1st appearance of the real Domino 1 1

[Jaydogrules]

23 minutes ago, Dogsupreme said:

Ok. By that argument then STRANGE TALES #114 "technically" features the 1st SILVER AGE CAPTAIN AMERICA and not AVENGERS #4 since it predates #4. Even if he was not the "real" CAPTAIN AMERICA it is sold on the cover as such.

Not applicable since Cap's first appearance is Captain America Comics #1, and not either book you have posted above.  ("First SA Appearances" aren't "First Appearances" by any yardstick). The character, likeness and persona of Domino first appeared in NM 98.  The character, likeness and persona of Captain America first appeared in Cap Comics #1. Apple's and Oranges. 

-J.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Jaydogrules

[revat]

I look at it this way. What if there happened to be identical twins named Vanessa and Neena? And Vanessa was impersonating Neena for a few issues? 

When is the first time we see the real Neena in a comic? If they kept looking exactly alike even after they were revealed as twins, it would be issue 8. I would argue it should be issue 8 either way.  We have the benefit of hindsight.  No reason to overthink it

[Jaydogrules]

I agree. Let's keep it simple.  When's the first time we see the character "Domino"?  It's in NM 98.  On the cover even.  Announced in big bold lettering.  Period.  Cute narrative ret-cons that happen after the fact aside, that's all it boils down to.   

-J.

[Broke as a Joke]

Who's to say that the Domino that appears on the cover to NM 98 isn't the "real" Domino?  

[Lazyboy]

5 hours ago, Jaydogrules said:

I agree. Let's keep it simple.  When's the first time we see the character "Domino"?  It's in NM 98.  On the cover even.  Announced in big bold lettering.  Period.  Cute narrative ret-cons that happen after the fact aside, that's all it boils down to.   

-J.

Then ads are first appearances. Go Weeners!

Back to reality: those "cute narrative (ret-cons)" that take place between the covers are called stories. They're meant to be read and they are important, especially compared to covers.

It doesn't matter if an issue would be a character's 1st or 374th appearance; if it's an impostor, it's not that character.

[revat]

15 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Then ads are first appearances. Go Weeners!

Back to reality: those "cute narrative (ret-cons)" that take place between the covers are called stories. They're meant to be read and they are important, especially compared to covers.

It doesn't matter if an issue would be a character's 1st or 374th appearance; if it's an impostor, it's not that character.

agree, as I said earlier, imagine they're just twin sisters. Yes they look a like, but who am I ACTUALLY LOOKING at, regardless of who I THINK I'm looking at.  Comics are a visual medium.  When did I see this actual person in a storyline??

And its not like the reveal was an obvious retcon that happened 20 years later, all in the same time range and storyline.  and clearly the impostor type thing was not a foreign concept to them since they sort of did it with Cable/Stryfe

to me its X-force 8, 2nd place for NM 98 with faulty logic, 3rd place for Xforce 11 with Liefeld logic.

Edited May 4, 2017 by revat

[Jaydogrules]

53 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Then ads are first appearances. Go Weeners!

Back to reality: those "cute narrative (ret-cons)" that take place between the covers are called stories. They're meant to be read and they are important, especially compared to covers.

It doesn't matter if an issue would be a character's 1st or 374th appearance; if it's an impostor, it's not that character.

Fail.

You can't dispute the FACT that the character, persona, and identity of "Domino" first appears in NM 98, ON the cover, and IN the story, NOT in a cameo, or an "ad", so you you instead meander off into irrelevant, typically self-righteous nonsense.

Take your weak pump and dump dog and pony show somewhere else, nobody is buying here.  

-J.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Jaydogrules

[Lazyboy]

1 minute ago, revat said:

And its not like the reveal was an obvious retcon that happened 20 years later, all in the same time range and storyline.

This is an important point. Comics may be delivered in monthly installments, but they are still parts of a continuing story (we're discussing regular continuity Marvel here).

There's a huge difference between a creative team revealing that not all was what it seemed to be during their run and somebody writing a story that changes/invalidates something from 20 years earlier. Unless one thinks that plot twists and surprises shouldn't be allowed in storytelling.

Domino is the codename used by Neena Thurman. Neena Thurman had no presence in NM 98 through X-Force 7, despite her codename and likeness being used. Amazingly, although plotted by Liefeld, the pieces still actually fit the eventual reveal of "Domino" being an impostor.

"Domino" conveniently pops up near the end of NM 98 just in time to foil Deadpool's attack (Deadpool, Copycat and Tolliver are connected). The Cable Guide in X-Force 6 reveals that Domino has a "luck" power, but that power was never used or mentioned in any of the issues in which Copycat was impersonating her. Other than being able to fight and having a connection to Cable, Domino was a mystery with no character development (to be fair, this was a Liefeld book).

[Lazyboy]

18 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

Fail.

You can't dispute the FACT that the character, persona, and identity of "Domino" first appears in NM 98, ON the cover, and IN the story, NOT in a cameo, or an "ad", so you you instead meander off into irrelevant, typically self-righteous nonsense.

Take your weak pump and dump dog and pony show somewhere else, nobody is buying here.  

-J.

I know you love covers, but trying reading a story for once.

I can easily dispute the IDEA that "the character, persona, and identity of "Domino" first appears in NM 98" since only the character design appears, being used by another character.

What is Mystique's first appearance and why?

[divad]

It's a tough choice between Lazyboy and Jaydogrules . . . I don't see either of them as an authoritative end-all, but I have to go with revat here - XF8.

[Lazyboy]

1 minute ago, divad said:

It's a tough choice between Lazyboy and Jaydogrules . . . I don't see either of them as an authoritative end-all, but I have to go with revat here - XF8.

Of course it's X-Force 8. Do you think I was saying something different?

[Jaydogrules]

50 minutes ago, divad said:

It's a tough choice between Lazyboy and Jaydogrules . . . I don't see either of them as an authoritative end-all, but I have to go with revat here - XF8.

Or you could just go with Liefeld, who already clarified this for you pump and dumpers several weeks ago. 

-J.

[Broke as a Joke]

I guess it really doesn't matter as this gives people who are stuck with a case of early X-Force books a chance to sell through some copies.  X-Force 8 -- First Appearance of Domino in hazy flashback as told by Cable.  X-Force 11 -- First appearance of Domino in continuity in a horribly scripted Rob Liefeld story.

[Lazyboy]

34 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

Or you could just go with Liefeld, who already clarified this for you pump and dumpers several weeks ago. 

-J.

The wording he used does not suggest that NM 98 is the first appearance of Domino, but "Domino identity" is good wording for a shapeshifter's disguise.

What he wrote is incorrect anyway. The first reference to something being wrong with "Domino" was the letters page in X-Force 9. X-Force 11 contained the revelation that "Domino" was somebody named Vanessa who had infiltrated X-Force to gather information and the real Domino was a prisoner.

NM 98 is only the first depiction of Domino's likeness in a story. If Domino's first appearance is NM 98, then what is the first appearance of Copycat (Vanessa)?

 

[Dogsupreme]

Ok. I concede that. Then how about this then?

Edited May 5, 2017 by Dogsupreme

[divad]

18 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

Of course it's X-Force 8. Do you think I was saying something different?

No - I just couldn't find where you said it (thanks to our new system of quotes here).

[divad]

17 hours ago, Jaydogrules said:

Or you could just go with Liefeld, who already clarified this for you pump and dumpers several weeks ago. 

-J.

Liefeld - Schmiefeld - lousy artist at best . . .

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 5/4/2017 at 4:25 PM, Lazyboy said:

Then ads are first appearances. Go Weeners!

Back to reality: those "cute narrative (ret-cons)" that take place between the covers are called stories. They're meant to be read and they are important, especially compared to covers.

It doesn't matter if an issue would be a character's 1st or 374th appearance; if it's an impostor, it's not that character.

Gwenpool made me rethink my position about first appearances, because I've never been in the ads-are-appearances camp; it's always been an appearance in a story. But my instinct regarding Gwenpool was that even though there was no story tied to her in Deadpool's Secret Secret Wars, the cover was her first appearance.

So I've refined my position to separate marketing content from creative content. An "appearance" in comic collecting terminology, to me, implies a depiction (or being a presence, in the case of characters that were in the shadows, only contributed a dialogue bubble, etc.) in creative content (stories, covers, pin-ups, etc.) rather than marketing content (ads, editorials, news pieces, and previews). This distinction I think helps clarify why my gut told me that previews shouldn't be considered appearances when the same thing is printed in those (with few exceptions) compared to the actual comic book. While I certainly think that there's a market for those (and, as an aside, the market never decides what a character's first appearance is, but the market does decide what is generally a desirable thing to own by voting with dollars), I think that those are secondary to the actual creative content, because without the content to be sold, the marketing is irrelevant and pointless. 

[Lazyboy]

Gwenpool was literally a joke that they later turned into an actual character (which is even more of a joke, but that's Marvel ).

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

2 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

Gwenpool was literally a joke that they later turned into an actual character (which is even more of a joke, but that's Marvel ).

Yeah, but that's besides the point.