SPIDER-MAN: HOMECOMING starring Tom Holland (7/28/17) 3 3

[StuporMan]

Just saw this last night. I wasn't in a hurry to see it. My expectations weren't too high; I thought half of this movie would be teen drama and origin story. So happy that it wasn't another "reboot" ... I like that the story took off right after Civil War. Tom Holland was also a surprisingly good as Spider-man. I hope they continue this direction...

[Prince Namor]

10 hours ago, Jaylam said:

 After watching "Homecoming" I just felt there was a little something missing, but I just couldn't put my finger on it.... until I watched a few clips of Tobey McGuire's Spider-man. The difference was I found myself rooting for Tobey's Spider-man, but I just couldn't muster that same feeling for Tom Holland's rendition. If anything I felt more sympathy for Toomes and understood his character and motivations better. Of course it helped that Keaton rocked the part, but I'm not so sure Holland has reached that level of maturity in his acting and it really showed in scenes when they were together.

Actually, I think the Tobey movies in general are just better overall, though Keaton is spectacular in the new one.

The things that made Spider-man, classic Spider-man anyway, are prevelent in the Raimi movies - the strain of responsibility, the awkwardness of learning his powers/growing through puberty (he's somewhat cool and liked in the other movies), the paranoia of his identity being discovered (everyone seems to know his identity in the other movies), a fragile Aunt May who actually depends on him (not a hip younger woman)....

The new movies seem to be for the generation that grew up with the 90's Spider-man who had a super model wife and became a wealthy business owner or whatever....

[Prince Namor]

Stan Lee co-created some of the greatest characters in the history of comics, if not THE greatest character (Spider-man).

As a writer, his contributions are pretty minimal and insignificant outside of his association with Kirby, Ditko, and Romita; but certainly his ability to write with, plot, organize and promote, while directing that talent, is the reason we even still have comic books today.

Bendis is best known as someone who has taken someone else's work and 'tweaked' it for a new generation. 

Yes, Stan's dialogue was campy and overstated, most media from 50 years ago is written differently than it is now.

Just because Bendis can have today's characters saying, "That's person_without_enough_empathyin', man!", doesn't make it good.

What comics today lack, is something Benids can't seem to give it - originality, freshness, and a new angle. Stan's co-contribution didn't just change Marvel Comics, it changed comics, and in many ways, popular entertainment in general. That IS writing.

I couldn't even begin to compare him to Bendis.

[fantastic_four]

15 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Yes, Stan's dialogue was campy and overstated, most media from 50 years ago is written differently than it is now.

Just because Bendis can have today's characters saying, "That's person_without_enough_empathyin', man!", doesn't make it good.

What comics today lack, is something Benids can't seem to give it - originality, freshness, and a new angle. Stan's co-contribution didn't just change Marvel Comics, it changed comics, and in many ways, popular entertainment in general. That IS writing.

I couldn't even begin to compare him to Bendis.

Dialogue was Stan's greatest strength behind his extreme innovation with character concept.  I suppose I can't even criticize his plots since he didn't write them and left them up to the artists, but the real problem there is that Stan's "Marvel Method" sucks.  Writers need to write everything, not just come up with a story and leave it up to the artists to work out like Stan did.

[fantastic_four]

8 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

Dialogue was Stan's greatest strength behind his extreme innovation with character concept.

And the height of that was what he did on Fantastic Four with the Thing.  The interaction between Thing and Johnny was probably the highlight of Silver Age dialogue, and lines like "IT'S CLOBBERIN' TIME!" long outlived Stan's actual time at Marvel.

[Prince Namor]

1 hour ago, fantastic_four said:

Dialogue was Stan's greatest strength

Well... personally, I thought it was Stan's dialogue that was actually kind of corny... reading some of those stories out loud is kind of embarrassing... Maybe that's why those British actors are so good at playing super villains - they're used to reading Shakespeare and so they're able to take that corny Silver Age dialogue and make it sound credible....

1 hour ago, fantastic_four said:

behind his extreme innovation with character concept.

Well, their extreme innovation and character concept....

1 hour ago, fantastic_four said:

 I suppose I can't even criticize his plots since he didn't write them and left them up to the artists,

I don't know...I give Stan credit for his part in the plot process... he didn't always just leave it in the hands of the artist. Sure, there are the stories of him saying, "What if the Fantastic Four battled 'God'" and of course Kirby came back with the Galactus saga (and the Silver Surfer), but there are plenty of stories of Stan regularly having story conference's with the artists to brainstorm ideas.

My belief is that even if Kirby heard 3 Stan Lee story ideas and rejected them all, Stan took part in the creative process.

1 hour ago, fantastic_four said:

but the real problem there is that Stan's "Marvel Method" sucks.  Writers need to write everything, not just come up with a story and leave it up to the artists to work out like Stan did.

It sucks when the artist's aren't creative, thats for sure - but isn't that what comics SHOULD be about? The writing done in the form of artwork?

Stan's great strength, to me, was as an editor. To brainstorm ideas, and even come up with some, but to let the great talent (particularly Ditko and Kirby) cut loose and paint the real picture.

The problem is, Lee thought that could work with anyone and everyone.... but instead it just became, a regurgitation of what had been done before.

 

 

[Prince Namor]

1 hour ago, fantastic_four said:

And the height of that was what he did on Fantastic Four with the Thing.  The interaction between Thing and Johnny was probably the highlight of Silver Age dialogue, and lines like "IT'S CLOBBERIN' TIME!" long outlived Stan's actual time at Marvel.

Yeah, that was good stuff. Ben Grimm is one of the great unheralded characters of the Marvel Universe, but really not even a part of it right now...

[jsilverjanet]

46 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Yeah, that was good stuff. Ben Grimm is one of the great unheralded characters of the Marvel Universe, but really not even a part of it right now...

I liked what was done with Earth X and how he was a bit of a hero (of the remaining Fantastic Four)

[Bosco685]

[kimik]

I wonder how hard the competition opening this weekend and the next will hit Homecoming's numbers? Next weekend we see Dunkirk and Valerian open which will divert more movie goers $$$. WW and GotG2 benefitted from a lack of viable competition/big budget busts (POS/PotC 5 and Transformers 5). It does not look like Homecoming will have the same scheduling benefit.

[Gatsby77]

Saw it last night and was surprised how much I enjoyed it.

_Really_ fun, and second only to Spider-Man 2 for me among the six films.

Also:

- I agree that the Sekovia Accords don't yet apply to Spider-Man, because his actions are still mostly local -- rather than international -- in scope. And also, supervision by Stark may count. And thought it was cool that Peter et. al. were learning about the Accords in civics class.

- Impressed that even though I'm a hardcore comics fan, I went into this movie not knowing about

Spoiler

The Shocker, Scorpion, Cap, or Pepper

- and as a testament to how well-written this was -- it's a _hell_ of a lot harder to make The Vulture a compelling villain compared to Doc Ock, esp. when you don't have the love-for-Mary Jane (or Gwen Stacy) as a crutch of a sub-plot. Sort of like how it's really hard to write a good Superman comic, because he's basically a god. That they managed to make me root for The freakin' Vulture blew my mind.

- Still trying to wrap my head around this being co-written by John Francis Daley (i.e., Sam from Freaks and Geeks). Had no idea he also wrote Horrible Bosses 1 & 2.

- Also -- yes -- Bendis is a far better writer than Stan Lee. Sure, the hate is justified for the abomination that is "One More Day," but his run on Daredevil alone is _by far_ the best treatment that character's ever had. Just like it's okay to acknowledge that Frank Miller's art on Daredevil trumped that of Everett's or even Romita's, I'm perfectly comfortable in choosing Bendis over Lee. Yes - they were writing for different times and different audiences -- and Bendis had the advantage of standing on the shoulders of giants, but the level of plotting and sophistication brings Bendis to bear vs. Lee is almost laughable.

[paperheart]

Any notion this will do much more than $300MM domestic have been squashed.   Can international carry it past GOTG2?  Certainly not without a favorable China release date.

[zosocane]

I saw it last night.  First, I am a huge Spidey fan, but I will call it how I see it.  So ... 6 out of 10 for me.  The first 70% of the film bored me, and the -script and director were to blame.  Too much going on, too much banter, too much Ned Leeds, too much Tony Stark, not enough May, etc.  What was Flash Thompson's purpose?  It just seemed unbalanced from a story-telling perspective.  The last 30% -- starting when Liz introduced her dad to Peter -- was really good, and saved the film.  That said, Holland and Keaton were outstanding, and the franchise should be on a good foundation.  But i would love to see a different director.  I still think the first 3 Raimi films are better, but this effort was better than both Webb films which were disastrous.

[Straw-Man]

1 hour ago, paperheart said:

Any notion this will do much more than $300MM domestic have been squashed.   Can international carry it past GOTG2?  Certainly not without a favorable China release date.

300mm sounds just about right.

[oakman29]

On 7/11/2017 at 8:13 AM, jsilverjanet said:

For those who have this movie in their top 5, I am not sure what was so special about it. It was an okay movie and if not for Keaton it would have been subpar.

 

i really can't recall a moment where I felt "that's Spider-Man!"

 

Agree!  I just finished watching the movie, and I thought it was horrible.

[piper]

4 hours ago, oakman29 said:

Agree!  I just finished watching the movie, and I thought it was horrible.

[Bosco685]

After that 73% Friday-to-Friday drop, Spidey picked up slightly over the weekend.

FORBES.COM: What 'Spider-Man's Awful 73% Friday-to-Friday Plummet Means For Sony, Marvel, And Superhero Films

Quote

Things quickly turned sour for the Sony-Marvel co-pro yesterday when the grosses fell off a cliff, tumbling 73.2 percent from the first Friday’s $50.8 million tally to an estimated $13.6 million on the second. That’s one of the worst Friday-to-Friday drops the 16-movie Marvel Cinematic Universe has ever seen—only Avengers: Age of Ultron and Captain America: Civil War fared worse—and it's by far the worst for any of Sony’s 6 Spider-Man movies. Even the heavily front-loaded and relatively poorly reviewed Spider-Man 3 fell by a lesser margin on its second Friday.

 

What the numbers may be indicating is that the quality of the film was less important than the mainstream audience’s inertia about and even resistance to going out for yet another Spider-Man movie. The best made and marketed movie in the world isn't going to attract ticket buyers if they've grown indifferent to what feels like the same old thing all over again. That's happened in the past several months with the Pirates of the Caribbean, Alien, Cars, Despicable Me, and The Mummy franchises. If it's not enough to stick Tom Cruise, one of Hollywood's few remaining superstars, into a picture that feels like a warmed-over version of what we've already seen before, then there's probably not much else that can be done to generate excitement for an aging franchise.

DEADLINE: SPIDER-MAN: HOMECOMING Slides Estimated To Slide 61%

Quote

Sony/Marvel’s Spider-Man: Homecoming is estimated to file $45.3M in weekend 2 which is much lower than the industry expected, but its 61% slide is on par with the second weekend declines of Amazing Spider-Man 2 (-61%) and Spider-Man 3 (-62%). Homecoming‘s second weekend dollar-wise is the third best after Spider-Man ($71.4M) and Spider-Man 3 ($58.1M) and slightly ahead of Spider-Man 2 ($45.1M). Thanks to its solid business during the week, the pic’s $208.3M running domestic cume by today will outstrip the lifetime U.S./Canada take of the previous title Amazing Spider-Man 2 ($202.9M).

 

Through Sunday, Homecoming will be pacing 13% behind Spider-Man 3 which finaled at $336.5M domestic. On Friday, RelishMix reported continued wattage on social with the view counts for its top 25 spots on YouTube still in the 95k-200k range per day which is strong for the superhero genre. Robert Downey Jr. is still adding a consistent +24k new fans a day on Instagram and continues to plug the movie with Stan Lee. Tom Holland is also hot on Instagram with 2.6M followers and adding 74k new fans per day, all week long.

 

[kimik]

Interesting. So even the MCU involvement did not really turn things around for the Spidey franchise? I think Spider-Man has become the Marvel equivalent to Superman. A property that is still valuable but not as big as it used to be.

Based on the comments here, it seems like the jury is out on the movie as well. i wonder if catering to a younger market with the casting choices was a mistake as the film is not resonating with the older crowds like the first two movies did?

[piper]

36 minutes ago, kimik said:

Interesting. So even the MCU involvement did not really turn things around for the Spidey franchise? I think Spider-Man has become the Marvel equivalent to Superman. A property that is still valuable but not as big as it used to be.

Based on the comments here, it seems like the jury is out on the movie as well. i wonder if catering to a younger market with the casting choices was a mistake as the film is not resonating with the older crowds like the first two movies did?

Have you seen it yet?  It's worth a watch.

[Bosco685]

Remaining Release Schedule:

- Belgium: 19 July 2017

- Spain: 28 July 2017

- Japan: 7 August 2017(Tokyo) (premiere)

- Japan: 11 August 2017

- China: August 2017 (??)

Edited July 16, 2017 by Bosco685