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The official J Scott Campbell Appreciation/Discussion Thread
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4,765 posts in this topic

23 minutes ago, Samoyed Sabaka said:

I find this really interesting, but just from reading the last few posts (didn't get a chance to really read if anything was posted earlier), what exactly was the turnoff / drawbacks from doing the S/S at the booth?  Going forward, how do you plan on collecting these exclusives?

The genesis of the discussion began here, way back on page 181.  In short, all books at SDCC were pre-signed, but there is a $30 "CGC signing fee" if you choose to submit the book for grading.  So if two customers buy the same book pre-signed, customer A will get it for $50 if they just want a raw copy, whereas customer B will have to pay $80 simply because they wish to have it slabbed by a 3rd party.  The argument is that the product is the same and that JSC shouldn't care or have a say as to what the customer wishes to do with the product after the sale.

Additionally, there is the potential scenario where a book is sold unsigned/signed via his online store.  Typically, the signed book will cost $20 more than the unsigned book.  Let's say someone buys an unsigned book online for $20.  Let's also say they take it to the next con to get signed.  They pay the $30 CGC fee and end up paying $50 for a signed book to have it slabbed.  Let's also say that JSC has signed copies of the same book at his booth, but it's $40 (as all pre-signed books have a premium over their unsigned counterparts).  If someone were to buy the pre-signed book at the convention and wished to have it slabbed, then they would end up paying the $30 CGC signing fee on top of it ending up with a $70 book.  Both books are the same, but the poor sap who bought the pre-signed book at the convention ends up paying an extra $20.

All in all, I had the option to pass on the books, but in the moment decided to press forward for two reasons.  One, I like the covers and I wanted the virgin copies.  Two, I had a facilitator helping me who was likely very busy and I didn't feel like wasting their time while I mulled it over, especially since I expected the books to sell pretty quickly.  The whole experience just didn't sit well with me and since then I've decided my money is better spent elsewhere.  I have ordered two sets since (unsigned copies of the X-Men set and the Captain Marvel set), but I really don't care about JSC exclusives as much as I did pre-SDCC.  And I definitely won't be getting any signed books from him in the future.

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24 minutes ago, ExNihilo said:

The genesis of the discussion began here, way back on page 181.  In short, all books at SDCC were pre-signed, but there is a $30 "CGC signing fee" if you choose to submit the book for grading.  So if two customers buy the same book pre-signed, customer A will get it for $50 if they just want a raw copy, whereas customer B will have to pay $80 simply because they wish to have it slabbed by a 3rd party.  The argument is that the product is the same and that JSC shouldn't care or have a say as to what the customer wishes to do with the product after the sale.

Additionally, there is the potential scenario where a book is sold unsigned/signed via his online store.  Typically, the signed book will cost $20 more than the unsigned book.  Let's say someone buys an unsigned book online for $20.  Let's also say they take it to the next con to get signed.  They pay the $30 CGC fee and end up paying $50 for a signed book to have it slabbed.  Let's also say that JSC has signed copies of the same book at his booth, but it's $40 (as all pre-signed books have a premium over their unsigned counterparts).  If someone were to buy the pre-signed book at the convention and wished to have it slabbed, then they would end up paying the $30 CGC signing fee on top of it ending up with a $70 book.  Both books are the same, but the poor sap who bought the pre-signed book at the convention ends up paying an extra $20.

All in all, I had the option to pass on the books, but in the moment decided to press forward for two reasons.  One, I like the covers and I wanted the virgin copies.  Two, I had a facilitator helping me who was likely very busy and I didn't feel like wasting their time while I mulled it over, especially since I expected the books to sell pretty quickly.  The whole experience just didn't sit well with me and since then I've decided my money is better spent elsewhere.  I have ordered two sets since (unsigned copies of the X-Men set and the Captain Marvel set), but I really don't care about JSC exclusives as much as I did pre-SDCC.  And I definitely won't be getting any signed books from him in the future.

Well this is what I thought...but I do believe that I tried to mention it to several people, ie...

I have some Campbell raw books signed some with COA some not, but if I were to bring them to a con, I'd still have to pay the $30 "sin" tax to get them graded? :sorry:

This is what I thought but hadn't done it.... no wonder his unsigned copies sell out so quickly....

Tsk...tsk...

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9 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

Well this is what I thought...but I do believe that I tried to mention it to several people, ie...

I have some Campbell raw books signed some with COA some not, but if I were to bring them to a con, I'd still have to pay the $30 "sin" tax to get them graded? :sorry:

This is what I thought but hadn't done it.... no wonder his unsigned copies sell out so quickly....

Tsk...tsk...

Well, in that situation, I think they'd be ineligible for a yellow label since the chain of witnesses would have been broken.

But yes, I think this is why unsigned copies sell out so quickly.

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9 minutes ago, ExNihilo said:

Well, in that situation, I think they'd be ineligible for a yellow label since the chain of witnesses would have been broken.

But yes, I think this is why unsigned copies sell out so quickly.

If cgc is attending the con it is possible... provided you go to them for a form, grab a witness, have them have Campbell sign the form that it is his signature on the raw copy... = yellow label lol

Not worth the trouble, and I guess his $30 sin tax makes since (maybe) more since for my situation, since he'd be signing a form...

Edited by ADAMANTIUM
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10 minutes ago, ExNihilo said:
12 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

Not worth the trouble, and I guess his $30 sin tax makes since (maybe) more since for my situation, since he'd be signing a form...

2 sigs for the price of 1!  :roflmao:

Lol

And glad you understood my text... I said "since" like I can't walk and chew gum at the same time  :foryou:

 

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On 1/4/2019 at 5:14 PM, ExNihilo said:

The genesis of the discussion began here, way back on page 181.  In short, all books at SDCC were pre-signed, but there is a $30 "CGC signing fee" if you choose to submit the book for grading.  So if two customers buy the same book pre-signed, customer A will get it for $50 if they just want a raw copy, whereas customer B will have to pay $80 simply because they wish to have it slabbed by a 3rd party.  The argument is that the product is the same and that JSC shouldn't care or have a say as to what the customer wishes to do with the product after the sale.

Additionally, there is the potential scenario where a book is sold unsigned/signed via his online store.  Typically, the signed book will cost $20 more than the unsigned book.  Let's say someone buys an unsigned book online for $20.  Let's also say they take it to the next con to get signed.  They pay the $30 CGC fee and end up paying $50 for a signed book to have it slabbed.  Let's also say that JSC has signed copies of the same book at his booth, but it's $40 (as all pre-signed books have a premium over their unsigned counterparts).  If someone were to buy the pre-signed book at the convention and wished to have it slabbed, then they would end up paying the $30 CGC signing fee on top of it ending up with a $70 book.  Both books are the same, but the poor sap who bought the pre-signed book at the convention ends up paying an extra $20.

All in all, I had the option to pass on the books, but in the moment decided to press forward for two reasons.  One, I like the covers and I wanted the virgin copies.  Two, I had a facilitator helping me who was likely very busy and I didn't feel like wasting their time while I mulled it over, especially since I expected the books to sell pretty quickly.  The whole experience just didn't sit well with me and since then I've decided my money is better spent elsewhere.  I have ordered two sets since (unsigned copies of the X-Men set and the Captain Marvel set), but I really don't care about JSC exclusives as much as I did pre-SDCC.  And I definitely won't be getting any signed books from him in the future.

My experience as well.  Only reason I went ahead is I wanted the covers, and had cancelled my unsigned trade dress set due to ASM 800 variant fatigue.  I prefer to get JSC items unsigned and have bought through his store since, but will unlikely buy pre-signed unless it’s something I absolutely want.  

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On 1/4/2019 at 6:14 PM, ExNihilo said:

All in all, I had the option to pass on the books, but in the moment decided to press forward for two reasons.  One, I like the covers and I wanted the virgin copies.  Two, I had a facilitator helping me who was likely very busy and I didn't feel like wasting their time while I mulled it over, especially since I expected the books to sell pretty quickly.  The whole experience just didn't sit well with me and since then I've decided my money is better spent elsewhere.  I have ordered two sets since (unsigned copies of the X-Men set and the Captain Marvel set), but I really don't care about JSC exclusives as much as I did pre-SDCC.  And I definitely won't be getting any signed books from him in the future.

 I’ve been a big fan for a while but never have bought the “premium”(signed) stuff.

I appreciate the time and effort you guys have put into this and explaining the process to understand. Sorry this has affected some of the joy you get from collecting...

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On 1/4/2019 at 3:14 PM, ExNihilo said:

The genesis of the discussion began here, way back on page 181.  In short, all books at SDCC were pre-signed, but there is a $30 "CGC signing fee" if you choose to submit the book for grading.  So if two customers buy the same book pre-signed, customer A will get it for $50 if they just want a raw copy, whereas customer B will have to pay $80 simply because they wish to have it slabbed by a 3rd party.  The argument is that the product is the same and that JSC shouldn't care or have a say as to what the customer wishes to do with the product after the sale.

Additionally, there is the potential scenario where a book is sold unsigned/signed via his online store.  Typically, the signed book will cost $20 more than the unsigned book.  Let's say someone buys an unsigned book online for $20.  Let's also say they take it to the next con to get signed.  They pay the $30 CGC fee and end up paying $50 for a signed book to have it slabbed.  Let's also say that JSC has signed copies of the same book at his booth, but it's $40 (as all pre-signed books have a premium over their unsigned counterparts).  If someone were to buy the pre-signed book at the convention and wished to have it slabbed, then they would end up paying the $30 CGC signing fee on top of it ending up with a $70 book.  Both books are the same, but the poor sap who bought the pre-signed book at the convention ends up paying an extra $20.

All in all, I had the option to pass on the books, but in the moment decided to press forward for two reasons.  One, I like the covers and I wanted the virgin copies.  Two, I had a facilitator helping me who was likely very busy and I didn't feel like wasting their time while I mulled it over, especially since I expected the books to sell pretty quickly.  The whole experience just didn't sit well with me and since then I've decided my money is better spent elsewhere.  I have ordered two sets since (unsigned copies of the X-Men set and the Captain Marvel set), but I really don't care about JSC exclusives as much as I did pre-SDCC.  And I definitely won't be getting any signed books from him in the future.

And the reason this situation exists is because Campbell has been convinced...quite inaccurately...by frauds (and they know who they are...some of them are reading this right now) who lie about the value of his signature, and misrepresent what the Sig Series actually is and does. 

"Oh, anyone doing Sig Series is making money off of your signature, and you DESERVE a cut of that." And, of course, creators have come to believe that people who do SS aren't "actually" fans, and are just doing it for the fat stacks of $$$.

How do I know this? Because J. Scott Campbell told me so, to my face, in November of 2016.

And why do people do this...? Why do they lie to creators like this?

Self-interest.

You see, they THEN tell these creators that they can "handle" their signings, and, while providing SOME legitimate service, they nevertheless use the lie to funnel some of that fee TO THEMSELVES, while their lackeys treat PAYING CUSTOMERS rudely and threaten to use their limited power to cut anyone off who dares so much as QUESTION their "program."

And then they have the NERVE to openly complain about those who "lie to creators" about what people intend to do with their own property...a lie they facilitated (see what I did there?) by encouraging creators to demand to know what is none of their business in the first place. Is it right to lie to creators? Of course not. But is it right for creators to ask people what they intend to do with their property? Of course not! If creators didn't ask things that are none of their business in the first place, there would have been no incentive for people to lie in the first place. Again: lying, bad. But creating the incentive to lie? Just as bad.

God only knows why CGC...an ENTIRELY UNRELATED THIRD PARTY THAT HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH CREATORS...allows this House of Cards to exist in the first place. But, they have decided, for reasons entirely their own, that they "want to keep creators happy", and they think that kowtowing to creator demands...demands based on false information about the program...is the way to go, not realizing that they are losing a lot more in the long run than they are gaining.

What they SHOULD have done was say, from the start, "we're a third party entity; whatever issues you have are between you and your customers. All we do is grade comic books."

And that would have been that. Instead, we have the cluster that we have today, where this person charges that fee for that signature if it goes to this entity, but a different fee if it goes to that entity (none of which is any business of the creator in the first place), and this creator who won't sign "for CGC" this weekend, but can be coerced (with $$$$, of course) into signing "for CGC" the next weekend, and wait, it's $40 for his sig now? I thought it was $30! Oh, that was last week...?

...and everyone, mafia-style, gets their "cut", on the off-chance that someone might dare actually SELL a Sig Series book and (GASP!!) make some money off the deal.

Nevermind, of course, that 90-99% of the value of every book is in 1. its status (New Mutants #98 or #92?) and 2. its condition. 

Campbell signing a piece of toilet paper doesn't make that toilet paper worth $$$.

Campbell signing a 9.2 copy of Gen 13 limited series #4 does not make that slab worth $$$.

Campbell signing a 9.8 copy of Danger Girl #2 Smoking Gun? Ok, now we're starting to see an effect...which Campbell has effectively neutralized by charging his punitive tax.

And guess what happens because of that...?

BOOKS DON'T GET SUBMITTED.

Why not? Because it's frequently cheaper to buy the books already SSd from past signings...and guess what I get with that?

Right: books already in the grade that I want.

I have literal long boxes of books I would LOVE to get signed and slabbed...but won't, and haven't, for years and years and years now...because I won't pay more than I think it's worth. CGC doesn't make a dime on those books while they sit there. I'm not subbing them unless they get signed. So, they sit. And sit. And sit.

And sit.

Waiting for the opportunity that may never come. 

And now Bob Wiacek tells me he "has" to charge me $10...$10!!...for his signature if it's "for CGC", on my 9.6 X-Men vs. Alpha Flight #2 which isn't worth $10 even in the slab. Love you, Bob, but your signature isn't worth $10. 

And I'll find the copies, that some other sucker paid the punishment tax for, and it will already be graded, and I will pay less than it costs to get done, and I won't have to worry about the book not coming back in the grade I want. 

And CGC doesn't make money. And creators create ill-will with their actual, honest-to-God, real life fans. And collectors can't collect the way they'd like, because they are forced out of the market by punitive, discriminatory charges. And all because of a simple lie: "People who do Sig Series are making FAT STACKS OF $$$$ off you! You gotta get some of that, brah!"

:facepalm:

Edited by RockMyAmadeus
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12 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Nevermind, of course, that 90-99% of the value of every book is in 1. its status (New Mutants #98 or #92?) and 2. its condition. 

Don't forget that for moderns, especially the variant cover market, much of the value is derived by the age of the book.  A variant cover fresh off the presses today commands a premium because of its freshness, with speculators and addicts both keeping prices inflated.  There is a "Fear of Missing Out" mentality on all of these books.  But, wait 30 days and, in the majority of cases, prices fall precipitously.

12 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

And the reason this situation exists is because Campbell has been convinced...quite inaccurately...by frauds (and they know who they are...some of them are reading this right now) who lie about the value of his signature, and misrepresent what the Sig Series actually is and does.  

"Oh, anyone doing Sig Series is making money off of your signature, and you DESERVE a cut of that." And, of course, creators have come to believe that people who do SS aren't "actually" fans, and are just doing it for the fat stacks of $$$.

How do I know this? Because J. Scott Campbell told me so, to my face, in November of 2016.

I find this interesting, as I believe that there is truth to this at least with the initial onset of a creator charging a fee.  However, creators aren't dumb, and I'm sure many of them see (and maybe even track) the resale numbers on their own books.  The math is easy, and I'm sure many of the creators KNOW that their signature doesn't add the same value to the book that they are charging for CGC submissions.  I would be VERY surprised if in the last two years and two months, Campbell hasn't drawn this same conclusion (not to pick on him here, but you listed a specific date).

So why continue down this path?  Why continue to gouge fans with signature fees?  Well, it's because they can!  And, at some point the creator has made the decision that it feeds their own self-interest to charge more, as it lines their pockets with fans that are unable to help themselves and say no to the abuse.  For as many fans out there like you and me who refuse to pay exorbitant signing fees, there are hundreds of fans that are either ignorant to the process or still willing to pony up the extra cash.

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1 hour ago, masterlogan2000 said:
14 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Nevermind, of course, that 90-99% of the value of every book is in 1. its status (New Mutants #98 or #92?) and 2. its condition. 

Don't forget that for moderns, especially the variant cover market, much of the value is derived by the age of the book.  A variant cover fresh off the presses today commands a premium because of its freshness, with speculators and addicts both keeping prices inflated.  There is a "Fear of Missing Out" mentality on all of these books.  But, wait 30 days and, in the majority of cases, prices fall precipitously.

Ok, but how is that different from a book's status (that is, "what it is")...? 
 

1 hour ago, masterlogan2000 said:

I find this interesting, as I believe that there is truth to this at least with the initial onset of a creator charging a fee.  However, creators aren't dumb, and I'm sure many of them see (and maybe even track) the resale numbers on their own books.  The math is easy, and I'm sure many of the creators KNOW that their signature doesn't add the same value to the book that they are charging for CGC submissions.  I would be VERY surprised if in the last two years and two months, Campbell hasn't drawn this same conclusion (not to pick on him here, but you listed a specific date).

So why continue down this path?  Why continue to gouge fans with signature fees?  Well, it's because they can!  And, at some point the creator has made the decision that it feeds their own self-interest to charge more, as it lines their pockets with fans that are unable to help themselves and say no to the abuse.  For as many fans out there like you and me who refuse to pay exorbitant signing fees, there are hundreds of fans that are either ignorant to the process or still willing to pony up the extra cash.

Having been intimately involved, to the tune of thousands upon thousands of books, over the last 10 11 years with the SS program, I can confidently say that most creators really don't have any clue how the collector market works. Many of them think that collectors are very weird, and a good chunk of those look on collectors with scorn and contempt.

"Comics are for reading, not taking right off the press, and hiding them away, never to be touched" they think to themselves (and frequently say out loud.)

They don't understand the collector mentality, and the majority of them aren't collectors themselves. They think collectors are stupid to pay $X,XXX for a comic, when they can get the same art and story in a reprint for a couple bucks. 

So, when Sig Series (and slabbing in general) came along, it just fed into that already extant contempt by creators for collectors. Creators automatically, knee-jerk, assume that those who bring them rags to sign have read them and loved them, and are the REAL fans, while those who bring them beautiful copies to sign, window bagged and all, are scummy profiteers, who have never read a comic in their lives. This is an erroneous assumption, but it's one creators still make all the time.

Marv Wolfman doesn't understand why anyone would slab a comic. Neither does Jim Starlin. And, because no one bothers to educate them about it, over time, the idea that these are just "money making schemes" is totally reinforced in their minds. I sat at Marv Wolfman's dining room table in late 2015, trying to explain to him that people weren't just, in his words, "treating his signature like a trading card." I tried to explain to him that people wanted him to sign a copy because THAT BOOK means something to them, because they read it, and enjoyed it, and just want to collect it in a specific way.

He couldn't process it. So, Marv Wolfman hasn't signed a single comic of mine since, even though he's one of the people responsible for me getting into comics in the first place. First Batman comic I ever picked up off the shelf? #437, Year 3, part 2, written by none other than Marv Wolfman. First back issue series I went after and completed? New Teen Titans (or Justice League; one of the two.)

So, no, I don't think your contention that creators track the "value" of their signatures is true. I think they see morons listing things for hundreds or thousands of dollars more than they're actually worth, and that's it. They don't understand the collector market, and have no interest in doing so. They want to sell their NEXT project, not dwell on things they did in the 70s.

And...as I have said many times before, in many places, collectors behave like addicts. Creators willingly and knowingly exploiting this behavior is tacky, at the very least. Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD.

And just so everyone's still on the same page: the issue isn't "charging exorbitant fees" and never has been. Creators are free, and should be free, to charge whatever amount they want for their signature. The issue is the difference in price they charge, based on their perception of where that signature is going. If Campbell is WILLING to sign anything for $20...and he is...and Wolfman is WILLING to sign anything for $5....and he is....then there's no valid reason why they should upcharge anyone because of what that person decides to do with their property. After all...despite the "arguments" of the functionally illiterate, the creator isn't doing anything different to justify the additional cost. Same effort, same signature, same time involved.

Edited by RockMyAmadeus
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I agree with most of what @RockMyAmadeus has to say but I think some of it is off-base because Campbell doesn't have a rep from what I can tell. I think the individuals that have gotten into the ears of some creators for their own benefit have caused a lot of damage. Signature fees have escalated rather quickly over the last few years because of a few people who were in it for themselves, enticing artists at times with signing bonuses, then taking 25% - 50% off the top of signature fees and sales at shows. Because of this, you now have creators who look across the aisle at shows and see random B & C level writers and artists who never charged for a signature now charging $15 - $25 for a signature. Those "A" level artists & creators that were once happy charging $5 - $10 for their signature, regardless if it was going to CGC, are now in the $20 - $40 realm, just because the other guy is doing it. Campbell has been charging for his sig at shows for years, if its trending up now it's because of the others who are charging, not because of him trying to gouge the consumer.

I'm not happy with the current state of things. Something else though to keep an eye out for though, the appearance fees and demands these reps have been asking show promoters for. I think that's the next shoe to drop.

 

Edited by BeachBum
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2 hours ago, BeachBum said:

but I think some of it is off-base because Campbell doesn't have a rep from what I can tell.

True, but he does charge a CGC punishment tax, which is the issue, rep or no.

But otherwise, I'm in complete agreement with your comments. Just charge one price. Whatever it is. Don't punish people over things that aren't any of your business.

It's pretty simple.

And I LOVE Campbell art. As I told him on that November day in 2016 in Burbank, CA, "I've been a fan of yours since Deathmate Black" (yes, he did a few pages in that.)

Which, ok, isn't technically true, but close enough...when I saw the art for Gen 13 #3 a couple months later (#1 and #2 were sold out)...I was hooked. Absolutely hooked. Thought he was the next Jim Lee. You can watch him improve before your very eyes, page to page, throughout that Gen 13 mini.

...so, yeah, with him, telling me to my face that I'm not a fan, because I'm getting books signed, and that I have to pay more because of the way I collect...?

Come on.

:(

 

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45 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

True, but he does charge a CGC punishment tax, which is the issue, rep or no.

But otherwise, I'm in complete agreement with your comments. Just charge one price. Whatever it is. Don't punish people over things that aren't any of your business.

It's pretty simple.

And I LOVE Campbell art. As I told him on that November day in 2016 in Burbank, CA, "I've been a fan of yours since Deathmate Black" (yes, he did a few pages in that.)

Which, ok, isn't technically true, but close enough...when I saw the art for Gen 13 #3 a couple months later (#1 and #2 were sold out)...I was hooked. Absolutely hooked. Thought he was the next Jim Lee. You can watch him improve before your very eyes, page to page, throughout that Gen 13 mini.

...so, yeah, with him, telling me to my face that I'm not a fan, because I'm getting books signed, and that I have to pay more because of the way I collect...?

Come on.

:(

 

The interesting thing I've noticed is that his unsigned/signed prices are very close on the web store. Take his menu for the recent Captain Marvel release -

"Cover A: Current Costume, limited to 2,800 copies
Cover B: Warbird costume w/sash, limited to 2,300 copies
Cover C: Golden Era, limited to 1,250 copies
Cover D: Binary, limited to 1,250 copies
Cover E: Fighter Pilot, limited to 1,250 copies
 

Options:

  • Cover A - unsigned / SIGNED ($15 / $20) SAVE!
  • Set A & B (2 books) - unsigned / SIGNED ($40 / $50)
  • ULTRA Set A, B, C, D & E (5 books) - unsigned / SIGNED ($145 / $185)"

At these prices his A & B books were $5 more each signed, and the C, D, E, were $10 more each signed. Each signed book is shipped with a nice COA and in mylar/full back or half back so there is a production/material cost in that sig fee.

Now on the flip side I was shocked when the Artgerm Captain Marvel #1 was released on their web store, and the A & B set was $45 unsigned, but the raw signed set was $85! Wow, $20 each sig! Even the solo A cover is $14.99 unsigned, $35.99 signed (a $21 sig fee). Artgerm charges $20 for CGC at his table, and $10 for regular if I'm correct. So now you have raw books being signed and sold at CGC tax prices on the website. I hope that was a mistake with their launch and not a trend. Seems excessive.

 

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10 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:
11 hours ago, masterlogan2000 said:
23 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Nevermind, of course, that 90-99% of the value of every book is in 1. its status (New Mutants #98 or #92?) and 2. its condition. 

Don't forget that for moderns, especially the variant cover market, much of the value is derived by the age of the book.  A variant cover fresh off the presses today commands a premium because of its freshness, with speculators and addicts both keeping prices inflated.  There is a "Fear of Missing Out" mentality on all of these books.  But, wait 30 days and, in the majority of cases, prices fall precipitously.

Ok, but how is that different from a book's status (that is, "what it is")...? 

The "status" of a book can mean any number of things, but by your example, you illustrate that we're talking about how much of a key the comic is.  New Mutants #98 is clearly a key issue with an established market.  New Mutants #92 is not a key, yet still has an established market.  The value of such established books is driven by demand, which is driven by a number of factors (1st appearance, movie hype, speculation, cover art desirability, etc.).  Comparing pricing on the NM #98 vs #92, it's clear that the #98 has a higher status.

This is completely different than what I had mentioned.  What I'm referring to is simply time decay.  Though the status of a new comic may play a factor in the price of certain new issues (again, due to pre-release hype, speculation, etc), the market for a new comic has yet to be fully established (afterall, we're talking about books that are just released).  We've seen time and time again that prices on new comics have a tremendous dip weeks/months after release, then tend to level off at a more reasonable level.

If you don't believe me, or if I'm not articulating my point clearly enough for you, there's a good discussion on this topic going on in Comics General right now regarding an article posted by Phil Boyle of Coliseum of Comics.  In particular, the first problem that Phil establishes is the following:

The Problem:  90% of the books coming off the stands at the end of their shelf life have zero value as a back issue.

A link to that article is here:
https://icv2.com/articles/columns/view/42172/something-has-change

A link to the discussion in Comics General is here:

 

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8 hours ago, masterlogan2000 said:

The "status" of a book can mean any number of things, but by your example, you illustrate that we're talking about how much of a key the comic is.  New Mutants #98 is clearly a key issue with an established market.  New Mutants #92 is not a key, yet still has an established market.  The value of such established books is driven by demand, which is driven by a number of factors (1st appearance, movie hype, speculation, cover art desirability, etc.).  Comparing pricing on the NM #98 vs #92, it's clear that the #98 has a higher status.

This is completely different than what I had mentioned.  What I'm referring to is simply time decay.  Though the status of a new comic may play a factor in the price of certain new issues (again, due to pre-release hype, speculation, etc), the market for a new comic has yet to be fully established (afterall, we're talking about books that are just released).  We've seen time and time again that prices on new comics have a tremendous dip weeks/months after release, then tend to level off at a more reasonable level.

You're wayyyyyyy overthinking it.

The main driver of a book's value is what it is. Whether that "it" is "the first appearance of Deadpool" or "the hot brand new Campbell variant", it's still the same thing: what it is. The "why" is not germane to this particular discussion.

The second driver of value is condition.

A signature, or signatures, added to a book...with some very rare exceptions (Stan Lee)...only accounts for a tiny portion of added value, if any, and is highly dependent on the first two factors.

A Jim Lee signature added to a 9.0 Alpha Flight #58? Adds nothing. The cost is substantially more than the resulting slab is worth.

A Jim Lee signature added to a 9.8 Batman #608 RRP? Now it has an effect...but only because of the underlying book and its condition.

That's the thrust of the issue.

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25 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

You're wayyyyyyy overthinking it.

I don't think I'm overthinking it at all.  If anything, I think I've had to overexplain it here to get the point across.

You can't have a blanket statement that "90-99% of the value of every book is in 1. its status and 2. its condition" when I just gave you a scenario in which another factor plays a big role.  If after 30 days of release, a book loses half its value because it's no longer "fresh off the stands", then your claim of "90-99% of the value" actually drops down to 45-49.5%.  And those values just don't sound very convincing to your argument.

Now, if you had stated that 90-99% of the value of every book with an established market... that would be more accurate.  All the books you have listed as an example have already been bought and sold for years, and their values are already established and no longer volatile.  Yet, the discussion here in this thread has mostly centered on Campbell new releases, his CGC tax, and his website pricing structure that circumvents some of this tax when you buy his books raw.  With that said, time decay plays a major role in establishing the value of a book.

And don't get me wrong, I'm in total agreement with you.  I'm just trying to add to the discussion.

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32 minutes ago, masterlogan2000 said:

I don't think I'm overthinking it at all.  If anything, I think I've had to overexplain it here to get the point across.

You can't have a blanket statement that "90-99% of the value of every book is in 1. its status and 2. its condition" when I just gave you a scenario in which another factor plays a big role.  If after 30 days of release, a book loses half its value because it's no longer "fresh off the stands", then your claim of "90-99% of the value" actually drops down to 45-49.5%.  And those values just don't sound very convincing to your argument.

Now, if you had stated that 90-99% of the value of every book with an established market... that would be more accurate.  All the books you have listed as an example have already been bought and sold for years, and their values are already established and no longer volatile.  Yet, the discussion here in this thread has mostly centered on Campbell new releases, his CGC tax, and his website pricing structure that circumvents some of this tax when you buy his books raw.  With that said, time decay plays a major role in establishing the value of a book.

And don't get me wrong, I'm in total agreement with you.  I'm just trying to add to the discussion.

Your point hasn't been missed, and no one thus far involved has disagreed with you. Where you are missing the mark is that your point has nothing to do with the conversation. 

You are making an incredibly simple concept radically more complicated than it needs to be. What you are arguing, and the numbers you are using, is not how it works. 

The value of an item isn't dictated by time, and never has been, so your "another factor" is erroneous. Value is dictated by supply and demand, and only supply and demand. Demand is driven by what something IS. An Iphone 10 is more valuable than a flip phone because of what they both ARE, which creates more demand for the one, and less demand for the other. Depreciation, which is what you're referring to here, is merely a function of that same supply and demand. 

All of which is completely irrelevant to the point: that the SIGNATURE does not account for more than a TINY percentage of the value of a Sig Series slab, IF ANY.

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RMA makes a compelling (if unstated) case for government regulation in the signatures on comic books industry. He tried to reason with these people, but either they do not understand or, even worse, know exactly what they're doing. Say "no" to discrimination!

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