• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Fantastic Comics #3 Conflict of Restoration

94 posts in this topic

CBCS felt my Action 13 was also trimmed. I told them Kenny did the work and to talk to Matt Nelson so he could CONFIRM it wasn't. I think they need to study the new restoration methods with leafcasting a bit more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love that book. Do you have a full size scan? I agree with the above, if value is what you are after, then CGC is the way to go. The trimming is a killer and in my experience selling, buying and watching auctions, CGC still sells for more than CBCS.

 

+1

 

And this thread pretty much cements the notion that all this new company is really any use for is putting restored books into blue holders for prospective sellers.

 

-J.

 

And you would not have said the same thing if the grade and label descriptions were exactly the same?

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CBCS felt my Action 13 was also trimmed. I told them Kenny did the work and to talk to Matt Nelson so he could CONFIRM it wasn't. I think they need to study the new restoration methods with leafcasting a bit more.

 

They (Steve) has reached out to have this issue corrected , apparently him and Mike from hero restoration had a long discussion about the entire process. I'm about to talk to him in the next few days to see exactly how he plans to regrade and note this book. Will keep you posted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Detecting trimming has always been about a clean NEW edge on an old book that has lived in the world lomg enough that it should not have such a clean edge. So calling it trimmed when it just actually WAS trimmed fairly recently doesn't strike me as so bad. But it seems Kennys leaf casting process which is pretty commonly done nowadays , or at least more and more, doesn't seem to be that well known at the other company. That feels like a larger issue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since Kenny works alongside CGC, it seems like they have an advantage in knowing what books are done by him.

The edges are trimmed. Perhaps not trimmed from the original size, but is trimming paper to the original size still not trimming?

Very nice restoration work. Other than that, I have no dog in the fight, but it seems unfair to allow threads that knock another company but not ones that might put them in a better light.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread was not made to knock any company down. Before this tread was even considered an attempt to reach out to the company and solve this was made on a few occasions. Unfortunately those attempts were not noticed until the post went up. Now to be fair the other company has agreed to do its part and look at the book again, with the intention after clarification to relabel the restoration, that's where we stand as of now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread was not made to knock any company down. Before this tread was even considered an attempt to reach out to the company and solve this was made on a few occasions. Unfortunately those attempts were not noticed until the post went up. Now to be fair the other company has agreed to do its part and look at the book again, with the intention after clarification to relabel the restoration, that's where we stand as of now.

 

 

I understand your intent, but there are people taking pot shots at them. Had those people been singing their praises, I suspect you wouldn't be allowed to read this post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the designation should be Extensive Professional, leaf casted, CT, pieces added, staples replaced, cleaned, trimmed.

 

Great job, but huge amount of restoration. I don't think anything thats leaf casted can be anything but extensive, as its absolutely the most intrusive thing you can possibly do to a comic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the designation should be Extensive Professional, leaf casted, CT, pieces added, staples replaced, cleaned, trimmed.

 

Great job, but huge amount of restoration. I don't think anything thats leaf casted can be anything but extensive, as its absolutely the most intrusive thing you can possibly do to a comic.

 

Agreed with the fact its extensive, no doubt but Not sure about having the word trimming included at all in the label, unless its in the traditional way we all understand trimming to be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the designation should be Extensive Professional, leaf casted, CT, pieces added, staples replaced, cleaned, trimmed.

 

Great job, but huge amount of restoration. I don't think anything thats leaf casted can be anything but extensive, as its absolutely the most intrusive thing you can possibly do to a comic.

 

Agreed with the fact its extensive, no doubt but Not sure about having the word trimming included at all in the label, unless its in the traditional way we all understand trimming to be.

 

Yeah I can understand there's a valid difference of opinion, I'm just going on the basis of what has been done to the comic, stage by stage.

 

Disassembled? Yes

Cleaned? Yes

Pieces added? Yes

Leaf Casted? Yes

Staples replaced? Yes (albeit with the original staples they've still been taken out and replaced back in)

CT? Yes

Trimmed? Yes (even though it may be casted paper that's trimmed back, its still absolutely a comic with trimmed edges as it will never have the exact edges that it left the printers with, therefore trimmed n my eyes)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the designation should be Extensive Professional, leaf casted, CT, pieces added, staples replaced, cleaned, trimmed.

 

Great job, but huge amount of restoration. I don't think anything thats leaf casted can be anything but extensive, as its absolutely the most intrusive thing you can possibly do to a comic.

 

Agreed with the fact its extensive, no doubt but Not sure about having the word trimming included at all in the label, unless its in the traditional way we all understand trimming to be.

 

Yeah I can understand there's a valid difference of opinion, I'm just going on the basis of what has been done to the comic, stage by stage.

 

Disassembled? Yes

Cleaned? Yes

Pieces added? Yes

Leaf Casted? Yes

Staples replaced? Yes (albeit with the original staples they've still been taken out and replaced back in)

CT? Yes

Trimmed? Yes (even though it may be casted paper that's trimmed back, its still absolutely a comic with trimmed edges as it will never have the exact edges that it left the printers with, therefore trimmed n my eyes)

 

I have to agree with this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually the more I think about this the more valid having trimmed on the label seems to be in this instance.

 

Mainly because you can have a comic thats leafcasted yet has nothing added to the edges, for instance just to reinforce the spine, in that instance its not trimmed and shouldn't be classed as such.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Adding a margin, either through the more traditional grafting method or leafcasting, has been pretty much the standard MO for professionally restoring comics for several decades. Trimming off those edges, right up to the point where the original cover starts, is how it's done. This is nothing new. Obviously Brand-X thought it was one thing when it was really something else.

 

To be fair, a few years ago I submitted 2 SA keys to CGC (both having been SS'd by Stan Lee) that had been restored 15-20 years before. They both came back TRIMMED. I was livid. Fortunately the person who restored them was a young Matt Nelson. I called Matt, confirmed that they had not been trimmed, and mailed them to him (by this time CI was part of CGC). He was able to show the graders exactly what had been done and the TRIMMED notation was removed. Mistakes happen... they can be corrected.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Adding a margin, either through the more traditional grafting method or leafcasting, has been pretty much the standard MO for professionally restoring comics for several decades. Trimming off those edges, right up to the point where the original cover starts, is how it's done. This is nothing new. Obviously Brand-X thought it was one thing when it was really something else.

 

To be fair, a few years ago I submitted 2 SA keys to CGC (both having been SS'd by Stan Lee) that had been restored 15-20 years before. They both came back TRIMMED. I was livid. Fortunately the person who restored them was a young Matt Nelson. I called Matt, confirmed that they had not been trimmed, and mailed them to him (by this time CI was part of CGC). He was able to show the graders exactly what had been done and the TRIMMED notation was removed. Mistakes happen... they can be corrected.

 

So they each had a margin added and then trimmed back to the original paper? I don't think that's standard practice for restoring comics at all. You'd have had to have asked for that to be done.

 

The edges of the comic had been restored and then trimmed?

 

I agree with the original notation in that they are trimmed. JMHO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Adding a margin, either through the more traditional grafting method or leafcasting, has been pretty much the standard MO for professionally restoring comics for several decades. Trimming off those edges, right up to the point where the original cover starts, is how it's done. This is nothing new. Obviously Brand-X thought it was one thing when it was really something else.

 

To be fair, a few years ago I submitted 2 SA keys to CGC (both having been SS'd by Stan Lee) that had been restored 15-20 years before. They both came back TRIMMED. I was livid. Fortunately the person who restored them was a young Matt Nelson. I called Matt, confirmed that they had not been trimmed, and mailed them to him (by this time CI was part of CGC). He was able to show the graders exactly what had been done and the TRIMMED notation was removed. Mistakes happen... they can be corrected.

 

So they each had a margin added and then trimmed back to the original paper? I don't think that's standard practice for restoring comics at all. You'd have had to have asked for that to be done.

 

The edges of the comic had been restored and then trimmed?

 

I agree with the original notation in that they are trimmed. JMHO.

 

Yep, that's pretty standard when dealing with ragged, chipped edges (at least from what Matt told me and what I've seen on my restored books). Pieces would be grafted into the missing areas and then trimmed back to the original dimensions. Take a look at this All-Winners 4 that Kenny leafcasted for me. He did not trim it to exact dimensions because there is more work to do on it at a later date. The margins go right up to the original cover pieces.

 

AW2-After1.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh sorry yeah, I know all that.

 

I just read it like it was standard practice to redo the edges on restored books as an automatic thing. When it's not.

 

A full resto job like these examples will always have the edges trimmed back to the original paper.

 

I'm just conscious that its perfectly possible to have just a small amount of a comic leaf casted - say the spine or one glaring fault without adding anything to the original edges at all which then necessitates them being trimmed back to the level of the original material.

 

If a comic has extra paper added to it's edges and is then trimmed, it's a trimmed book.

 

That's my opinion, YMMV.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In fact, put it this way.

 

Say you have an AF15 with horrid marvel chipping, someone trims it to make it more presentable. It's now a trimmed comic. No argument there.

 

Ok, so then say it's leaf casted to add back the trimmed part to make it a whole cover again. The edge is trimmed in line with where it looks best.

 

It's been leaf casted but by some reckoning it's now not a trimmed comic?

 

Nope, it's been trimmed, it'll always have been trimmed, it should say it on the label.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In fact, put it this way.

 

Say you have an AF15 with horrid marvel chipping, someone trims it to make it more presentable. It's now a trimmed comic. No argument there.

 

Ok, so then say it's leaf casted to add back the trimmed part to make it a whole cover again. The edge is trimmed in line with where it looks best.

 

It's been leaf casted but by some reckoning it's now not a trimmed comic?

 

Nope, it's been trimmed, it'll always have been trimmed, it should say it on the label.

The problem with your analogy is that the AF 15 was not considered restored prior to the trimming. With leaf casting it will always be considered restored. So no matter what you do after the trimming is considered resto...right?

 

Well wrong actually. What if you then carefully tore the cover along the original trim line? The book would be downgraded heavily but would be a blue label with no mention of the trim job because CGC could not tell that it had ever been trimmed.

 

I think a lot of folks make assumptions about leaf-casting without really knowing what the process involves. It isn't exactly the same as reattaching paper. Certainly not the same as reattaching a piece of original paper to the book. Think of leaf casting as building out new liquid paper to fill missing areas. It that sense any trimming of the rebuilt areas is inconsequential as far as necessity to be notated on a grading label. That can be taken care by simply mention that leaf-casting occurred. Almost all leaf-casting requires trimming of the rebuilt areas, but never original paper, and therefore to list the book as trimmed is not only misleading but essentially redundant.

 

Furthermore the wonderful thing about leaf-casting, as opposed to older more invasive forms of resto, is that the cast areas are completely reversible. If you only want original paper just add water and the cast areas will fall away. So again, labeling the whole book as trimmed on the label is misleading, and labeling the leaf-casting procedure as trimmed is redundant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites