  Check, Batman!  Teen Titans is a group of junior crime-fighters I set up after Kid Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners!

Of course, Hatton Corners was the story told in BB 54.  Thus, Robin (1) ties the creation of the Teen Titans directly to the adventure of Hatton Corners, (2) confirming that adventure as the origin of the Teen Titans, and (3) establishes that the Teen Titans exist prior to the story told in BB 60.  Any doubt that BB 54 is the origin of the Teen Titans is removed because that panel is footnoted with the editorial comment "See Brave and the Bold 54."  

Thus, the story you claim is the first Teen Titans appearance refers you back to BB 54 for the origin of the pre-existing team.  The CONTINUITY was clear from day one.  Again, you are elevating the trademark over the story continuity.  That's your choice.  I and many others choose differently.

When Robin says the team was formed "after Kid Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners" he's just referring to the old staid sequence of events of all group origin stories:  The members meet, have an adventure, THEN decide to form a team.  Just as with Avengers 1 and GS X-Men 94/X-Men 94.  

Pretending you don't understand the argument for BB 54 as the origin of the Teen Titans seems more than a wee bit disingenuous.  The more honest approach is just to admit that you agree the story of the Teen Titans begins in BB 54, but you view the emergence of the "Teen Titans" name and trademark as more significant.  

[JTLarsen]

1 hour ago, sfcityduck said:

No the right analogy is TTA 27.   Your analogy fails, except to show how ridiculous your reasoning is.  Shouting "SQUIRRELS!" won't work here.

The first time any member of the Teen Titans appears in BB 60 is on the top of the fifth page of the story.  Here's what happens:

Batman:  "What's this?  Calling the Teen Titans:

Robin:  Check, Batman!  Teen Titans is a group of junior crime-fighters I set up after Kid Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners!

Of course, Hatton Corners was the story told in BB 54.  Thus, Robin (1) ties the creation of the Teen Titans directly to the adventure of Hatton Corners, (2) confirming that adventure as the origin of the Teen Titans, and (3) establishes that the Teen Titans exist prior to the story told in BB 60.  Any doubt that BB 54 is the origin of the Teen Titans is removed because that panel is footnoted with the editorial comment "See Brave and the Bold 54."  

Thus, the story you claim is the first Teen Titans appearance refers you back to BB 54 for the origin of the pre-existing team.  The CONTINUITY was clear from day one.  Again, you are elevating the trademark over the story continuity.  That's your choice.  I and many others choose differently.

When Robin says the team was formed "after Kid Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners" he's just referring to the old staid sequence of events of all group origin stories:  The members meet, have an adventure, THEN decide to form a team.  Just as with Avengers 1 and GS X-Men 94/X-Men 94.  

Pretending you don't understand the argument for BB 54 as the origin of the Teen Titans seems more than a wee bit disingenuous.  The more honest approach is just to admit that you agree the story of the Teen Titans begins in BB 54, but you view the emergence of the "Teen Titans" name and trademark as more significant.  

You are bad at knowing things. I've ALREADY SAID go ahead and call 54 the origin. I've ALREADY SAID I don't care about trademarks. Robin's remark doesn't "tie" or "confirm" anything except the sequence. "After" doesn't equal "because of." Look it up.

Also look up "straw man." I've ALREADY SAID the Titans existed before 60. Which is how they can appear...for the first time...in 60.

You can call 54 an origin, prototype, tryout or any other SUBJECTIVE term you want. It is OBJECTIVELY false to claim that the superhero team "The Teen Titans" appears in it.

[Bomber-Bob]

12 minutes ago, JTLarsen said:

You are bad at knowing things. I've ALREADY SAID go ahead and call 54 the origin. I've ALREADY SAID I don't care about trademarks. Robin's remark doesn't "tie" or "confirm" anything except the sequence. "After" doesn't equal "because of." Look it up.

Also look up "straw man." I've ALREADY SAID the Titans existed before 60. Which is how they can appear...for the first time...in 60.

You can call 54 an origin, prototype, tryout or any other SUBJECTIVE term you want. It is OBJECTIVELY false to claim that the superhero team "The Teen Titans" appears in it.

It's obvious you are not the owner of the BB 54 that sold for nearly 40K yesterday. I doubt if #60 would have sold at anywhere near that. I agree that #60 is harder to find in grade, I love the cover, it's a cool book, it is rising in value but it is simply not the origin no matter what JTLarsen says. In any case, why do you care so much ? You are acting way over the top on this. 

 

[sfcityduck]

1 hour ago, Bomber-Bob said:

It's obvious you are not the owner of the BB 54 that sold for nearly 40K yesterday. I doubt if #60 would have sold at anywhere near that. I agree that #60 is harder to find in grade, I love the cover, it's a cool book, it is rising in value but it is simply not the origin no matter what JTLarsen says. In any case, why do you care so much ? You are acting way over the top on this. 

 

The second highest graded BB 60 (9.4 I think) did sell yesterday, in the exact same auction, for a lot less.  But, still a good price.  TT collectors should be happy.

[lou_fine]

15 hours ago, TeddieMercede said:

$39,888 for the 9.8 54 - that's just crazy. 

As I stated in one of my other posts here, I guess only time will tell. 

If this is only one data point in a continuing price trajectory line as more uber HG copies come to market, then this is not so crazy of a price and might actually look like a bargain in years to come. 

If this amount was paid for the transitory value of the 9.8 label and the price is not supported as other similar uber HG copies eventually comes to market, then yeah this is a crazy price to have paid for the label. 

Edited September 13, 2017 by lou_fine

[Gotham Kid]

On 9/6/2017 at 3:15 PM, Gotham Kid said:

On 9/5/2017 at 7:08 PM, nearmint said:

You guys watching the BB54 CGC 9.8 in the CL auction?  Currently at $30,055.  I wonder what it will hammer at.

40K-45K

[Lazyboy]

7 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

No the right analogy is TTA 27.   Your analogy fails, except to show how ridiculous your reasoning is.  Shouting "SQUIRRELS!" won't work here.

TTA27 is not the right analogy. Individuals and teams are totally different.

7 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

The first time any member of the Teen Titans appears in BB 60 is on the top of the fifth page of the story.  Here's what happens:

Batman:  "What's this?  Calling the Teen Titans:

Robin:  Check, Batman!  Teen Titans is a group of junior crime-fighters I set up after Kid Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners!

Exactly! "Kid Flash, Aqualad and I (Robin) helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners." It doesn't say "The Teen Titans helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners" because they didn't exist in that issue.

If Robin set up the team after they helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners, but Robin setting up the team isn't shown in BB54, what does that mean? Obviously it means the team didn't exist until after BB54. The origin of the Titans is Robin setting up a team, not 3 teen sidekicks being independently summoned to Hatton Corners.

7 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

Of course, Hatton Corners was the story told in BB 54.  Thus, Robin (1) ties the creation of the Teen Titans directly to the adventure of Hatton Corners, (2) confirming that adventure as the origin of the Teen Titans,

Not really. In the story/continuity, the events of 54 inspired Robin to create a team. In real life, the success of the team-up in 54 led to the creation of a team, in an issue that came out a full year later.

7 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

 

and (3) establishes that the Teen Titans exist prior to the story told in BB 60.

Right, they were formed off-panel between issues 54 and 60. Breaking it down further, "between 54 and 60" means after 54 and before 60.

7 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

 Any doubt that BB 54 is the origin of the Teen Titans is removed because that panel is footnoted with the editorial comment "See Brave and the Bold 54."

That footnote refers to the events in Hatton Corners, which obviously took place in issue 54.

7 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

Thus, the story you claim is the first Teen Titans appearance refers you back to BB 54 for the origin of the pre-existing team.  The CONTINUITY was clear from day one.  Again, you are elevating the trademark over the story continuity.  That's your choice.  I and many others choose differently.

When Robin says the team was formed "after Kid Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners" he's just referring to the old staid sequence of events of all group origin stories:  The members meet, have an adventure, THEN decide to form a team.  Just as with Avengers 1 and GS X-Men 94/X-Men 94.  

Pretending you don't understand the argument for BB 54 as the origin of the Teen Titans seems more than a wee bit disingenuous.  The more honest approach is just to admit that you agree the story of the Teen Titans begins in BB 54, but you view the emergence of the "Teen Titans" name and trademark as more significant.  

BB54 is part of the origin of the Titans. It isn't the origin, but it led to the creation of the team both in the story and in real life.

In Avengers 1, a bunch of characters are independently brought together, team up, and before they go their separate ways at the end, they form a team.

In GSX1, Xavier (the creator of the X-Men) summons a bunch of mutants to help rescue the captured team. In X-Men 94, Xavier intends to keep all of them as X-Men, but some refuse to participate and he is left with a mix from the old team (yes, I know Cyclops is the only original member on the new team for a few issues before Jean rejoins) and those he recruited for help. They form a new version of an old team (the X-Men).

In BB54, a bunch of characters are independently brought together, team up, and that's it. The end.

[JLA Brad]

2 hours ago, Gotham Kid said:

So at $39,888, you ALMOST got it right.

So close...

[sfcityduck]

2 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

TTA27 is not the right analogy. Individuals and teams are totally different.

 

How so? 

This I got to hear.

How can you reconcile TTA 27 as the origin and first appearance of the Antman when he is neither called "Ant-Man" (instead he's the "Man in the Ant Hill") nor appears in costume or begins life as a superhero in that comic?

TTA 27 is exactly like BB 54.  First appearance and origin of a hero who is only named in his second appearance.  What is the difference?

[Aman619]

Well, onedifference I s that Hank Pam never appeared anywhere before TTA27.  It literally was Ant Man -- or the guy who would become Ant Man not just the guy in the ant hill -- VERY FIRST APPEARANCE ANYWHERE.

The Teen Titans issue is more difficult in that the three sidekicks existed for many years and issues before 54.  The only thing NEW was them fighting together as a BB team up issue. Same as the adjacent BB issues: existing characters thrown together for a one off adventure.  hank Pym was a throwaway story in a series of MaNY horror adventure stories in the pre Marvel ages. 

But yes, both led to ongoing poular series. 

[lou_fine]

10 hours ago, Gotham Kid said:

On 9/6/2017 at 6:15 AM, Gotham Kid said:

On 9/5/2017 at 10:08 AM, nearmint said:

You guys watching the BB54 CGC 9.8 in the CL auction?  Currently at $30,055.  I wonder what it will hammer at.

40K-45K

 

8 hours ago, JLA Brad said:

So at $39,888, you ALMOST got it right.

So close...

So close, and yet so far!!! 

So, with all of the talk on the GA boards about the CGC 9.4 Church copy of Seven Seas that sold for $25K in the CC auction today, I wonder which one of these 2 books will turn out to be a better bet in the long run. 

A Church GA Matt Baker classic GGA cover book at an unexpected 10X top of guide or a CGC 9.8 highest graded copy (for now??) of BB 54 with the first prototype appearance of the Teen Titans at more than 22X top of guide?  I know where I would place my bet if I had to. 

Edited September 14, 2017 by lou_fine

[Lazyboy]

10 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

How so? 

This I got to hear.

How can you reconcile TTA 27 as the origin and first appearance of the Antman when he is neither called "Ant-Man" (instead he's the "Man in the Ant Hill") nor appears in costume or begins life as a superhero in that comic?

TTA 27 is exactly like BB 54.  First appearance and origin of a hero who is only named in his second appearance.  What is the difference?

The better analogy is the second Ant-Man, Scott Lang. He (very) briefly appeared as a regular guy in Avengers 181 the month before he became Ant-Man in MP47. I've never read MP47, so I don't know exactly how he became Ant-Man, but in Avengers 181, like Pym in TTA27, he had no name, costume, or "hero" motivation. Unlike Pym, he had no powers.

The best part of the Pym analogy is that there was no indication that he would ever be seen again at the end of TTA27. Then again, most characters with powers go on to be super-heros (or super-villains) while the vast majority of team-ups do not go on to become real teams.

[sfcityduck]

2 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

 

The best part of the Pym analogy is that there was no indication that he would ever be seen again at the end of TTA27. Then again, most characters with powers go on to be super-heros (or super-villains) while the vast majority of team-ups do not go on to become real teams.

Not true for the time period of TTA 27.  Many guys with powers in those old books who didn't become superheros.  

[Point Five]

Hey guys,

Lifelong Titans fan here. I just noticed this thread the other week, and read it all the way through. Much enjoyed the spirited debate.   I'm way, way late to the party but wanted to throw in my two cents anyhow.

I would say Brave & Bold #54 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans, but I would frame the question differently than most have done in this thread: the concept of the Teen Titans as it has more or less endured for 5+ decades seems to me to be quite firmly in place in B&B 54. You may reasonably disagree, but personally I wouldn't attach much importance to what the characters say is the precise moment of formation of the team, or when the team name debuted, or what the writers or the editors or the company have said or written later. The story is in continuity and the Teen Titans idea is right there.

As an exercise,

What is the concept of the Avengers? More or less, superheroes from existing Marvel titles teaming up in one book to fight villains. That idea is there in Avengers #1, regardless of when the characters picked out their team name, when Cap joined, which members came and went, etc. And even if most of the characters look different, that idea of the Avengers is still there in 2017.

What is the concept of the X-Men? Again more or less, a group of mutants cast out by humans join forces and fight villains. That idea is right there in X-Men #1, regardless of when the characters picked out their team name, when other members joined, etc etc. The X-Men universe now looks completely different, but that idea that debuted in issue #1 is still there in 2017.

And you could do the same for FF #1 and B&B #28 and so forth. To me it doesn't matter when the characters went and said 'we are a team', or picked out their costumes or built an HQ or what have you. It's the first appearance of that core idea.

So what is the concept of the Teen Titans? I'd say the concept is, again broadly, junior characters from existing DC titles join forces to fight villains. That concept is present from B&B #54 and #60, through the Titans' title in the 1960s, through the reincarnation of the group as the New Teen Titans in the 1980s (the formula stretches out a bit more, as new characters are introduced, but even Beast Boy/Changeling is a tie back to the original concept, as were other recurring characters)... all the way to (amazingly) the Teen Titans Go cartoons running in 2017. And so on.

I see that concept in B&B #54 without a doubt, so for me at least that's the Teen Titans right there, no question. A group of junior DC heroes (even led by Robin, which is not entirely essential to the concept of the TT but a bit of a bonus in this context) working together to fight a villain, even if the villain is a complete turkey.

With that said, I do like B&B #60, I respect its importance and I'd like to own both books. I see why the 'first appearance' is a bit messy to some because of the logo situation and the dialogue between characters in #60, and it would ideally be otherwise. But "first Titans"? Clear as day to me.
 

 

[shadroch]

 I own a 54, so for me the case is settled. 

[JTLarsen]

6 hours ago, Point Five said:

Hey guys,

Lifelong Titans fan here. I just noticed this thread the other week, and read it all the way through. Much enjoyed the spirited debate.   I'm way, way late to the party but wanted to throw in my two cents anyhow.

I would say Brave & Bold #54 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans, but I would frame the question differently than most have done in this thread: the concept of the Teen Titans as it has more or less endured for 5+ decades seems to me to be quite firmly in place in B&B 54. You may reasonably disagree, but personally I wouldn't attach much importance to what the characters say is the precise moment of formation of the team, or when the team name debuted, or what the writers or the editors or the company have said or written later. The story is in continuity and the Teen Titans idea is right there.

As an exercise,

What is the concept of the Avengers? More or less, superheroes from existing Marvel titles teaming up in one book to fight villains. That idea is there in Avengers #1, regardless of when the characters picked out their team name, when Cap joined, which members came and went, etc. And even if most of the characters look different, that idea of the Avengers is still there in 2017.

What is the concept of the X-Men? Again more or less, a group of mutants cast out by humans join forces and fight villains. That idea is right there in X-Men #1, regardless of when the characters picked out their team name, when other members joined, etc etc. The X-Men universe now looks completely different, but that idea that debuted in issue #1 is still there in 2017.

And you could do the same for FF #1 and B&B #28 and so forth. To me it doesn't matter when the characters went and said 'we are a team', or picked out their costumes or built an HQ or what have you. It's the first appearance of that core idea.

So what is the concept of the Teen Titans? I'd say the concept is, again broadly, junior characters from existing DC titles join forces to fight villains. That concept is present from B&B #54 and #60, through the Titans' title in the 1960s, through the reincarnation of the group as the New Teen Titans in the 1980s (the formula stretches out a bit more, as new characters are introduced, but even Beast Boy/Changeling is a tie back to the original concept, as were other recurring characters)... all the way to (amazingly) the Teen Titans Go cartoons running in 2017. And so on.

I see that concept in B&B #54 without a doubt, so for me at least that's the Teen Titans right there, no question. A group of junior DC heroes (even led by Robin, which is not entirely essential to the concept of the TT but a bit of a bonus in this context) working together to fight a villain, even if the villain is a complete turkey.

With that said, I do like B&B #60, I respect its importance and I'd like to own both books. I see why the 'first appearance' is a bit messy to some because of the logo situation and the dialogue between characters in #60, and it would ideally be otherwise. But "first Titans"? Clear as day to me.
 

 

Eminently reasonable.

[Lazyboy]

6 hours ago, Point Five said:

I would say Brave & Bold #54 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans, but I would frame the question differently than most have done in this thread: the concept of the Teen Titans as it has more or less endured for 5+ decades seems to me to be quite firmly in place in B&B 54.

The concept of the JLA was firmly in place in All-Star Comics 3.

6 hours ago, Point Five said:

What is the concept of the Avengers? More or less, superheroes from existing Marvel titles teaming up in one book to fight villains. That idea is there in Avengers #1, regardless of when the characters picked out their team name, when Cap joined, which members came and went, etc. And even if most of the characters look different, that idea of the Avengers is still there in 2017.

Established superheroes join forces? Yeah, that's not too vague and doesn't perfectly describe many other teams and team-ups.

Without the actual formation of the team, that concept is far too general to have any real meaning.

6 hours ago, Point Five said:

What is the concept of the X-Men? Again more or less, a group of mutants cast out by humans join forces and fight villains. That idea is right there in X-Men #1, regardless of when the characters picked out their team name, when other members joined, etc etc. The X-Men universe now looks completely different, but that idea that debuted in issue #1 is still there in 2017.

The original concept of the X-Men was Xavier recruits young mutants and trains them in the use their powers and teamwork so they can protect the world from evil mutants.

6 hours ago, Point Five said:

even led by Robin

I don't even know what book you read. The characters mostly independently used their special abilities in BB54. There was certainly no leader of the team-up.

6 hours ago, Point Five said:

I see why the 'first appearance' is a bit messy to some because of the logo situation

What logo?

6 hours ago, Point Five said:

But "first Titans"? Clear as day to me.

[JTLarsen]

On 10/10/2014 at 11:15 AM, HighStakesComics said:

So is BB 54 or BB 60 the first Teen Titans? OPG and CGC list it as BB 54, however........

 

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Brave_and_the_Bold_Vol_1_60

 

DC seems to think otherwise. The name "Teen Titans" also never appears in BB 54. Is CGC right on this or is DC?

 

Totally forgot about all this. Doesn't matter to ME...the contents of 54 and 60 speak for themselves...but if your argument is that it matters what the company says, well...