Are signature series worth getting and should artists charge more for CGC book?

[dupont2005]

(I really can't believe it's 2015, and the SS program STILL has to be defended...on the CGC board no less.)

 

It doesn't have to be defended. Demanding talent change their signature policy to suit your habits does though.

[dupont2005]

If you don't care about resale value then what does it matter if you get a book thrown in a yellow label? Getting a book signed without the SS process makes total sense to me if you plan on keeping it for your own collection. In fact you could even slab it later on and get the green label and still be happy.

 

In other words....

 

"What I collect rocks, what you collect sucks."

 

That's very shortsighted of you.

 

What if I don't personally witness the signature being applied, since I couldn't be where the creator was? I would want that authentication by someone who DID witness it.

 

What if I forget, 20 years from now, when and how I got a book signed? If it's not slabbed, and I forget, how will I know it's an authentic signature?

 

"Well, you could get a photo with the creator!" What if I misplace the photo? What if I don't like taking photos? What if I don't record the details of the signing?

 

What if I want it graded?

 

What if I want to participate in the registry?

 

What if I want to show off my graded book to others?

 

The slab addresses all those issues, quite nicely, and none of which has to do with resale.

Pay for the sig?

 

You could show off a green label, you could show off a personalized yellow label, you could show off an unslabbed signed comic, you could keep better records and not forget things.

 

What if you don't like photos, what if creator in question doesn't like unpersonalized sigs? Is your preference any more reasonable than his? When we're talking about him gifting you something, I think not.

[NP_Gresham]

I doubt conventions have much at all to do with eBay sales. I also suspect the people buying runs on eBay and the people spending hundreds and thousands just to attend a convention are not the same people. I buy comics, and am absolutely not interested in paying to attend a convention. That's money that could go toward buying comics.

This

I would rather buy books than waste money on needless travel expenses.

[seanfingh]

If you don't care about resale value then what does it matter if you get a book thrown in a yellow label? Getting a book signed without the SS process makes total sense to me if you plan on keeping it for your own collection. In fact you could even slab it later on and get the green label and still be happy.

 

In other words....

 

"What I collect rocks, what you collect sucks."

 

That's very shortsighted of you.

 

What if I don't personally witness the signature being applied, since I couldn't be where the creator was? I would want that authentication by someone who DID witness it.

 

What if I forget, 20 years from now, when and how I got a book signed? If it's not slabbed, and I forget, how will I know it's an authentic signature?

 

"Well, you could get a photo with the creator!" What if I misplace the photo? What if I don't like taking photos? What if I don't record the details of the signing?

 

What if I want it graded?

 

What if I want to participate in the registry?

 

What if I want to show off my graded book to others?

 

The slab addresses all those issues, quite nicely, and none of which has to do with resale.

Pay for the sig?

 

You could show off a green label, you could show off a personalized yellow label, you could show off an unslabbed signed comic, you could keep better records and not forget things.

 

What if you don't like photos, what if creator in question doesn't like unpersonalized sigs? Is your preference any more reasonable than his? When we're talking about him gifting you something, I think not.

 

The creator doesn't get to decide how or why anyone collects. And they should never do something to someone else's property that the owner doesn't want. They should clearly communicate their fee structure. They should clearly state, upfront, whether they require personalization or not. And the collector should then decide if they can deal with those terms.

 

The collector (or facilitator/witness since that is what we are talking about) then completes the transaction, or doesn't. It should aspire to be a simple, mutually respectful, transaction.

 

 

[1Cool]

(I really can't believe it's 2015, and the SS program STILL has to be defended...on the CGC board no less.)

 

It doesn't have to be defended. Demanding talent change their signature policy to suit your habits does though.

 

Who is demanding artists/writers change their policy? Wouldn't work too well to demand they charge a flat fee for their signatures since no one is debating they have the right to charge whatever they like. Voicing our opinion that they are doing a cash grab using faulty logic which pisses us off (some of their fans) is also within our rights.

[Dale Roberts]

I've not been posting much on E-Bay during the summer but I've been hearing sales are way down for most sellers. With comic cons pulling in tens of thousands of people you would have to think some of them are buying books that would normally be bought off of E-Bay. Have you noticed any slow down this summer and do you think it could be due to the huge amount of Cons?

 

I've also seen a slow down in sales on the Sales Threads of late so is this just the summer lull or something else?

 

I've been selling on ebay since 1998. Summer has been slower every year during that time. Generally ebay starts slowing down about tax day and picks up again after Labor Day. People are busy having fun during the summer. Kids are out of school. Families are on vacation. It has nothing to do with the current market and it never has.

 

 

 

Maybe it's time for a board sale....

 

Did you make the last KC show, last weekend?

No Chris asked me not to support it. Plus, I didn't really have any desire to go.

[Prince Namor]

Didn't pay a dime for these. I have had 'em in my collection since they were signed and they ain't going no where. The list goes on and on.(Sometimes it pays to be old)...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Those are freakin' awesome.

[shadroch]

As George was the guy who pointed out to me two years ago that it was funny that Titans 44 was suddenly heating up, I'd guess he knows a thing or two about the market for his books.

 

Fair enough. MARV told me at Yorba Linda in January that he was seeing a lot of copies of DC Presents #26 for him to sign, and asked me if that was because the book was becoming valuable.

 

Besides...Titans #44 was "heating up" quite a bit sooner than 2 years ago, which just proves the point. Except for the mega keys, creators, especially older creators, don't follow the back issue market for their books very closely.

 

 

 

Creators create. Following the back issue market may be interesting for some, but it's not very common. Let's not get bogged down in "well, Robert Kirkman knows how much Walking Dead #19 sells for!"

 

 

 

Perez and Wolfmans Teen titans came out in 1979, when there were thousands of comic shops. In point of fact, George Perez pretty much got his start in the business as house artists for his friend who owned Mikes Comic Hut in Flushing, and he worked the counter on occasions. Before he landed work with Marvel, he and Mike self-published at least two portfolios which they hawked at every show in the greater NY area. Before he had any published work, he used to do sketches for $2/$3 a pop.

I don't get to see George very often these days, but he has always been aware of the back issue value of his books. He likes to kid that his first work at Marvel is valued so high for it being his first work rather than being about Deadlock.

At the last Vegas convention we both attended, Len Wein not only autographed my X-Men omnibus for free, but he also did a free sketch of Batman in my 3 minute sketchbook.

 

[the blob]

why wouldn't these guys have some awareness? if you worked at marvel or DC you could pretty much take home bags of your books. NTT was a wall book, relatively speaking, selling for decent money before NTT 44 came out, so perez would have known some of his books were worth something. (and sure, it was $20 or whatever, but that was decent money in 1985, how much was he getting paid per page back then?)

[the blob]

I doubt conventions have much at all to do with eBay sales. I also suspect the people buying runs on eBay and the people spending hundreds and thousands just to attend a convention are not the same people. I buy comics, and am absolutely not interested in paying to attend a convention. That's money that could go toward buying comics.

This

I would rather buy books than waste money on needless travel expenses.

 

true, i won't schlep to a con as there are plenty local to me. heck, it pains me to spend $40 on a cab home if i have too much to carry and am afraid i might collapse on the subway. so much to the point that i entrusted a short box of comics to gary dolgoff once on a friday to get back from him on a saturday when i knew my wife would be driving me in and picking me up rather than cabbing it home or trying to manage a short box (and a backpack full of comics and a bag holding another shortbox...) on the subway.

 

if you can keep the cost of the con manageable i just figure yo can buy a bunch of books and avoid S/H on them this way. if you buy 10 books that would have cost you $50 in s/h then spending $50 to attend a con makes sense if you enjoy the hunt and the whole thing. i take my son for some of the days at least and it is a bit of an adventure. this year i would really love it if he could wander himself a bit and let me do my thing, but at 10 he is a bit borderline for that.

[Aweandlorder]

Q: Has E-Bay slowed since people are now buying more books at Cons?

A: No it hasnt

[RockMyAmadeus]

If you don't care about resale value then what does it matter if you get a book thrown in a yellow label? Getting a book signed without the SS process makes total sense to me if you plan on keeping it for your own collection. In fact you could even slab it later on and get the green label and still be happy.

 

In other words....

 

"What I collect rocks, what you collect sucks."

 

That's very shortsighted of you.

 

What if I don't personally witness the signature being applied, since I couldn't be where the creator was? I would want that authentication by someone who DID witness it.

 

What if I forget, 20 years from now, when and how I got a book signed? If it's not slabbed, and I forget, how will I know it's an authentic signature?

 

"Well, you could get a photo with the creator!" What if I misplace the photo? What if I don't like taking photos? What if I don't record the details of the signing?

 

What if I want it graded?

 

What if I want to participate in the registry?

 

What if I want to show off my graded book to others?

 

The slab addresses all those issues, quite nicely, and none of which has to do with resale.

Pay for the sig?

 

You could show off a green label, you could show off a personalized yellow label, you could show off an unslabbed signed comic, you could keep better records and not forget things.

 

Sure you could.

 

There's no dispute about any of that.

 

So?

 

Just because those things *could* be done, doesn't mean they *must*, or even *should*, be done. If *you* want to do all those things, knock yourself out. No one is stopping you.

 

But just because that's what YOU want to do, and what you want OTHERS to do, doesn't mean others have to see things the same way, and do them the same way, in order to not have their motives questioned by you.

 

Just because someone wants to get their book signed and NOT have their name scrawled on it, does not mean that they are automatically doing it for "resale".

 

And we haven't even discussed the fact that, for people to be able to SELL these things, there have to be people who want to BUY them.

 

What about those people? Or, do you think they're buying them only because they, too, plan on reselling them? Is the entire SS market composed of nothing but people who buy signed books for no other reason than they buy stocks, always looking for the "greater fool" to sell to?

 

I've already shown four books of mine that aren't personalized, and aren't for resale, never have been, and probably never will be unless I were to completely get out of comics altogether. Do you just ignore that evidence before your eyes?

 

(PS. You're in your 30's, right? We'll see just how easy it is for you to "not forget things" when you're in your 60's.)

 

What if you don't like photos, what if creator in question doesn't like unpersonalized sigs?

 

No problem. Then you either accept personalized sigs, or you don't get your books signed by that creator. Your choice, while respecting the creator's choice. No fuss. No muss.

 

It's really not what you're trying to make it out to be. You're making rhetorical arguments that don't mean anything. "What if that creator likes to light books on fire? What about that, huh?"

 

No one is suggesting anyone demand ANYONE do anything they don't wish to do. It's business. "Will you do this, in exchange for that, yes/no?" DEMANDING anything is a sure way of being kicked out of the SS program.

 

Is your preference any more reasonable than his?

 

No. Who said that it was? No one.

 

You have a chip on your shoulder regarding fans interacting with artists and the SS program, and it's shading everything you're saying here. You're not being reasonable or logical. These issues you're bringing up are easily addressed.

 

When we're talking about him gifting you something, I think not.

 

How many times in this discussion have people, in various forms, claimed that people are asking for a service for free?

 

And how many times has that claim been debunked?

 

And how many more times will that claim be made, and again need to be debunked?

 

No one is asking anyone to do anything without compensation.

 

Throughout this entire thread, no one has expected that anyone would do anything without compensation.

 

Yet, here it is again, someone opposed to the program, becoming indignant over the idea that creators are being asked to do something without compensation.

 

Can't we move past that erroneous argument?

[RockMyAmadeus]

why wouldn't these guys have some awareness? if you worked at marvel or DC you could pretty much take home bags of your books. NTT was a wall book, relatively speaking, selling for decent money before NTT 44 came out, so perez would have known some of his books were worth something. (and sure, it was $20 or whatever, but that was decent money in 1985, how much was he getting paid per page back then?)

 

Titans #44 wasn't worth anything until the launch of Nightwing's 1996 regular series, more than a decade after it came out. Then, it floated back down to being a dollar book, until about 2008-2009 or so. I bubbed up a bit with the 2003 Titans relaunch, but not significantly, and floated around the $5-$10 range until the 2010s.

 

By the time Titans #44 came out, the Titans had already lost a considerable bit of luster. Not to say they weren't selling, but the bloom was definitely off the rose. Sales for #50 averaged 182k copies, no longer challenging X-Men for the best selling title in the market (comparable X-Men were selling 378k on average.)

[RockMyAmadeus]

As George was the guy who pointed out to me two years ago that it was funny that Titans 44 was suddenly heating up, I'd guess he knows a thing or two about the market for his books.

 

Fair enough. MARV told me at Yorba Linda in January that he was seeing a lot of copies of DC Presents #26 for him to sign, and asked me if that was because the book was becoming valuable.

 

Besides...Titans #44 was "heating up" quite a bit sooner than 2 years ago, which just proves the point. Except for the mega keys, creators, especially older creators, don't follow the back issue market for their books very closely.

 

 

 

Creators create. Following the back issue market may be interesting for some, but it's not very common. Let's not get bogged down in "well, Robert Kirkman knows how much Walking Dead #19 sells for!"

 

 

 

Perez and Wolfmans Teen titans came out in 1979, when there were thousands of comic shops.

 

New Teen Titans came out in 1980, and there weren't thousands of comic shops in 1979 or 1980...that was *probably* true by 1981-1982, but probably not 1980, and certainly not 1979.

 

And none of that matters, because they were still from the era of creators being creators, not back issue dealers. To creators, the Direct Market would have barely even registered. Why would it? "Is this book selling, yes/no? Don't care where, or how, just if."

 

In point of fact, George Perez pretty much got his start in the business as house artists for his friend who owned Mikes Comic Hut in Flushing, and he worked the counter on occasions. Before he landed work with Marvel, he and Mike self-published at least two portfolios which they hawked at every show in the greater NY area. Before he had any published work, he used to do sketches for $2/$3 a pop.

 

Ok. And?

 

Does that therefore mean George was intimately involved in the back issue market?

 

Did "Mike's Comic Hut" sell back issues? And if they did, was it a large part of their business? We're talking about 1973-1974, after all.

 

I don't get to see George very often these days, but he has always been aware of the back issue value of his books. He likes to kid that his first work at Marvel is valued so high for it being his first work rather than being about Deadlock.

 

That's interesting...Deathlok also appears there, too!

 

 

My point is simply this: those who deal in back issues as a business are intimately aware of the market, in ways that creators whose business is creating, are not.

 

Does George sell back issues? Doubtful. Does he sell SS books? Doubtful.

 

So, of necessity, he's not going to be tuned into the market to anywhere near the degree that those who do this as either a vocation, or even an avocation. That's my point.

 

At the last Vegas convention we both attended, Len Wein not only autographed my X-Men omnibus for free, but he also did a free sketch of Batman in my 3 minute sketchbook.

 

Sweet!

[RockMyAmadeus]

(I really can't believe it's 2015, and the SS program STILL has to be defended...on the CGC board no less.)

 

It doesn't have to be defended. Demanding talent change their signature policy to suit your habits does though.

 

Who has "demanded talent change their sig policy"?

 

No one.

 

In fact, great and extensive pains have been made to show that was NOT the case.

 

So where did you get that idea?

[revat]

 

 

So your saying that grocery store owners SHOULDN'T CHARGE MORE to people who are restaurant owners? But they're going to profit off of the food I sold them, which for some reason I'm VERY against. Especially since restaurant owners NEVER EVER buy food to cook at home and consume themselves. Additionally, EVERYONE knows ALL restaurant owners ALL live in the lap of luxury, so they can afford to pay a premium. And of course, I can tell when people are restaurant owners because they buy more than 2 milks or 2 dozen eggs at a time, as there are ZERO people who have families with more than five people (those kids with that lady are obviously slave food workers) or live in the countryside/mountains and can't come into town as often. And those silly restaurant owners love to pack their own groceries because they want to make sure their fruits don't get bruised and its easier to unpack later on, not because they like to reuse bags for environmental purposes or for weight distribution. Those facists fat cats, all they care about is $$ and unbruised fruit.

 

 

Same with Tanning Salons. "Oh SHHHH, this girl is ultra hot. Like professional bikini model hot. I cannot believe how hot this girl is, how lucky am I that she came to my tanning salon,and we're all alone, and I GET TO CHARGE HER MORE BECAUSE I THINK SHE'S PROBABLY A MODEL? Awesome!!" Because she too is a facist fat cat.

 

Need more examples? I should be working, but I can do this all day.

 

 

 

[shadroch]

why wouldn't these guys have some awareness? if you worked at marvel or DC you could pretty much take home bags of your books. NTT was a wall book, relatively speaking, selling for decent money before NTT 44 came out, so perez would have known some of his books were worth something. (and sure, it was $20 or whatever, but that was decent money in 1985, how much was he getting paid per page back then?)

 

Titans #44 wasn't worth anything until the launch of Nightwing's 1996 regular series, more than a decade after it came out. Then, it floated back down to being a dollar book, until about 2008-2009 or so. I bubbed up a bit with the 2003 Titans relaunch, but not significantly, and floated around the $5-$10 range until the 2010s.

 

By the time Titans #44 came out, the Titans had already lost a considerable bit of luster. Not to say they weren't selling, but the bloom was definitely off the rose. Sales for #50 averaged 182k copies, no longer challenging X-Men for the best selling title in the market (comparable X-Men were selling 378k on average.)

 

 

Titans never challenged the X-men in sales. It was the best selling DC book, but never anywhere near X-Men. By the time Tales of the Titans 50 came out,

the Titans had two titles, the Baxter book and the original. At some point, the Tales of the Titans book became a reprint of the baxter series.

The Judas Contract , which ToT 44 was a part of was named comic story of the year by CBG and won many other fandom awards. Most people who know a thing or two consider the Judas Contract the high point of the Titans run. Lost lustre?

[KPR Comics]

 

 

 

Same with Tanning Salons. "Oh SHHHH, this girl is ultra hot. Like professional bikini model hot. I cannot believe how hot this girl is, how lucky am I that she came to my tanning salon,and we're all alone, and I GET TO CHARGE HER MORE BECAUSE I THINK SHE'S PROBABLY A MODEL? Awesome!!" Because she too is a facist fat cat.

 

Need more examples? I should be working, but I can do this all day.

 

 

I think you need to re-think your tanning salon strategy, just sayin.

[revat]

 

 

 

Same with Tanning Salons. "Oh SHHHH, this girl is ultra hot. Like professional bikini model hot. I cannot believe how hot this girl is, how lucky am I that she came to my tanning salon,and we're all alone, and I GET TO CHARGE HER MORE BECAUSE I THINK SHE'S PROBABLY A MODEL? Awesome!!" Because she too is a facist fat cat.

 

Need more examples? I should be working, but I can do this all day.

 

 

I think you need to re-think your tanning salon strategy, just sayin.

 

Look, she clearly makes money off her looks (I can make this assumption because I've never spoken to her and know nothing about her), and the service I'm providing makes her look better. Therefore I'm pretty much the entire reason she's a successful bikini model. Giselle makes 30M per year as a supermodel, surely this hottie makes at least $1M annually, it makes sense to charge this stranger $10 more. If she doesn't want to pay it, fine. The last thing I want as a tanning salon owner is professional bikini models coming in all the time expecting to pay the same price as everyone else even though I'm providing them the exact same service. I tan for my fans, for middle age men in mid-life crisis, for mediocre (not high-end) strippers to get subpar implants, and not for bikini model fat cats.

[KPR Comics]

Just sayin, if it were me, I want as much talent coming in as can fit through the door. Price to hotness ratio is inversely proportional