Ebay Seller with undisclosed amateur pressing that damages comics

[mdean2437]

I have recently bought a raw comic from a rather big Ebay Dealer. I and had it sent directly from seller to a well known and respected professional paper conservationist/presser/restorer. I received an email from the presser and they told me about poor amateurish pressing that had been done. It had water damage from over humidification. the seller is probably the biggest seller of raw silver/bronze age keys I know of on ebay (no reserve type auctions, buy it nows not included). They do a lot of 99 cent no reserve auctions..

 

I am not sure what is the best way to handle this. I have always believed that a seller has a responsibility to disclose whether the book has been pressed or not. I think it is even worse that you are selling your experiments undisclosed. We are not talking cheap books. I would hate to know people are out here buying this , but how can i say for sure it was him. Maybe he bought it that way? He does sell restored books but does disclose at least some of the restoration, if not all (giving him the benefit of doubt).

 

I contacted the seller after I won said auction, and asked his opinion whether a pressing of comic would help. I even told him that it would be no big deal either way just didn't want to waste money on being pressed if didn't need it. He said he had no idea, but it probably been pressed (shrugs shoulders). Even knowing it probably had pressed I decided to send it to the presser so they could evaluate the book and look for restoration (I was worried I have many ebay burns). FYI the presser already had a bunch of book of mine and was just squeezing another book in on my order .

 

 

I would hate to accuse the seller of this and be wrong. That is why I haven't named him. I would be more than surprised if he was NOT pressing his comics. Still I have no real proof and can't bring myself to mess with a man's livelihood unless I am 100% sure.

 

I have bought other books from seller that I have not had anyone evaluate. I may send them to a separate presser and ask them to give me their opinion on whether they have been pressed. They do not look like they would benefit from a pressing, as those type of defects are gone. coincidentally I am quite sure 1 or 2 has a little water stain. I wonder how much I would have to pay for this type of service? Even then would it be enough proof or me to condemn the man's business?

 

 

I really think the seller, is pressing his books and in some instance doing damage without disclosing the damage or pressing. Since CGC does not count this as restoration does the seller really have obligation to tell me? Well for my business he does. I am done with him. I keep saying I am done with Ebay, but I keep going back. I have a patience issue!

 

Any advice? Am I being too harsh? What are somethingsI should look for. I should have a good scanner (board recommend) in the next few days is there anyone on the board that might could see damage via scans from a bad press job? To be clear I am not asking for a refund from the seller. I just want to warn other buyers and leave a negative. I would also like to add the seller to any "do not buy from" list on this site. Again, I just can not do that in good conscious until I know for fact.

[DavidTheDavid]

I'd either phrase any feedback carefully as you are surmising that the seller is pressing books, or just ask him outright if the book was pressed. I'd also want to return it myself.

[HighStakesComics]

Man, you seem like you mean well, but you are holding this guy to a higher standard than every major auction house and 3rd party grader of comic book literature. Maybe you should just slip your press guy's business card in with the comic when you return it to him?

[mdean2437]

I'd either phrase any feedback carefully as you are surmising that the seller is pressing books, or just ask him outright if the book was pressed. I'd also want to return it myself.

 

I decided to eat the cost. i don't want to make this about the money. I am more worried about the other buyers than my money. It was a few hundred dollar book, but it won't break the bank. I prefer to stop any shady dealer. I think the minute I get money/refunds involved my argument becomes less valid (ie buyer remorse). They do not claim a grade and tells you to review picture and decide for yourself. Which I understand their point, until I purchased their experiment. They are being paid to learn how to press at collector's expense and I don't like it. I think scam artist is the #1 problem with the comic/collectible industry right now/. NOt saying they are scam artist, hopefully it was a one off, at worse they just ethically challenged. A lot people don't believe pressing needs to be disclose because CGC does not mention it.

 

All I really want is proof. Proof that it was one time accident, and they are not pressing books. or i would like proof the are pressing book and at times screwing them up without disclosing damage. I know it is weird but I am more worried about all the other buyers than I am my money. PLus they amount they are selling, there is no way these book will not surface on the forums here. All it takes a couple of novices buyer like me to sell them unwittingly on the boards. I know it sounds like a stretch, but I think the comic community is much smaller than people realize.

 

I did ask him outright if he pressed the book. Before I paid him I messaged him and told him I was about to pay but was not sure if I was going to have it sent to me or directly to my presser. I wanted to know if it had been pressed so I could make a shipping decision. I even told him no big deal either way, strictly a business decision (didn't want to waste money). This is paraphrasing of course... He stated something along the lines that he did not know if it had been pressed, but then added that it most likely had, but he had no idea.

 

I have already shipped the book to CGC, I am sure it will be hammered, as it deserves .I will most likely sell the book on the boards, and I can promise you the ad will state the water stain was a product of a poor press job. . The presser didn't think it was worth it to send to CGC due to the damage so it may be worse than I am imagining ( i have never physically seen book). This presser usually only deals with higher (probably a minimum of $500) and above valued books. SO maybe that is why they said it. Without it being CGC'd I had no idea how to sell the book though, it is one I do NOT want in my collection. I also felt like it was the only way to sell it honestly. I am a novice and am afraid I would screw somebody over. I feel like a CGC grade, disclosure of the the bad press, and good press I am covered. Make sense?

[mdean2437]

Man, you seem like you mean well, but you are holding this guy to a higher standard than every major auction house and 3rd party grader of comic book literature. Maybe you should just slip your press guy's business card in with the comic when you return it to him?

 

 

That is a fair point. See I really don't want to hold him to a higher standard, that is not fair of me. If it would not have been amateur hour on the pressing of the comics I wouldn't even really care. I mean heck it would have saved me pressing money. Still if you are pressing your comics yourself, and damage them you disclose the damage.

 

I buy from quite a few places that don't mention/disclose pressing, but i have their books sent off many of times and never had this happen. They also disclose water stains, Still I guess I am overreacting.

 

 

I am not asking for a refund though. It was a no reserve 99 cent auction. I feel like he should have disclosed the water stain but I didn't want tot make this about the money. Now I think I will just let it go. I get worked up sometimes This is why I brought it to the boards! Thanks!

[HighStakesComics]

The best press job in the world wont knock out a moisture stain. If you aren't happy with a grade best to return it and move on. If you know how to spot a poor undisclosed press job, water stain notwithstanding, you should buy those books and send them to your presser. The end result can be an easy bump.

 

I like the quote about measuring manhood btw.

[mdean2437]

The best press job in the world wont knock out a moisture stain. If you aren't happy with a grade best to return it and move on. If you know how to spot a poor undisclosed press job, water stain notwithstanding, you should buy those books and send them to your presser. The end result can be an easy bump.

 

I like the quote about measuring manhood btw.

 

Yeah I am just going to let it go. I may message they guy and explain the problem with the comic. Tell him I do not want a refund and tell him he may want to double check his other comics for similar problems. For all I know he bought a collection form an amature presser and has no idea.

 

the comic is sitting at CGC. It was sent with my other books a few days ago I noticed CGC hit fme or $700 on my 1st invoice so it is there.

[Red84]

If he's a big time dealer there's a very good chance that he bought the book from someone else. Don't assume he's the one who pressed it.

[Bomber-Bob]

Trust me, I think what happened is terrible but it probably happens more than we think. This is not a story about a bad seller but a bad presser. I think you should mention the seller and let him come here and talk about it. Question to the OP, why did you bring this up on the Boards if you were not going to name names ? What were your expectations from the Boards ?

[mdean2437]

If he's a big time dealer there's a very good chance that he bought the book from someone else. Don't assume he's the one who pressed it.

 

Gotcha. I have no idea how big his business is, but that does seem logical. He is constantly selling raw silver age/bronze age keys/semi keys. I mean every week. I don't know how he finds that many! Wish I could.

 

 

I have decided no negative feedback, and to only send him a PM and let him know about the comic. I think he should take a closer look at his comics.

 

 

[youmechooz]

If he's a big time dealer there's a very good chance that he bought the book from someone else. Don't assume he's the one who pressed it.

 

Gotcha. I have no idea how big his business is, but that does seem logical. He is constantly selling raw silver age/bronze age keys/semi keys. I mean every week. I don't know how he finds that many! Wish I could.

 

 

I have decided no negative feedback, and to only send him a PM and let him know about the comic. I think he should take a closer look at his comics.

 

Whats his ebay handle? Dont worry, his business will not take a hit. Cgc board members are less than 0.0001% of comic transactions on ebay.

[mdean2437]

Trust me, I think what happened is terrible but it probably happens more than we think. This is not a story about a bad seller but a bad presser. I think you should mention the seller and let him come here and talk about it. Question to the OP, why did you bring this up on the Boards if you were not going to name names ? What were your expectations from the Boards ?

 

No real expectations. A little venting, a little advice. I was not sure the best way to handle it. As some of the posters pointed doubt I am overreacting. I do not want to be known as @$$hole that is hard to deal with. Reputations work both ways. Even as a buyer I care about my reputation.

 

 

Do you think it would be fair to name names if I am not a 100% sure? Comics are my hobby, it is livelihood. I would hate to take food off a man table based on an assumption. Does that make sense? I am just going to give the guy the benefit of doubt. As other have pointed out most auction houses, dealers do not disclose pressing ( I wish they would).

 

Here are the quote form the presser. I bought two book and had them sent to my presser last minute to be included in the order they already had. They talk about both book but I chopped the verbiage out about the other book as it does not pertain to this seller. So it make it a little weird to read. Not sure if you care about reading the presser report, some may find it interesting.

 

Presser comments about two book below. I cut out the verbiage from the other book (as noted above) and added words on sentence to make it make sense. I would also state the person who evaluated/pressed this book is a classically trained and educated paper conservationist.

 

The Spotlight had previous attempts at amateur pressing..

While cover was not warped on Spotlight 5, the pressing was poor and I had to fix that which I did .Both covers lay beautifully flat but I could not do too much about the water droplet staining which is faint. this was caused by the over humidification in one of the pressing attempts.

[mdean2437]

If he's a big time dealer there's a very good chance that he bought the book from someone else. Don't assume he's the one who pressed it.

 

Gotcha. I have no idea how big his business is, but that does seem logical. He is constantly selling raw silver age/bronze age keys/semi keys. I mean every week. I don't know how he finds that many! Wish I could.

 

 

I have decided no negative feedback, and to only send him a PM and let him know about the comic. I think he should take a closer look at his comics.

 

Whats his ebay handle? Dont worry, his business will not take a hit. Cgc board members are less than 0.0001% of comic transactions on ebay.

 

I just don't feel right about it at this time. If anyone is an Ebay buyer and would like me to send them a list of people of whom I do not plan on buying from again off ebay just PM me. . I am really hoping it was an honest mistake, and he didn't press it multiple times..

[rjpb]

Unfortunately, I've found that even reputable dealers will sometimes miss or ignore moisture stains that run through a book, but have been pressed and/or didn't leave an overtly obvious tide line on the front, particularly if the book is only a 4.0-5.0. Not damage caused by pressing, but pre-existing damage that either due to pressing, or time squeezed in a box, has been flattened out, but can still be seen upon examination.

 

Even if the damage was factored into the grade by the seller, it should be noted, the same as things like interior tape, detached coves and centerfolds, and anything else not obvious in a scan and not typical for the grade.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

 

I decided to eat the cost. i don't want to make this about the money. I am more worried about the other buyers than my money. It was a few hundred dollar book, but it won't break the bank. I prefer to stop any shady dealer. I think the minute I get money/refunds involved my argument becomes less valid (ie buyer remorse). They do not claim a grade and tells you to review picture and decide for yourself.

 

All I really want is proof. Proof that it was one time accident, and they are not pressing books. or i would like proof the are pressing book and at times screwing them up without disclosing damage. I know it is weird but I am more worried about all the other buyers than I am my money. PLus they amount they are selling, there is no way these book will not surface on the forums here. All it takes a couple of novices buyer like me to sell them unwittingly on the boards. I know it sounds like a stretch, but I think the comic community is much smaller than people realize.

 

I have already shipped the book to CGC, I am sure it will be hammered, as it deserves .I will most likely sell the book on the boards, and I can promise you the ad will state the water stain was a product of a poor press job. It is a Marvel Spotlight #5 expected to be between 8.5/9.0 prior to water damage information. I am thinking 7.0 -7.5 at best now maybe worse. The presser didn't think it was worth it to send to CGC due to the damage so it may be worse than I am imagining ( i have never physically seen book). This presser usually only deals with higher (probably a minimum of $500) and above valued books. SO maybe that is why they said it. Without it being CGC'd I had no idea how to sell the book though, it is one I do NOT want in my collection. I also felt like it was the only way to sell it honestly. I am a novice and am afraid I would screw somebody over. I feel like a CGC grade, disclosure of the the bad press, and good press I am covered. Make sense?

 

Sounds like all_things_comics , especially with regularly selling keys and restored keys.

 

I really don't understand the throwing good money after bad by sending this to CGC. Best bet would have been to return for refund.

[mdean2437]

 

 

Sounds like all_things_comics , especially with regularly selling keys and restored keys.

 

I really don't understand the throwing good money after bad by sending this to CGC. Best bet would have been to return for refund.

 

Good guess but wrong. I bought a FF 48 from him that he stated he thought was a 8.5 but states to use the pics and grade it yourself. A different presser I use stated that it was a 6.5 (he pressed the book) I should have asked him if he thought is was already pressed. Oh well... I knew it was not an 8.5, but I originally over graded in mind because of the suggestion (still my fault). think that guy is doing the normal ebay raw sales thing (overgrading). No biggie he is not guaranteeing grades.

[NuffSaid57]

Based on my reading of the above I think you are making the right call to just let the whole thing go and letting CGC determine the affect of it all on grade. Was the moisture damage sufficient that you noted it before you sent it to the presser? Were there obvious tide lines, or rippling that the seller should have noted? If the damage was not noticed by you upon your inspection prior to sending to the presser it is possible the seller may have not noted it either.

 

That said I think anyone selling any book that is expected to sell for higher value ($500 in this case) has a duty to closely examine the book and disclose ANYTHING not readily apparent in the scan that could affect the grade. In my case I define higher value as $10 or more with the vast majority of the books I have sold going from $10 - $50. To my way of thinking the primary purpose of CGC grading is for an unbiased third party to do the detailed examination that results in the grade of higher value books. It is not worth the risk to me to either buy or sell higher value (in my case >= about $150) books that have not been graded, which I am not able to closely examine in hand prior to purchase. If I take that risk and get undisclosed defects I will either return, or negotiate an appropriate discount if I think just made a mistake, or more likely just never consider buying from that seller again.

 

As to undisclosed pressing I think for better or worse that train left the station long ago. For instance I have a strong suspicion that many of the books I purchased from Robert Bell way back in 1973 were run through a dry mount press. Since CGC and many others are not disclosing the large volume of pressing they are aware of I think anyone that does disclose is putting themselves at a competitive disadvantage to those who do not.

 

What I really think is all sellers have a duty to disclose any defects that could reasonably be expected to negatively impact the grade, especially those not readily apparent in the scans. I am not sure if it is important if the defect is from a botched amateur press, or a professional press that leaves a book a little undesirably flat.

 

 

[mdean2437]

Based on my reading of the above I think you are making the right call to just let the whole thing go and letting CGC determine the affect of it all on grade. Was the moisture damage sufficient that you noted it before you sent it to the presser? Were there obvious tide lines, or rippling that the seller should have noted? If the damage was not noticed by you upon your inspection prior to sending to the presser it is possible the seller may have not noted it either.

 

That said I think anyone selling any book that is expected to sell for higher value ($500 in this case) has a duty to closely examine the book and disclose ANYTHING not readily apparent in the scan that could affect the grade. In my case I define higher value as $10 or more with the vast majority of the books I have sold going from $10 - $50. To my way of thinking the primary purpose of CGC grading is for an unbiased third party to do the detailed examination that results in the grade of higher value books. It is not worth the risk to me to either buy or sell higher value (in my case >= about $150) books that have not been graded, which I am not able to closely examine in hand prior to purchase. If I take that risk and get undisclosed defects I will either return, or negotiate an appropriate discount if I think just made a mistake, or more likely just never consider buying from that seller again.

 

As to undisclosed pressing I think for better or worse that train left the station long ago. For instance I have a strong suspicion that many of the books I purchased from Robert Bell way back in 1973 were run through a dry mount press. Since CGC and many others are not disclosing the large volume of pressing they are aware of I think anyone that does disclose is putting themselves at a competitive disadvantage to those who do not.

 

What I really think is all sellers have a duty to disclose any defects that could reasonably be expected to negatively impact the grade, especially those not readily apparent in the scans. I am not sure if it is important if the defect is from a botched amateur press, or a professional press that leaves a book a little undesirably flat.

 

[/quote

 

I have never laid hands on the book. I had the seller mail it straight to the presser. The more I talk to people the more I think it was an honest mistake. He seems to deal with a lot of volume so it could have easily been overlooked. He may just be glancing at the books. He doesn't really give a grader per say. I feel like if someone says I starting an auction at 99 cents no reserve, no grade bid with what you are comfortable with, based information you have, it takes away any right i have to ask for a refund. If he had known about the water stain I would have expected it disclosed, as he disclose tears and other things not that easy to see via pics.

 

Even though it will not change I would prefer people not classically trained/educated to disclose if the pressed their books. If they meet that criteria I do not want to buy their pressed books. I am sure most collectors would feel the same way.

I would buy any book Joey, Matt or Susan pressed. I feel confident I am not getting a book that may have some damage that the naked eye cannot see. The type of damage than can shorten a book's life.

[mdean2437]

I was wrong about 1 thing. He only sells unrestored comics (his ebay about me page states). I thought for sure had sole some restored books that he had declared restored. There was nothing with selling restored book with disclosure so I did not see that as a negative anyway.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I received an email from the presser and they told me about poor amateurish pressing that had been done. It had water damage from over humidification. .

 

 

How do you know the professional is correct in his/her assessment?

 

(Full disclosure: I am not the original presser. )

 

PS. That's an interesting sigline.