X-Men Annual #14 - Proof of Gambit's 1st published appearance within 3 3

[Lazyboy]

On 9/23/2021 at 3:23 PM, AGGIEZ said:

So now you're trying to change the definition of 1st appearance?

I'm not trying to change anything. I'm just literate and intelligent.

On 9/23/2021 at 3:23 PM, AGGIEZ said:

Perceived "relevance" is now a factor? OK...

It affects the quality/quantity of the appearance. A single-page appearance is brief (especially in a 40-page story). Being barely visible in the background, doing absolutely nothing, on a few more pages does absolutely nothing to change that.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 9/23/2021 at 8:03 PM, Lazyboy said:

I'm not trying to change anything. I'm just literate and intelligent.

It affects the quality/quantity of the appearance. A single-page appearance is brief (especially in a 40-page story). Being barely visible in the background, doing absolutely nothing, on a few more pages does absolutely nothing to change that.

More importantly, it affects the desirability of that appearance. X-Factor 23/24 is a similar situation to this one regarding quality of the appearance (except, of course, that it wasn't necessary to adjust anything considering the fact that X-Factor 23 was going to published first); Archangel appears on multiple pages, and is more integral to the story, yet X-Factor 24 has pretty much always been the book to have.

[AGGIEZ]

On 9/23/2021 at 7:03 PM, Lazyboy said:

I'm not trying to change anything. I'm just literate and intelligent.

It affects the quality/quantity of the appearance. A single-page appearance is brief (especially in a 40-page story). Being barely visible in the background, doing absolutely nothing, on a few more pages does absolutely nothing to change that.

Leave the personal pot shots out of the discussion bud. All of us on the boards are literate and most of us are intelligent. 

[Sauce Dog]

On 9/24/2021 at 11:48 AM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

More importantly, it affects the desirability of that appearance. X-Factor 23/24 is a similar situation to this one regarding quality of the appearance (except, of course, that it wasn't necessary to adjust anything considering the fact that X-Factor 23 was going to published first); Archangel appears on multiple pages, and is more integral to the story, yet X-Factor 24 has pretty much always been the book to have.

That example has always bugged me and I really wish CGC (hell, everyone for that matter) would stop perpetuating it on its labels. Anyone who has even casually glanced at the books can recognize it wasn't even close to being his first appearance (He had two cameos in a pair of issues before his full named appearance as Death in #23, then in #24 he had his first cover appearance, and it only then dozens of issues later that he finally was given his 'Archangel' name).

I personally think, much like the case for Gambit, adjusting the label would have zero impact on the price and desirability of the book (as it is the cover in both cases that make the books - that's why I only own #24 for display) - take for example Adventure Comics #46 vs New York World's Fair Comics #1, the prices favour the epic cover even though it isn't technically first appearance of Sandman. 

Edited October 2, 2021 by Sauce Dog

[catch21]

 

On 9/22/2021 at 6:27 PM, MattrixAlien said:

Across the internet there are people who care enough to join a discussion to ask why does anyone care about the discussion. The irony of this never ceases to amaze me. Opinions have actually shifted things. The annual has significantly increased in value and CGC has noted it predates 266.

No one is arguing it wasn't published 1st=Predates. The issue is how should books be labeled when continuity and published aren't synced.

[catch21]

On 9/20/2021 at 8:32 PM, oakman29 said:

Now you are splitting hairs.

How so explain if our argument is 1st published is all that matters.

[catch21]

On 9/20/2021 at 1:24 PM, AGGIEZ said:

Yes…this page alone…

 

Counting the panels makes sense when the story is in continuity this not the case. Which is proven when gambit says "You know storm I like you better when the brain of kid of a kid to go with that body." which takes place in 266 Predates yes, continuity no.

Edited October 7, 2021 by catch21

[J Bill]

Hate to dig up this topic as I have a relative ambivalence to Gambit's first appearance, but I just realized my copy of X-Men Annual #14 has a bar code. I'm the original owner of this issue and was definitely buying exclusively from comic shops back then, so I have no idea how I would have a newsstand copy. Is it possible this bar code version could have been distributed in the direct market? Did that happen back then?

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/4/2021 at 4:15 PM, J Bill said:

Hate to dig up this topic as I have a relative ambivalence to Gambit's first appearance, but I just realized my copy of X-Men Annual #14 has a bar code. I'm the original owner of this issue and was definitely buying exclusively from comic shops back then, so I have no idea how I would have a newsstand copy. Is it possible this bar code version could have been distributed in the direct market? Did that happen back then?

are you trying to say that you bought it off the Rack? day of release? and you specifically remember that?

That's not to aggravate.

Buying from a LCS back then, it is totally possible that the day of release for "some" newsstands could have been close enough to direct that it was found in a LCS at the time, and available for purchase, right? That doesn't necessarily mean the LCS received it from a distributer that way, right? 

[J Bill]

On 12/4/2021 at 4:24 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

are you trying to say that you bought it off the Rack? day of release? and you specifically remember that?

That's not to aggravate.

Buying from a LCS back then, it is totally possible that the day of release for "some" newsstands could have been close enough to direct that it was found in a LCS at the time, and available for purchase, right? That doesn't necessarily mean the LCS received it from a distributer that way, right? 

Thanks for the response! I was a huge X-Men guy back then and always had the title on my pull list at my LCS, so I've got a fairly high degree of confidence that I would have picked up the annual that way as well.  I can't picture myself not picking this up day of release and getting it later at a drugstore or something. If anything, I would have just picked it up at my LCS later.  I guess you're suggesting it's possible my LCS had acquired newsstand copies in the aftermarket?  Anything is possible I suppose!  I was just mostly looking to confirm that there wasn't some odd policy at Marvel back then when they were trying to push bar code scanning and shipping bar code copies in the direct market.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/4/2021 at 4:36 PM, J Bill said:

Thanks for the response! I was a huge X-Men guy back then and always had the title on my pull list at my LCS, so I've got a fairly high degree of confidence that I would have picked up the annual that way as well.  I can't picture myself not picking this up day of release and getting it later at a drugstore or something. If anything, I would have just picked it up at my LCS later.  I guess you're suggesting it's possible my LCS had acquired newsstand copies in the aftermarket?  Anything is possible I suppose!  I was just mostly looking to confirm that there wasn't some odd policy at Marvel back then when they were trying to push bar code scanning and shipping bar code copies in the direct market.

Sure! Its quite possible that things were done differently with a few issues, but I'm not sure about the annual specifically, as I'm still a noob in many areas.

That was just my guess that, yes, upon discovering a new character that someone traded into the LCS.

That would only be my uneducated guess, but it's possible.

I remember Newsstand being up to two weeks on the stand after LCS, but would argue that it's far more possible that timing was closer. Rather than the Newsstand was distributed to the LCS. That said it's a good question and I'll wait for others to chime in.

 

[Lazyboy]

On 12/4/2021 at 4:15 PM, J Bill said:

Hate to dig up this topic as I have a relative ambivalence to Gambit's first appearance, but I just realized my copy of X-Men Annual #14 has a bar code. I'm the original owner of this issue and was definitely buying exclusively from comic shops back then, so I have no idea how I would have a newsstand copy. Is it possible this bar code version could have been distributed in the direct market? Did that happen back then?

Comic shops could deal with newsstand distributors if they wanted to, though the majority probably never did.

On 12/4/2021 at 4:36 PM, J Bill said:

I was just mostly looking to confirm that there wasn't some odd policy at Marvel back then when they were trying to push bar code scanning and shipping bar code copies in the direct market.

No, that wasn't a thing.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/4/2021 at 7:51 PM, Lazyboy said:

Comic shops could deal with newsstand distributors if they wanted to, though the majority probably never did.

No, that wasn't a thing.

I wanted to tag you, but since it can be a topic of , I figured I'd leave it up to you to decide to participate.

I knew "I" wasn't the expert, so thanks  

[mytastebud]

I will chime in on this to give a Southern California prospective. I found out early on that my local newsstand was almost a full week behind my local comic book store. I know this for a fact. Any issue that sold out as a direct addition I would buy about 5-6 days later at the newsstand. I used that to my advantage. I always bought issues that ran out at my LCBS

I also know for a fact that my local comic book store used a hand written ledger calculator and no traditional cash register for sales.

[Natty Bumpo]

This won't change anyone's mind about what counts as a first appearance, but I have a prelim by Art Adams where he's sketched into the scene. Most of the characters aren't fully rendered, so there's no way to know if he had a model to work from at the time of the sketch. The question mark floating above his head is, I think, supposed to indicate the mood when drawing in the facial expressions. An interesting aspect is in a different panel, though, where Adams writes "Cable (or Forge)?" That makes me wonder if the -script didn't include some ambiguity, but who knows. Anyway, enjoy the pics:

[MAR1979]

On 9/23/2021 at 8:03 PM, Lazyboy said:

I'm not trying to change anything. I'm just literate and intelligent.

It affects the quality/quantity of the appearance. A single-page appearance is brief (especially in a 40-page story). Being barely visible in the background, doing absolutely nothing, on a few more pages does absolutely nothing to change that.

Like X-O 4 somehow being attributed as the first Shadowman.  Seriously 1 panel of a dude playing the saxophone. Never mentioned by name and over the years has supplanted Shadowman #1 as first app - WTF!! 

 

 

[AGGIEZ]

On 12/12/2021 at 4:42 PM, MAR1979 said:

Like X-O 4 somehow being attributed as the first Shadowman.  Seriously 1 panel of a dude playing the saxophone. Never mentioned by name and over the years has supplanted Shadowman #1 as first app - WTF!! 

 

 

These don't seem to be anywhere close to similar...I don't see the correlation? 

I do agree that X-O#4 being the 1st Shadowman is a bit ridiculous. I think a better comparison is probably the 1st appearance of Darkseid in the Jimmy Olsen book...just silly

[MAR1979]

On 12/13/2021 at 11:10 AM, AGGIEZ said:

These don't seem to be anywhere close to similar...I don't see the correlation? 

I do agree that X-O#4 being the 1st Shadowman is a bit ridiculous. I think a better comparison is probably the 1st appearance of Darkseid in the Jimmy Olsen book...just silly

I never read the first 30 pages of this topic   I really just wanted to vent against X-0 #4.  BTW I do own both books in 9.8 they are my original raw copies purchased when I was young, but it sort of diminishes Shadowman #1.  I'll end my Off-topic stuff now...

Edited December 13, 2021 by MAR1979

[valiantman]

On 12/12/2021 at 4:42 PM, MAR1979 said:

Like X-O 4 somehow being attributed as the first Shadowman.  Seriously 1 panel of a dude playing the saxophone. Never mentioned by name and over the years has supplanted Shadowman #1 as first app - WTF!! 

 

 

Shadowman #1 is the first full appearance of Shadowman (Jack Boniface). 

X-O Manowar #4 might be worth more, but the value is also due to the Harbinger crossover story (and cover).

Valiant liked to do "surprise" first appearances (just a panel or two), which were not part of the solicitation and advertising for the books.

It was known that Shadowman #1 was about to be released, so comic shops ordered appropriately, but this X-O #4 panel was a "surprise".

Today we'd compare this 1990s comic book panel of Jack playing saxophone to an after-credit scene in movies. 

The first time we see Thanos in the movies is about two seconds.  Similar idea.

[MAR1979]

On 12/15/2021 at 11:02 AM, valiantman said:

Shadowman #1 is the first full appearance of Shadowman (Jack Boniface). 

X-O Manowar #4 might be worth more, but the value is also due to the Harbinger crossover story (and cover).

Valiant liked to do "surprise" first appearances (just a panel or two), which were not part of the solicitation and advertising for the books.

It was known that Shadowman #1 was about to be released, so comic shops ordered appropriately, but this X-O #4 panel was a "surprise".

Today we'd compare this 1990s comic book panel of Jack playing saxophone to an after-credit scene in movies. 

The first time we see Thanos in the movies is about two seconds.  Similar idea.

Fair enough although I'd mince it down a bit further:

Shadowman #1 is the first appearance of Shadowman and 1st full Jack Boniface . 

X-O #4 is 1st unnamed cameo of Jack Boniface (who later becomes Shadowman)

X-O #4 was actually the first Valiant back issue I ever purchased.  Got it at small monthly show in July 1992 for $2. Sent it in this past spring in a nearly all non-Marvel, non-DC submission. One of only 4 book's in my purchase records I actually listed as "Mint".  CGC felt it was a 9.8.  It's one of the strongest 9.8's I've ever seen. When preparing my submission I even looked at the edges under 10x magnification .  Really thought I had a plausible 9.9 candidate...

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by MAR1979