Silver age comics that are heating up 26 26

[Howling Mad]

7 hours ago, zosocane said:

Financially, the market favors SC 30 over AC 260, if that matters to you.  (I don't care one way or the other as I have both, but I have my personal opinion that ain't changing.)  That's basically it.   

This right here makes all the difference. The market prefers SC30.

[HuddyBee]

16 hours ago, zosocane said:

Some say it's not a full reboot because Aquaman has always been Arthur Curry and is thus the same physical person.  Unlike, say, the Flash (full reboot), who was Jay Garrick in 1940 then was Barry Allen in 1956.  Ditto with Green Lantern (full reboot) who went from Alan Scott to Hal Jordan.  Similarly, Atom was a completely different person (GA vs. SA).  I think Hawkman is a different alter ego, right?  The argument is that Aquaman, like Wonder Woman, is the same person, hence it's a soft reboot.  So if one says, "First Silver Age Aquaman," that's not technically true.  But to say, "First SA origin of Aquaman," is technically better.

I don't have a link to the thread.  There are two of these threads in the last 3 years, if i remember correctly.  Try a Google search using "collector's society," that is sometimes much faster than the search engine above.  But I will save you the trouble, about half the Boardies say SC 30 over AC 260, and half say AC 260 over SC 30.  Financially, the market favors SC 30 over AC 260, if that matters to you.  (I don't care one way or the other as I have both, but I have my personal opinion that ain't changing.)  That's basically it.   

K, thanks. I'll search for the link. I still think it's a full reboot. Lets consider the Hawkman reboot in BB 34-36, 42-44, which we can all agree is a full reboot.

 

GA Hawkman - Carter Hall, SA Hawkman - Carter Hall (and Katar Hol)

GA Hawkman - flight/enhanced strength, SA Hawkman - flight/enhanced strength, can talk to birds

GA Hawkman and SA Hawkman - same costume (w/ minor differences)

GA Hawkman - Museum Curator/Archaeologist, SA Hawkman - Museum Curator/Archaeologist

GA Hawkman - reincarnated Egyptian prince, SA Hawkman - Alien policeman from Thanagar

 

GA Aquaman - (name?) SA Aquaman - Arthur Curry (first revealed as his name in AC 260)

GA Aquaman - breathe underwater/talk to fish, SA Aquaman - breathe underwater/control fish telepathically

GA Aquaman and SA Aquaman - same constumes

GA Aquman - regular human, trained to breathe underwater (no real super powers), SA Aquaman - Atlantian/Human hybrid who can breathe underwater (has real superpowers)

 

As you can see the Hawkman reboot consisted of very small changes, the only major one occurring with his origin. This is the exact same with the full Aquaman reboot. As far as I can tell Aquaman might have had even more changes made to the character, those of which were detailed in his reboot in AC 260. Aquaman was published continually from GA to SA, but that's the only real difference between the two reboots detailed above. (but is that really proof ta say it wasn't as full reboot) Aquaman's reboot was not as glamorous as Hawkman's, but if Hawkman's was a full reboot (which it was), then Aquaman's is a full reboot.

 

So yes, it is correct to say "First SA Aquaman," just an interesting way to look at things.

 

[HuddyBee]

16 hours ago, Howling Mad said:

This right here makes all the difference. The market prefers SC30.

The Market can be wrong. Surely you don't think the market was right in the 90's. In fact it was the market's incorrectness the caused the comic crash in the 90s. The market went crazy for "The Death of Superman" in the 90s. How's that "investment" paid off?

[Howling Mad]

16 minutes ago, HuddyBee said:

The Market can be wrong. Surely you don't think the market was right in the 90's. In fact it was the market's incorrectness the caused the comic crash in the 90s. The market went crazy for "The Death of Superman" in the 90s. How's that "investment" paid off?

What's your point?

The market has firmly established SC30 as the preferred SA Aquaman key. Similar to Thor 165 for Him/Adam Warlock, or even Hulk 181 in place of Hulk 180 (arguably Wolverine's 1st full appearance).

It just is what it is. I've owned both. I find it highly doubtful that AC260, which doesn't even have Aquaman on the cover, is going to all of a sudden be the fan favorite.

[HuddyBee]

1 minute ago, Howling Mad said:

What's your point?

The market has firmly established SC30 as the preferred SA Aquaman key. Similar to Thor 165 for Him/Adam Warlock, or even Hulk 181 in place of Hulk 180 (arguably Wolverine's 1st full appearance).

It just is what it is. I've owned both. I find it highly doubtful that AC260, which doesn't even have Aquaman on the cover, is going to all of a sudden be the fan favorite.

My point is the market doesn't decide keys. Sometimes the market gives too much value to a certain book at a certain time. Just because a book is worth $ now doesn't make it a key, or even important. I'm not saying AC 260 will spike tomorrow, but in the long run it will do better than SC 30. The market currently places lots of value on SC 30, just like the market placed a lot of value in "The Death of Superman" in the 90s. But we see where that led. The market has no bearing on the keyness or importantness of a book.

[Howling Mad]

22 minutes ago, HuddyBee said:

My point is the market doesn't decide keys. Sometimes the market gives too much value to a certain book at a certain time. Just because a book is worth $ now doesn't make it a key, or even important. I'm not saying AC 260 will spike tomorrow, but in the long run it will do better than SC 30. The market currently places lots of value on SC 30, just like the market placed a lot of value in "The Death of Superman" in the 90s. But we see where that led. The market has no bearing on the keyness or importantness of a book.

Sure, but you just defined how collectibles and markets in general work. Although the market can't retroactively dictate important comic content, it absolutely does help to drive what collectors see as keys.

That analogy has no relevance in comparison to silver age books either. That was literally an event, with non comic people scooping them up in the hopes of hitting it big, similar to Beanie Babies. They were never worth much to begin with, it's not as if they became $1000 books.

I firmly believe SC30 will always command more value than AC260, even though AC260 is truly Aquamans first SA appearance.

[Aman619]

Apples to oranges.  The discussion between ADV260and SC30 is between two vintage comics suddenly hot dues to movie hype.  But interest in both comics is very different from hobby speculation on any current modern comic considered TO BE HISTORIC (and valuable) in the future! These usually end badly! 

Whichever Aquaman book loses out as first SA issue won’t be worth fifty cents like Death of Superman is now... the correct parallel is first Sgt Rock, or first Teen Titans. Or first SA Wonder Woman.  Between two vintage issues not released as a speculation buy in the last 30years!  It’s en to existing SA stories published in a time before modern speculation where one book is long considered THE  BOOK ONLY TO SEE 8NTEREST IN ANOTHER ISSUE ECLIPSE IT  by fans. 

[Howling Mad]

3 hours ago, Aman619 said:

Apples to oranges.  The discussion between ADV260and SC30 is between two vintage comics suddenly hot dues to movie hype.  But interest in both comics is very different from hobby speculation on any current modern comic considered TO BE HISTORIC (and valuable) in the future! These usually end badly! 

Whichever Aquaman book loses out as first SA issue won’t be worth fifty cents like Death of Superman is now... the correct parallel is first Sgt Rock, or first Teen Titans. Or first SA Wonder Woman.  Between two vintage issues not released as a speculation buy in the last 30years!  It’s en to existing SA stories published in a time before modern speculation where one book is long considered THE  BOOK ONLY TO SEE 8NTEREST IN ANOTHER ISSUE ECLIPSE IT  by fans. 

Good post, and great analogies. It reminds me of B&TB 54 vs 60.

[HuddyBee]

On 6/22/2018 at 6:48 PM, Aman619 said:

Apples to oranges.  The discussion between ADV260and SC30 is between two vintage comics suddenly hot dues to movie hype.  But interest in both comics is very different from hobby speculation on any current modern comic considered TO BE HISTORIC (and valuable) in the future! These usually end badly! 

Whichever Aquaman book loses out as first SA issue won’t be worth fifty cents like Death of Superman is now... the correct parallel is first Sgt Rock, or first Teen Titans. Or first SA Wonder Woman.  Between two vintage issues not released as a speculation buy in the last 30years!  It’s en to existing SA stories published in a time before modern speculation where one book is long considered THE  BOOK ONLY TO SEE 8NTEREST IN ANOTHER ISSUE ECLIPSE IT  by fans. 

Part of this is what I've been saying. SC 30 and Aquaman 1 have both shot up in price because of this movie. I think a lot of this addition in value is superficial, as I do with many marvel books going for ridiculous amounts of money now, due to movies. For some reason AC 260 has not been influenced, to the same degree, as SC 30 and Aquaman 1, despite it being arguably the greatest key for that character. This is what makes me suspicious of the increase in value. Is it all just hype? And will it crash soon? I think so. I may be wrong. But I believe AC 260, would be the most stable book, in terms of price fluctuation. IMO

[Aman619]

The movie books don’t rally crash, but get a soft landing at a higher level than before the hype.  So buying too late hurts every time as the move has already happened. But the books hold most of the value. Silver age with relative scarcity in grade anyway. 

[Howling Mad]

44 minutes ago, HuddyBee said:

Part of this is what I've been saying. SC 30 and Aquaman 1 have both shot up in price because of this movie. I think a lot of this addition in value is superficial, as I do with many marvel books going for ridiculous amounts of money now, due to movies. For some reason AC 260 has not been influenced, to the same degree, as SC 30 and Aquaman 1, despite it being arguably the greatest key for that character. This is what makes me suspicious of the increase in value. Is it all just hype? And will it crash soon? I think so. I may be wrong. But I believe AC 260, would be the most stable book, in terms of price fluctuation. IMO

SC30 has been undervalued for many years, it's not surprising that it's starting to creep up, especially with renewed interest in both Aquaman and Mera (yes, I realize she wasn't around yet).

[paul747]

8 hours ago, Howling Mad said:

SC30 has been undervalued for many years, it's not surprising that it's starting to creep up, especially with renewed interest in both Aquaman and Mera (yes, I realize she wasn't around yet).

I agree SC30 was undervalued. #260 in high grade is a tough book. Neither will come all the way back down.

[HuddyBee]

16 hours ago, Howling Mad said:

SC30 has been undervalued for many years, it's not surprising that it's starting to creep up, especially with renewed interest in both Aquaman and Mera (yes, I realize she wasn't around yet).

Undervalued??? G copies on ebay are selling for $300+ This book is far from undervalued. Everyone knows its not his first appearance, its only his first solo book, and its not even a #1. I'll give you it's a significant book, but not that significant! No one gave a snot about Aquaman 10 years ago. The price increase has only to thank bandwagoners and superficial movie hype. If only well informed collectors where buying this book, it would be worth less than AC 260 and Aquaman 1, as they would realize the importance of one and the unimportance of the other. Its not that rare. There's 500+ copies on the census, plus probably 500 more raw. Everyone seems to think their favorite comic book/character is "undervalued." It's not. SC 30 is only "undervalued" when compared to half the Marvel "keys." Most DC books I will say are "undervalued," when you compare them to marvel, especially when taking into account their rarity. But if we're going to talk about undervalued DC books, SC 30, is far from the top of the list. A book like this should be worth about as much as SC 34 and BB34, thats about the level its on in terms of "keyness." Books like these are only going up because of Movies and superficial hype. These kinds of books are subject to that kind of change. (you'll notice Action 1/Detective 27, barely go up in value with hype) When you have books that aren't crazy rare, its more subject to change with movies and hype. So a book like SC 30 can shoot up. But people aren't going to be on the Superhero Movie train forever. The fad will die down. And when that happens SC 30 will be far from the top. When judging if a book is under or over valued you have to look at it save the hype. Take into consideration the movie and how much the book fluctuates. Books that shoot up are more likely to shoot down. Books that slowly work their way up without Movie hype, are more likely to stay put or continue upward, or at worst slowly work their way down. (of course this change usually will occur alongside a steady upward moving constant) It's as my good friend Isaac Newton put it, "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Edited June 24, 2018 by HuddyBee

[Howling Mad]

1 hour ago, HuddyBee said:

Undervalued??? G copies on ebay are selling for $300+ This book is far from undervalued. Everyone knows its not his first appearance, its only his first solo book, and its not even a #1. I'll give you it's a significant book, but not that significant! No one gave a snot about Aquaman 10 years ago. The price increase has only to thank bandwagoners and superficial movie hype. If only well informed collectors where buying this book, it would be worth less than AC 260 and Aquaman 1, as they would realize the importance of one and the unimportance of the other. Its not that rare. There's 500+ copies on the census, plus probably 500 more raw. Everyone seems to think their favorite comic book/character is "undervalued." It's not. SC 30 is only "undervalued" when compared to half the Marvel "keys." Most DC books I will say are "undervalued," when you compare them to marvel, especially when taking into account their rarity. But if we're going to talk about undervalued DC books, SC 30, is far from the top of the list. A book like this should be worth about as much as SC 34 and BB34, thats about the level its on in terms of "keyness." Books like these are only going up because of Movies and superficial hype. These kinds of books are subject to that kind of change. (you'll notice Action 1/Detective 27, barely go up in value with hype) When you have books that aren't crazy rare, its more subject to change with movies and hype. So a book like SC 30 can shoot up. But people aren't going to be on the Superhero Movie train forever. The fad will die down. And when that happens SC 30 will be far from the top. When judging if a book is under or over valued you have to look at it save the hype. Take into consideration the movie and how much the book fluctuates. Books that shoot up are more likely to shoot down. Books that slowly work their way up without Movie hype, are more likely to stay put or continue upward, or at worst slowly work their way down. (of course this change usually will occur alongside a steady upward moving constant) It's as my good friend Isaac Newton put it, "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

I'm not sure how to address this, however I find it odd that you both agree and disagree with market dynamics. The market determines what's important, what's collectible, and overall supply, demand, and monetary value.

Showcase 30 has been chosen, by the market (whether true collectors or speculators) as Aquaman's tryout/silver-age 1st appearance. It is what it is. You can argue otherwise, and I agree, but that doesn't change anything. Yes it's absolutely undervalued in comparison to other key Showcase books, and you're right, it's seeing a lot of growth as there is buzz around Aquaman. That's the market at play.

Action 1 and Detective 27 are part of an elite number of books that can defy market principals. There's demand, little supply, and they've been on everyone's radar for many, many years. 

Your fundamental understanding of how the comic book market works seems somewhat flawed. SC30 will never return to it's values from a few years back short of a wide economic market crash (similar to what happened in 2007/2008). Will it hit a peak in a few months and then settle back down a bit? Absolutely, but it'll very likely retain a considerable portion of that hype growth, and that will become the new standard. Look at Fantastic Four 52 as an example.

Some books defy common sense, that's just what it is. You're looking at this from a really rational perspective, and that's not how the market works. Movies may not have a meaningful impact for a lot of big time collectors (who either were well ahead of the curve, or just aren't interested), but they do for everyone else. The amateur collector or those just getting into collecting. That's what helps to sustain values overtime, and that's why SC30 will always command more value than AC260 from here forward--people like the cover and want it. If Aquaman is a hit you'll see this grow exponentially.

Metrics can be backed up by looking at GPA Analysis or Heritage Auctions, etc. Keep a close eye on the growth of Marvel Super-Heroes 13 and Ms. Marvel 1. it'll spike and resettle, but the time to get in is now or never.

From here forward we're just going to have to agree to disagree...

PS: let us not forget that DC's Showcase run is highly collected. It was DC's playing ground from the late 50's on, and features many extremely rare and valuable issues.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Howling Mad

[Aman619]

I read Howlings "undervalued" term as applied to over the previous 25 years.  We all knew it was a minor Aquaman key, but never rose above 1000 in HG and lower grade copies weren't being sought after except as run fillers.  No one thinks its "undervalued" anymore since the movie hype singled it out.

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, Howling Mad said:

Showcase 30 has been chosen, by the market (whether true collectors or speculators) as Aquaman's tryout/silver-age 1st appearance.

That's not how it works. The market only decides where the money goes. That decision is at least partially based on factors which have nothing to do with the contents of a book.

[KirbyJack]

The market has chosen Showcase 30 as the most desirable book. 1st appearances are not subjective.

[zosocane]

1 hour ago, KirbyJack said:

The market has chosen Showcase 30 as the most desirable book. 1st appearances are not subjective.

I would agree with this.  The market, for now, says SC 30 is more desireable over Adv 260.  If one cares about what the market thinks.  Maybe the market is embracing that it is Aquaman’s first full-length book, not really the origin angle.  Who knows, but the sales data speaks.  All that said, I remember it wasn’t too long ago when the market was paying much more for WW 105 and a lot less for WW 98 (which I never understood).  And then a few years ago the valuations on those two books flip-flopped and WW 98 shot up.  Who knows whether Adv 260 will overtake SC 30.  Buy both books in grade and you’re covered!

[Howling Mad]

34 minutes ago, zosocane said:

I would agree with this.  The market, for now, says SC 30 is more desireable over Adv 260.  If one cares about what the market thinks.  Maybe the market is embracing that it is Aquaman’s first full-length book, not really the origin angle.  Who knows, but the sales data speaks.  All that said, I remember it wasn’t too long ago when the market was paying much more for WW 105 and a lot less for WW 98 (which I never understood).  And then a few years ago the valuations on those two books flip-flopped and WW 98 shot up.  Who knows whether Adv 260 will overtake SC 30.  Buy both books in grade and you’re covered!

This is a really good point! That was just a few years ago and boy did it flip! That said, WW98 is a wonderful cover, absolutely love the art by Mike Esposito if I recall.

[HuddyBee]

5 hours ago, Howling Mad said:

our fundamental understanding of how the comic book market works seems somewhat flawed. SC30 will never return to it's values from a few years back short of a wide economic market crash (similar to what happened in 2007/2008). Will it hit a peak in a few months and then settle back down a bit? Absolutely, but it'll very likely retain a considerable portion of that hype growth, and that will become the new standard. Look at Fantastic Four 52 as an example.

I 100% agree. Note what I meant by "crash." I stated:

6 hours ago, HuddyBee said:

of course this change usually will occur alongside a steady upward moving constant)

Rarely will comics, or any collectible, over a decent period of time return to lower prices or less than lower prices, than a steady upward growth along a constant.

Take this for example: Imagine a book grows on average $2 a month. That growth will continue regularly and only change slowly. (usually) A book will only crash as far as it can, as it goes along with that constant of $2 a month. (again usually) So lets say in two years that book increases about $50 by the means of that constant. Let's say just for fun this book originally was worth $200. In that two years, 5 months prior the end of the two years, the book suddenly spiked, and rose $10 a month for 5 months, and then crashed. The book usually will not crash to below $250, because of its steady growth by a constant of $2 a month. It will have peeked at $300. So in the end in those two years the book grew by a steady constant of $2 a month to $250. But in the middle it peaked at $300 and crashed and lost $50. The book only crashed the amount that it grew, but since the book was moving at a slow constant of $2 a month, it still gained value. Note: this is purely a hypothetical situation. Now this is usually how collectibles increase in value. Silver Age books haven't been observed for that long of a time, so this model could be completely inaccurate. But it is still interesting to take into account, and is the reason I don't consider a lot of the Marvel Silver Age keys to be good investments, because yes it will increase in value, but maybe not at the point its at now.

A lot of good stuff coming from this "debate," I have surely enjoyed it.