1st Teen Titans 3 3

[sfcityduck]

 

Ill concede that as long as I ignore the cover, splash page and the fact that Wonder-Girl first appears in 60, that 54 then is the first appearance of the Teen Titans.

 

 

I'm glad we finally reached agreement that there is a difference between the first appearance of a trademark and name versus the first appearance of a character, that the lineup of the Teen Titans (like the Avengers) changed (remember Speedy?), and that BB 60 is the first appearance of Donna Troy and deserves respect despite not being the the first appearance or origin of the Teen Titans.

 

Again, the question is really simple: If you are a Teen Titans completest do you buy BB 54 or not? The answer is you have to.

[HighStakesComics]

Here are the questions in this debate along with their answers:

 

Are the Teen Titans ever mentioned in BB 54?-No

When are the Teen Titans first referenced?-Front cover BB 60

When the Teen Titans are first referenced what is their lineup?-Robin, Kid Flash, Wonder Girl, Aqualad

Are the Teen Titans ever referenced w/o Wonder Girl?-Page 5 of BB 60 where Robin tells Batman the team was formed not during, but after the events of BB 54

Cover of BB 60 aside, when is the first point of reference of the Teen Titans within the actual story-Page 1 of BB 60. Wonder Girl is included in the lineup.

What is the 1st App of Donna Troy as Wonder Girl?-BB 60

Would there ever be a Teen Titans in the first place w/o BB 54?-Yes. BB 60 clearly defines the team in perpetuity.

Would there ever be a Teen Titans w/o BB 60?-No. BB 60 is the beginning of the TT literary canon of stories that continues to this day, albeit with a new lineup. Nowhere has DC ever indicated that BB 54 is the first appearance of the TT. In fact, DC Wikia claims 60 is the 1st appearance. We are unsure of who controls this information. The Teen Titans, non-DC oriented Wikia site lists 54 as the 1st app.

 

My friends, there are some extremely intelligent members of this board. I've tried my best to stick to facts here rather than expressing my opinions. Ultimately you will have to decide how to spend the money you've allocated towards comics in your personal collection. I have done my best to express concerns here about how CGC and OPG view these books and point out that 54 is not the slam dunk many feel it is. There's an awful lot of grey area here. As for myself, I do own a couple copies of BB 60, but Id like to acquire a few more. They are awfully tough over 9.0 and this thread probably won't do me any favors. Whether you agree with me or not, I wish you all a good Sunday.

[Broke as a Joke]

The Teen Titans as a team go through so many members that the only thing important would be where the name debuts. Nobody cares about Aqualad and Kid Flash today, but they do care about the Teen Titans. It's a revolving door, which makes 60 the book to have.

 

Maybe it has taken 40+ years for that to be determined...

[sfcityduck]

Are the Teen Titans ever mentioned in BB 54? No one disputes that the "Teen Titans" trademark and name are first used in BB 60.

 

When are the Teen Titans first referenced? The "Teen Titans" trademark and name is first used on the cover of BB 60 and repeated on the splash page.

 

When the Teen Titans are first referenced what is their lineup? Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad. Robin specifically states on p. 5 of BB 60 that the Teen Titans are formed because of the adventure in BB 54. The formation of the team precedes BB 60 and Wonder Girl's first adventure with the team is not until BB 60. Is she an "original member"? Apparently not, because she missed out on the origin adventure.

 

Are the Teen Titans ever referenced w/o Wonder Girl? Yes. Page 5 of BB 60 clearly references that the team was formed as a result of the adventure in BB 54.

 

Cover of BB 60 aside, when is the first point of reference of the Teen Titans within the actual story? Page 5. The splash page is not part of the story. It is one of those "movie poster" or story preview style splash pages. It is not part of the narrative.

 

What is the 1st App of Donna Troy as Wonder Girl? BB 60.

 

Would there ever be a Teen Titans in the first place w/o BB 54? Obviously not. As a business matter, the concept was created for BB 54. If that comic was not a success, BB 60 never happens. Moreover, as a matter of story continuity, Robin states that the team was created because of the adventure in BB 54. BB 54 is the origin of the team.

 

Would there ever be a Teen Titans w/o BB 60? Who knows. I'm not in the business of guessing about alternative histories and whether DC would have continued the series in Showcase, it's own title, or what. What matters is what happened, and what happened is that the team whose origin and creation occurred in BB 54 got its iconic name in BB 60. Just like with many other instances in comics, e.g. TTA 27.

 

In the end, if you are a Teen Titans completest, you have to have BB 54. It is the origin of the team. BB 60 assumes the team's pre-existence. All BB 60 adds is a name and new member, but not an origin story. Instead of stockpiling more and more BB 60s and trying to ramp up their price by taking positions contrary to the official DC position, story continuity, and the position of dealers for 40 years, I'd suggest you start buying some BB 54s so you can complete your Teen Titans collection.

[Zonker]

What makes this interesting (or maddening, depending upon your point of view) is the first meeting of the Teen Titans apparently occurs off-camera, at least during the Silver Age run. By B&B 60, the team is already established, although unknown to Batman apparently. As early as Teen Titans #4, there is an "Untold Tale" from the Teen Titans casebook featuring Speedy tagging along with the other four. Since TT #4 explicitly references events from the recent 1964 Olympic Games, later indexers have placed this untold story as occuring between B&B 54 and B&B 60, the latter having been published in 1965.

 

Then in the final issue of the Bronze Age revival of the Teen Titans #53 (1978), there is a previously untold origin of the TT, and it also occurs between B&B 54 and B&B 60. Note the editorial footnote on the 3rd panel-- this seems to summarize DC's position, at least as of 1978.

[TeddieMercede]

Welp. Guess DC needs to change their position to align with Overstreet and Comic Dealers.

[sfcityduck]

Zonker,

 

That's a great addition to the debate! In 1973, they call BB 54 a Teen Titans adventure. In 1978, they retcon a new origin and say that BB 54 was not a team-up "as the Teen Titans." In 2003, they call BB 54 a Teen Titans adventure in the DC Archive. And I have no doubt that there are a lot of other references to BB 54 in Teen Titans comics.

 

Ultimately, I have to agree it is maddening, but I just can't see how you can have a complete collection of Teen Titans comics without starting with BB 54. While I agree that in BB 54 the teen sidekicks teaming up don't call themselves the "Teen Titans," it is clear that adventure is the origin of the team which ultimately, between BB 54 and BB 60, decides to call itself by that name. So, for me, it just gets down to whether you collect trademarks or comic stories. I collect comic stories, so what matters to me is the story continuity, and BB 54 is clearly a huge part of the Teen Titans canon.

[JTLarsen]

Totally agree B&B 54 is a big part of the Teen Titans canon. I'd even stipulate essential. It's just not the first appearance. As the hypothetical that I made up (if there are non-made up hypotheticals, I'd like to hear them) makes clear (that's what hypotheticals are for, by the way, to illuminate the nature of the non-hypothetical), Teen Titans exists as a thing in and after B&B 60 but at no point beforehand. And despite the self-serving semantic sliding that's been posited here, Robin doesn't say in B&B 60 that they created the team BECAUSE of B&B 54, he says they created the team AFTER B&B 54. Let's not conflate sequence with causality.

 

So, B&B 54: First team-up of Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad? Sure. Prototype for the Teen Titans? Absolutely. Origin of the Teen Titans? Maybe as of B&B 60, but not consistently afterward and I'm guessing not in current continuity. First appearance of the Teen Titans? Nope.

 

And as for 40 years of Overstreet, etc., well, forty years of OAW 81 as Sgt. Rock's first appearance didn't stop people from eventually recognizing that OAW 83 was his real first appearance. I suspect the same kind of tide is turning now for Teen Titans, especially that people can easily find reprints of B&B 54 and 60 to see what actually transpires inside them.

[sfcityduck]

 

And as for 40 years of Overstreet, etc., well, forty years of OAW 81 as Sgt. Rock's first appearance didn't stop people from eventually recognizing that OAW 83 was his real first appearance. I suspect the same kind of tide is turning now for Teen Titans, especially that people can easily find reprints of B&B 54 and 60 to see what actually transpires inside them.

 

Based on the dealer listings I see, that's not happening. To the contrary, BB 54 is consistently listed as the first TT appearance by dealers. And the easiest place to get a BB 54 reprint is the Teen Titans Archives. so that's unlikely to change opinions.

 

Another part of the back story folks are missing here is that BB 54 was conceptualized by the editor and writer as the beginning of a "junior Justice League" group. And that's clearly the way it played out in real time, with the group getting its origin in BB 54, its name in BB 60, and another try-out in Showcase before being handed its own series. Hard for me to view the comment in the retcon in the last issue of the 1978 failed revival as sufficient to rewrite the history of 1964, especially when DC has called BB 54 a Teen Titans story both before (1973 reprint) and after (2003 DC Archives).

 

Fun topic to discuss, but to really do it justice I'd like to see every reference to BB 54, in the Teen Titans canon. Someday I'm going to have to go back and read the Speedy story from TT 4 and see if there are any BB 54 references in NTT.

[JTLarsen]

 

And as for 40 years of Overstreet, etc., well, forty years of OAW 81 as Sgt. Rock's first appearance didn't stop people from eventually recognizing that OAW 83 was his real first appearance. I suspect the same kind of tide is turning now for Teen Titans, especially that people can easily find reprints of B&B 54 and 60 to see what actually transpires inside them.

 

Based on the dealer listings I see, that's not happening.

 

Which doesn't mean it's not happening or won't. I'm just pointing out that forty years of Overstreet and dealer listings didn't save OAW 81 and therefore might not save B&B 54.

[HighStakesComics]

What's the bigger book? Luke Cage 48 or Power Man & Iron Fist 50? Much better comp than TTA 27 BTW, in my humble opinion.

 

Also, no footnotes in TT #4.

 

No one is debating BB 54 is a critical book for TT collectors, but how much longer will you defend 54 is the first appearance, Duck? Every footnote, including the one you're in love with on page #5 of #60 very clearly states the team is formed "after the events" of #54. This is not an opinion. It's a fact.

 

 

[DavidTheDavid]

That you guys are making up absurd hypotheticals to try and bolster your position speaks volumes.

 

Again this is really really simple.

 

* You guys are right that the trademark and name "Teem Titans" first appeared in BB 60.

 

* But, the first time that team of DC teen sidekicks got together, and their official origin, occurred in BB 54 ... according to BB 60 itself and DC then and subsequently.

 

In short, you are guys are having to make up these foolish hypotheticals because you are swimming upstream against the tide of the story continuity of the Teen Titans, the official DC position, and the consensus of comic dealers for the past 40+ years.

I'm curious about the trademark thing. Do we know an actual trademark date? How did comic publishers handle trademarking at that time?

[sfcityduck]

What's the bigger book? Luke Cage 48 or Power Man & Iron Fist 50? Much better comp than TTA 27 BTW, in my humble opinion.

 

Also, no footnotes in TT #4.

 

No one is debating BB 54 is a critical book for TT collectors, but how much longer will you defend 54 is the first appearance, Duck? Every footnote, including the one you're in love with on page #5 of #60 very clearly states the team is formed "after the events" of #54. This is not an opinion. It's a fact.

 

 

Which is why BB 54 is the origin of the team. The team in Avengers was formed only after the battle in Avengers 1. Nonetheless, as a matter of story continuity, the first Avengers adventure is not Avengers No. 2, where they ride into battle as "the Avengers," but the battle in Avengers No. 1 which inspires them to form the team.

 

It's pretty typical of these type of group formations that the heroes come together, have an adventure, and after the battle form a team. That's what happened with TT. Just like the Avengers. It's just that they didn't get their trademarked name until their second appearance, not their first.

 

Again, if you collect trademarks, BB 60 is your book. If you want the complete Teen Titans story, BB 54 is your book.

[AGGIEZ]

What's the bigger book? Luke Cage 48 or Power Man & Iron Fist 50?

 

What's going on in those 2 books?

[sfcityduck]

IH 181 is clearly the 1st app. IH 180 does not pass the ASM 299 test. I am convinced ASM 299 is the lengthiest cameo in the history of comics, but it is still a cameo. Any book that features a lengthier appearance with more dialogue (See Strange Tales 180 & Forever People 1) should be considered a full appearance. IH 180 does not meet that criteria.

 

I hate to change topics, but I don't understand this assertion either. How is this not the first appearance of Wolverine?:

 

 

* It is in story;

* It features the character in all his glory, speaking even; and

* It includes his trademarked name and costume.

 

Now, I agree that it is not a better book than 181 which is a full story and cover. But, I don't understand why "cameo" is inconsistent with "first appearance." This isn't an ad, it's a plot development. If you don't get 180, you don't have the first appearance of Wolverine. To argue otherwise seems to confuse the concepts of "first appearance" with "first story" or even, if you want to confuse people with subjective terms, "first full appearance" (whatever that means). But, as a "first appearance," there's no doubt that 180 qualifies -- and $660,000 in competitive bidding evidences that point.

 

 

Edited October 19, 2014 by sfcityduck

[HighStakesComics]

What's the bigger book? Luke Cage 48 or Power Man & Iron Fist 50? Much better comp than TTA 27 BTW, in my humble opinion.

 

Also, no footnotes in TT #4.

 

No one is debating BB 54 is a critical book for TT collectors, but how much longer will you defend 54 is the first appearance, Duck? Every footnote, including the one you're in love with on page #5 of #60 very clearly states the team is formed "after the events" of #54. This is not an opinion. It's a fact.

 

 

Which is why BB 54 is the origin of the team. The team in Avengers was formed only after the battle in Avengers 1. Nonetheless, as a matter of story continuity, the first Avengers adventure is not Avengers No. 2, where they ride into battle as "the Avengers," but the battle in Avengers No. 1 which inspires them to form the team.

 

It's pretty typical of these type of group formations that the heroes come together, have an adventure, and after the battle form a team. That's what happened with TT. Just like the Avengers. It's just that they didn't get their trademarked name until their second appearance, not their first.

 

Again, if you collect trademarks, BB 60 is your book. If you want the complete Teen Titans story, BB 54 is your book.

 

The trademark argument is a red herring, as is the IH 180. The topic of our little debate is what is the first appearance of the Teen Titans? All these parlor tricks cannot repress the truth. The argument for the BB 54 is the one that requires you to ignore the footnotes, covers, splash pages, 1st appearances of other team ups, Wonder Girl, and DC Wikia.

[Silver]

Is Duck the only one defending the 54?

[Lazyboy]

IH 181 is clearly the 1st app. IH 180 does not pass the ASM 299 test. I am convinced ASM 299 is the lengthiest cameo in the history of comics, but it is still a cameo. Any book that features a lengthier appearance with more dialogue (See Strange Tales 180 & Forever People 1) should be considered a full appearance. IH 180 does not meet that criteria.

 

I hate to change topics, but I don't understand this assertion either. How is this not the first appearance of Wolverine?:

 

 

* It is in story;

* It features the character in all his glory, speaking even; and

* It includes his trademarked name and costume.

 

Now, I agree that it is not a better book than 181 which is a full story and cover. But, I don't understand why "cameo" is inconsistent with "first appearance." This isn't an ad, it's a plot development. If you don't get 180, you don't have the first appearance of Wolverine. To argue otherwise seems to confuse the concepts of "first appearance" with "first story" or even, if you want to confuse people with subjective terms, "first full appearance" (whatever that means). But, as a "first appearance," there's no doubt that 180 qualifies -- and $660,000 in competitive bidding evidences that point.

 

 

Yeah, but it's a plot development which occurs at the perfect time to be obvious in its intentions to be little more than an ad for the next issue.

 

Referencing the OA sale? Give me a break. I thought you just said the stories are what is important. As a single page devoid of context, it is the first time Wolverine appears. So what?

 

BB 54 is the inspiration for the formation of the Teen Titans, both at DC (the company) and in DC (continuity). I don't think origin is quite the right word.

[sfcityduck]

The argument for the BB 54 is the one that requires you to ignore the footnotes, covers, splash pages, 1st appearances of other team ups, Wonder Girl, and DC Wikia.

 

Every time you mention the DC Wikia (not run by DC), I am embarrassed for you. Especially, since that site which is contradicts DC's official position as reflected in the first reprinting of BB 54 (labeling it a Teen Titans story) and the official DC Teen Titans Archive.

 

The rest of your statement above is gibberish and a strawman. The argument for BB 54 requires you to read and rely upon the content BB 60, most notably the exchange between Batman and Robin on page 5 and footnoted citation to BB 54 therein. The argument for BB 54 is in now way contradicted by the cover or splash of BB 60, neither of which states that it is the "first appearance" of the group called therein as the "Teen Titans." (I'm not disputing its the first use of the trademarked name for that group.) The argument for BB 54 being the first adventure of the Teen Titans is actually the same as the argument for Avengers 1 being the first adventure of the Avengers -- an argument you ignore.

 

You can keep fighting the fight, but I think logic, history, and DC are against you on this one.

 

P.S. Please don't mention the D.C. Wikia again. The front page of the wikia makes clear that "This is the world's largest DC Comics encyclopedia that anyone can edit, hosted by wikia." It is a Wiki. Not a DC corporate site.

[sfcityduck]

IH 181 is clearly the 1st app. IH 180 does not pass the ASM 299 test. I am convinced ASM 299 is the lengthiest cameo in the history of comics, but it is still a cameo. Any book that features a lengthier appearance with more dialogue (See Strange Tales 180 & Forever People 1) should be considered a full appearance. IH 180 does not meet that criteria.

 

I hate to change topics, but I don't understand this assertion either. How is this not the first appearance of Wolverine?:

 

 

* It is in story;

* It features the character in all his glory, speaking even; and

* It includes his trademarked name and costume.

 

Now, I agree that it is not a better book than 181 which is a full story and cover. But, I don't understand why "cameo" is inconsistent with "first appearance." This isn't an ad, it's a plot development. If you don't get 180, you don't have the first appearance of Wolverine. To argue otherwise seems to confuse the concepts of "first appearance" with "first story" or even, if you want to confuse people with subjective terms, "first full appearance" (whatever that means). But, as a "first appearance," there's no doubt that 180 qualifies -- and $660,000 in competitive bidding evidences that point.

 

 

Yeah, but it's a plot development which occurs at the perfect time to be obvious in its intentions to be little more than an ad for the next issue.

 

Referencing the OA sale? Give me a break. I thought you just said the stories are what is important. As a single page devoid of context, it is the first time Wolverine appears. So what?

 

The "so what" is that 180 "is the first time Wolverine appears." That makes the book his first appearance. That does not make the book more desirable than 181, IMHO.

 

I do think the stories are important, and the first appearance of Wolverine is in story and leads directly to the story in the next issue. It is not an ad piece. There were ads in other Marvel comics for 181, but those aren't first appearances IMHO.

 

I reference the OA sale because that reflects what the market thinks about that page: E.g. that it is incredibly desirable because it is the first appearance of Wolverine. I only do that because Blazing is arguing that the marketplace should re-evaluate BB 60. Apparently, his concern is the marketplace, so I'm giving him an argument using what he values. Me, I think it is obvious that it is a "first appearance" because there he is in the story.