If Jack Kirby was the king of comics, was Alex Schomburg the king of covers in the GA? 2 2

[Bronty]

I don't think Saunders had much impact on the comic book.    His art is great but its best discussed in a pulp context IMO

[Bronty]

14 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

I just love this...

I've always loved it too.    Just terrific

[Electricmastro]

On 2/3/2020 at 10:35 AM, Bronty said:

I don't think Saunders had much impact on the comic book.    His art is great but its best discussed in a pulp context IMO

I was referring to how expressive/resonating his art could be rather than impact, but still a fair point.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Electricmastro

[Electricmastro]

If we’re talking about impactful artists, then I think Frank Frazetta would be worth mentioning.

 

 

 

 

[KCOComics]

This is such a great thread! 

I've always been partial to Schomberg. I feel like his early Marvel Mystery covers stand out as the most dramatic WWII covers of the era. 

It's hard not to love Cole. He's gotten so hot the last 5 years or so, but you can always pick out an LB cover.  

Lately I've been getting into Creig Flessel and pre-Batman detective comics. They are expensive books to collect, but so detailed!  Great stuff. 

If we have to name a king of the Golden Age covers, I would probably give the title to Schomberg. 

[bronze johnny]

On 2/2/2020 at 2:56 PM, Cat-Man_America said:

It’s certainly possible to draw those comparisons.  While I concur with Stan Lee’s observation on Alex Schomburg’s work, I perceive Jack Kirby’s output a bit differently.  Now if you’d said William Blake channeled through Salvador Dali, we might be close to something!  

Without taking anything away from Jack’s contributions to the genre ...which are voluminous and incontrovertible... it’s fair to say his pole position in the pantheon of GA greats is primarily founded on 1. meeting grueling deadlines for cover & interior work (dare I say in a Timely manner), 2. exceptional rendering of action scenes with fluid movement, and 3. an instantly recognizable style popular with both readers & publishers.  That’s the trifecta.  

Arguably, Jack’s weakest areas were anatomy & attention to detail, but he more than made up for compositional deficiencys with dynamic action that moved effortlessly from panel to panel.  That said, I’ve often wondered if Orson Welles received any royalty payments for the contribution his seminal masterpiece made to inspirating S&K’s panel and cover composition (Citizen Kane premiered May 1, 1941).  When you think about the look of Jack Kirby’s work from around this time, it makes perfect sense.  

Of course, using this logic a lot of artists would've probably owed royalties to Mr. Welles and S&K for borrowing their inspired think-outside-the-box visual compositions which were very influential for several years.   

As a side note, Jack’s teaming with other fine artists like Syd Shores who inked some of his early Cap covers probably deserves mention.  Jack Kirby’s partnership with Joe Simon also played a significant role in his early success.  Simon & Kirby were the tag team who ...combined with Joe’s savvy business acumen... were able to call their own shots at several publishing houses in the GA. In the Silver Age, after their business relationship fell apart, Jack’s return to Martin Goodman's and Stan Lee's bullpen and pairing with Ayers proved a major contribution to Marvel’s growth and popularity.

Sorry about the length of this post.  This is normally where I’d post several examples of prized Jack Kirby GA covers from my collection that I greatly admire, but at the moment I don’t have access to my desk computer to source image scans, so I’ll re-edit at the earliest opportunity (apologies in advance).  Try to consider what I’ve stated above as a critique, not a criticism.  I admire Jack Kirby’s work, not all of it, but certainly the vast majority of it, especially his early work dating from WWII.

In each of the above Jack Kirby covers the intense power of the composition comes through.

Under closer scrutiny anatomical flaws & building design issues clearly stand out, but does it really matter?  

Some of Jack's work may seem sketchy or unfinished, but given the dynamic visuals the cover art demands attention. 

Great books Catman!

It’s unnecessary to channel Blake through Dali since the words of England’s greatest poet  expressed an approach that included but was not limited to a mythology and underlying mysticism that Kirby would incorporate into his art. The surrealism that Dali expresses didn’t dominate Jack’s art. Blake was also like Kirby, a visionary. Kirby will always be more than the cover of a comic book, which is one primary reason why the comic book helped put an end to the pulps. While it’s clear to me that you are one of those collectors who doesn’t simply judge a book by its cover, an unfortunate consequence of the SlabAge we are in today, we’d agree that Kirby as the prolific comic book artist, creator, and visionary, is more than his covers. Kirby, experimented and took risks at throughout his incredible career. And Kirby’s failures were outweighed by his unrivaled achievements.

The greatest creation of the Marvel-Timely Golden Age is Kirby’s (credit is also given to Simon in this order) Captain America there’s little doubt the publisher would have successfully competed with Fawcett’s Captain Marvel and DC’s Superman without him. The Golden Age and rise of the first era of superheroes owes much to the Second World War and the evil tyrannical governments that challenged truth, justice, and the American Way. Comic book publishers tapped into the rising patriotism of the time and America needed new heroes. Schomburg’s classic war covers are examples of some of the best of the era. As are examples of Ray’s Superman, Beck’s Captain Marvel, and Raboy’s Captain Marvel Jr. The difference between Schomburg and the others is that he put out a much larger number of battle-action covers than his contemporaries. How many more of these covers did Schomburg do during the Golden Age (1938-1945) than Kirby and the others I mention? Schomburg was also an artist of his time. It’s evident in the corpus of his work. World War II and the Golden Age were his time. Kirby, on the other hand, was the visionary and creator who preceded his time and laid the foundation for future generations of comic book artists to follow. Jack was always ahead of the curve- sometimes way ahead to a point that didn’t initially help him but he took the risks and as the old adage goes, No risk, no gain. Still, Kirby’s shortened Golden Age time (remember that Jack went to war) will never be defined exclusively by his covers- he can’t because any attempt to look at one aspect of Kirby falls short of our seeing Jack through the necessary full prism. And it’s the artist who creates and sees what her/his contemporaries cannot that distinguishes them. This is the reason why a comparing Schomburg’s covers to Kirby’s during the Golden Age doesn’t tell the whole story and never will. Kirby isn’t just about the covers. Best not also forget the subjective preferences incorporated into our taste for art. As I’ve said before, asking whether one artist’s art is better than another’s is much of the underlying which do you like more? 

The better Golden Age cover artist comparison is Schomburg to Raboy (I’d post mine but can’t find the scanned photos!) and Mac was the superior cover artist who lacked what Alex had, the better books to draw the covers. 

Schomburg v. Raboy.

To be continued...

Edited February 7, 2020 by bronze johnny

[Cat-Man_America]

 

Interesting perspective on Kirby.  While I can’t agree with every point, your views are logical and intriguing.  My own considered opinion is that Joe Simon had a lot more to do with Kirby’s artistic development and success than William Blake.  It would take a much deeper dive into Kirby’s life to fully grasp his motivations as an artist and draw any relevant conclusions on his artistic influences.

Also, not to contradict Cap’s importance in Kirby’s ascension to artistic prominence, the Captain America character was developed as a proposition from Martin Goodman to Joe Simon.  In Joe Simon’s own words Cap #1 was either complete or in preparation when Martin approached him and asked for ideas on a patriotically themed character.  

Goodman was looking for a costumed hero to counter the success of MLJ’s Shield, not DC’s Batman or Superman.  With the likelihood of our involvement in war looming on the horizon the idea for Cap seemed perfectly timed to fill a patriotic hero niche.  The only unanswered question for me is whether Bucky being added as Cap’s sidekick was influenced by the addition of Dusty the Boy Detective as The Shield’s sidekick in Pep Comics #10.  It’s tight timing given illustration art production schedules, but as fast as Kirby was back then, the latter is certainly possible.

I suspect the switch to a round shield in issue #2 was Joe Simon’s idea having been put on the spot by MLJ’s attorneys over similarities to The Shield’s costume.  As a judgment call to avoid litigation it turned out to be a coup for Cap.  I’d wager MLJ’s attorney’s wished they’d that one back.  Cap’s monumental success spawned many imitators, none of which matched Cap’s stand alone patriotic hero for style, action or story content.  Unfortunately, Goodman’s basket accounting slight of hand would render promises of profits made to S&K as editor and chief illustrator of the title null and void, eventually driving the pair to other publishers.  

I’m not sure how William Blake’s poetic musings play into Jack’s mythos or the changing fortunes of S&K, but Joe Simon was the more strategic visionary of the two, career-wise.  

Jack was certainly prolific in the 40’s and beyond, usually as the primary penciler of many covers and interior stories. Regardless of the work output and who drew, inked and signed what, the S&K style and trademark was highly influential.  When making Salvador Dali references ...perhaps another artist such as Picasso would’ve been a bit more apropos respecting Kirby’s divergent style... I’m alluding to the blockier more abstracted close-ups that Kirby developed and embraced post-GA, as the 1960’s rolled on.  

There seemed to be a turning point for Kirby’s style in the early 60’s.  I mark the start of it at around the time Jack started drawing Ben Grimm’s Thing in a blockier fashion.  That sharper edged, blockier style would lead Jack into a new phase of his work where characters and staged scenes would be drawn in close-up with less detail, more reaction shots and abstraction (somewhat like taking a 4:3 aspect ratio being stretched to widescreen).  

Alex Schomburg’s covers, when compared with the covers of Jack Kirby, are more “picture is worth a thousand words” type of art.   Most of Alex’s covers tell a broad story through the composition of a complex scene making the reader ask “how did this wild situation get to this point?” Occasionally, Alex’s villains even look out of the cover as if daring the reader enter to answer that question.  He also penciled and inked most of his covers.  

In my not so humble opinion, Mac Raboy is one of the more under-appreciated artists of the GA.  We definitely agree on that. The high caliber of his work on Capt. Marvel Jr., the Green Lama, Bulletman and others can’t be overstated.  His covers often appear carefully posed for effect, with effortless human flying scenes.  This marks a departure from either Kirby or Schomburg in that his heroes frequently demonstrated joy and ease at the freedom of flight.  Like Alex, Mac often had characters expressing an attitude directly to prospective readers.  The difference is that it was usually heroes smiling, inviting readers inside to watch them accomplish their feats.

Sorry ‘bout the length of this river of consciousness post, ...it is what it is!  

[bronze johnny]

Apologies if I didn’t make myself clear regarding the Blake comparison to Kirby. It was Grant Morrison who first called Kirby the “William Blake of comics.” I agree with Morrison’s observation for the reasons mentioned in my prior posts

[Cat-Man_America]

8 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

Apologies if I didn’t make myself clear regarding the Blake comparison to Kirby. It was Grant Morrison who first called Kirby the “William Blake of comics.” I agree with Morrison’s observation for the reasons mentioned in my prior posts

No apology needed.  Your views on these artists are well stated and astute, IMO.

My perception differs slightly from your’s & Grant Morrison’s take, but generally we’re on the same page here.  One thing’s for sure, if Kirby were still with us he’d probably laugh and roll his eyes at this level of speculation over his work.  

[bronze johnny]

13 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

No apology needed.  Your views on these artists are well stated and astute, IMO.

My perception differs slightly from your’s & Grant Morrison’s take, but generally we’re on the same page here.  One thing’s for sure, if Kirby were still with us he’d probably laugh and roll his eyes at this level of speculation over his work.  

By now, Kirby isn't only laughing but he's at Eternals Comics (sorry Marvel but the name belongs to Jack) drawing a new comic about adult comic book lovers with the power to transcend back in time through the comics and return to the world of what he'd call Reality Sux! These adults spend countless hours studying and debating over age old questions about the greatest periods of the art form. Their ultimate goal is to research primary and secondary materials to find truth through the interpretations and in some cases, speculation they make!

One more point about the Komprehensive Kirby has to do with the single most significant cover of the Timely Golden Age (1938 - 1945). It's Kirby's cover to Captain America 1. It's the most famous and recognizable cover of Timely's Golden Age and it will always place first among the publisher's war-action covers. It's also the launch of not only Timely's greatest Golden Age hero (yes, the intent behind creating Captain America was to rival MLJ's Shield but it wasn't long before Cap took on DC's and Fawcett's best) but also the commencement of Kirby, the Creator & Visionary. Simon gets credit and more so for the role he has in enhancing Kirby and leading the way for their business ventures. And Lee later followed Simon in that role during the advent of the Marvel Silver Age. Still, Kirby not only did the single most significant Timely Golden Age cover but also the cover to Amazing Fantasy 15, the greatest Silver Age Marvel cover. As I've said before however, the covers can never entirely define Kirby and this is further evident during his role at DC at the dawn of the Silver Age of DC Comics with Jack's Challengers of the Unknown in Showcase 6 - the first original Silver Age concept that was awarded its own run prior to the Flash's. Kirby comes closest to Blake with the Fourth World at the beginning of the Bronze Age. Here, Jack incorporates his own created mythology, which is one of the best examples of Kirby channeling Blake. These are some examples of Kirby the Creator & Visionary that began the year America entered WWII.

Time moves on and as future generations discover the comic book and its rich history, there will be those who venture back to the Golden Age and see the corpus of classic war action covers by Schomburg but they will always begin with the single most significant war action book of Timely's Golden Age with the cover drawn by Captain America's creator, Kirby. 

Any discussion on Raboy always initially draws me back to the question I raised in this forum: What if Mac had drawn Superman?

Agree with your observations about Mac's work and will add that no one captured the essence of youth like Raboy. If you have a connection to your inner child, then Raboy made it through his art. I look at Raboy's Captain Marvel Jr. and see a kid. Beck and Kirby could never capture the kid in us like Raboy. Raboy's patriotic covers don't rely on caricature-like depictions that demonize the enemy and rely on the war-inspired propaganda of the day. The power emanating from Raboy's art relies on a symbolism unique to him. There's nothing like Raboy's art. There's more to say about Raboy and I believe the corpus of his artwork is only beginning to be appreciated. 

To be continued...

[Straw-Man]

great thread, all.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Straw-Man

[Straw-Man]

On 2/2/2020 at 7:30 PM, Chuck Gower said:

I just love this...

happens to be the first g.a. comic i ever bought, and stayed with me tho' i got out of the cap run.

[Electricmastro]

Schomburg was definitely great with his “crowd covers.” The time of covers that have many different actions going on at the same time without necessarily being cluttered, though I imagine some of his critics can deem his work to be a little too cluttered regardless.

[Cat-Man_America]

Random examples of Alex Schomburg's strengths as a visual storyteller...

Whimsical post-war fanged little green men invade the arctic (where are they from, why are they here and what are their plans for that iced Bucky-cicle?)

The Black Terror halting a German rocket assault on the UK from a fortified Europe; the newsstand date was June 2, 1944 (...just 4 days before D-Day)

Battle issue: Namor's electro-magnetic tank and undersea "shock" troops wage war on land with the Human Torch (epic 60 page story continued from Marvel Mystery series)

City wrecking mayhem abounds as a super-sized Human Torch battles a colossal robot in a wild size distortion cover (only Schomburg could make this magnificent magnification work) 

  

Subterranean ghouls with a leader in red klan garb torture a bound woman dangling over acid underscored by a fleeing minion warning readers of the Human Torch's impending intervention.

There is so much storytelling going on in this nightmarish cover that it boggles the mind (...in fact, even the worm coming out of Zombie Schicklgruber's ear has a tale to tell)

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 2/7/2020 at 5:53 PM, Cat-Man_America said:

Most of Alex’s covers tell a broad story through the composition of a complex scene making the reader ask “how did this wild situation get to this point?”

I love this observation. I also agree with bronze Johnny that Schomburg is the face of the golden age WWII comics