All things Valiant. 0

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

How many copies of the Turok #1 VVSS with the Dr. Mirage #1 VVSS COA have turned up over the past 5 - 10 years? When I sold mine to another member on Greg's boards way back when it was the second one that I had heard of.

 

Did a complete VVSS Dr. Mirage #1 ever turn up?

 

 

Nope. As far as I know, there have only been two copies of the Dr. Mirage #1 VVSS certificate.

 

From what I can tell, the actual book that accompanies the Dr. Mirage #1 VVSS certificate is meaningless.

 

Interesting. I thought that more would have surfaced by now.

 

Another cool item I found at a LCS was a DF Q&W #0 or something like that which was the only copy I had seen at the time. There had to be a bunch of them out there.

I think that was American Entertainment. The estimated numbers of those are about the same as a common book in the first series, but since it was distributed differently it may be more difficult to find

[B-Smooth]

Very cool stuff. This is why I started this thread. To kind of put stuff in one place, and learn about Valiant books. I wish it would get the sticky, as these books were a huge part of the later half of the copper age.

 

There is so much cool Valiant stories and characters and marketing goodies that can be posted in here over time.

 

Even the Doctor Silk bookmark you only received by purchasing a hobby magazine as an insert.

That's whata mean. I needs an edumacation in the Valiant arts. Like this pre-post- unity stuff I've heard about. I really just don't know anything about the company.

There is an entire thread devoted to non-comic Valiant ephemera on Valiantman's website (started, I believe, by the current CEO of Valiant, before he owned the rights to the characters).

Yes, you've mentioned these things several times. I'm only asking to put it here. Is there some kind of issue you're having with this blasphemy?

[mrwoogieman]

Very cool stuff. This is why I started this thread. To kind of put stuff in one place, and learn about Valiant books. I wish it would get the sticky, as these books were a huge part of the later half of the copper age.

 

There is so much cool Valiant stories and characters and marketing goodies that can be posted in here over time.

 

Even the Doctor Silk bookmark you only received by purchasing a hobby magazine as an insert.

That's whata mean. I needs an edumacation in the Valiant arts. Like this pre-post- unity stuff I've heard about. I really just don't know anything about the company.

There is an entire thread devoted to non-comic Valiant ephemera on Valiantman's website (started, I believe, by the current CEO of Valiant, before he owned the rights to the characters).

Yes, you've mentioned these things several times. I'm only asking to put it here. Is there some kind of issue you're having with this blasphemy?

 

 

Yes, let's take Greg's 10+ year in the making repository of all things Valiant and cram it in this one thread!

[B-Smooth]

Very cool stuff. This is why I started this thread. To kind of put stuff in one place, and learn about Valiant books. I wish it would get the sticky, as these books were a huge part of the later half of the copper age.

 

There is so much cool Valiant stories and characters and marketing goodies that can be posted in here over time.

 

Even the Doctor Silk bookmark you only received by purchasing a hobby magazine as an insert.

That's whata mean. I needs an edumacation in the Valiant arts. Like this pre-post- unity stuff I've heard about. I really just don't know anything about the company.

There is an entire thread devoted to non-comic Valiant ephemera on Valiantman's website (started, I believe, by the current CEO of Valiant, before he owned the rights to the characters).

Yes, you've mentioned these things several times. I'm only asking to put it here. Is there some kind of issue you're having with this blasphemy?

 

 

Yes, let's take Greg's 10+ year in the making repository of all things Valiant and cram it in this one thread!

Now we're talking!

[FormerReader]

 

My original A&A 0 Gold I received directly from Valiant.

 

 

 

 

 

Bosco,

 

That is incredible that you have your original gold book and it was graded a 9.8. Congrats!

[B-Smooth]

 

My original A&A 0 Gold I received directly from Valiant.

 

 

 

 

 

Bosco,

 

That is incredible that you have your original gold book and it was graded a 9.8. Congrats!

That is amazing. Especially a mailed book.

[valiantman]

Very cool stuff. This is why I started this thread. To kind of put stuff in one place, and learn about Valiant books. I wish it would get the sticky, as these books were a huge part of the later half of the copper age.

 

There is so much cool Valiant stories and characters and marketing goodies that can be posted in here over time.

 

Even the Doctor Silk bookmark you only received by purchasing a hobby magazine as an insert.

That's whata mean. I needs an edumacation in the Valiant arts. Like this pre-post- unity stuff I've heard about. I really just don't know anything about the company.

There is an entire thread devoted to non-comic Valiant ephemera on Valiantman's website (started, I believe, by the current CEO of Valiant, before he owned the rights to the characters).

Yes, you've mentioned these things several times. I'm only asking to put it here. Is there some kind of issue you're having with this blasphemy?

 

 

Yes, let's take Greg's 10+ year in the making repository of all things Valiant and cram it in this one thread!

Now we're talking!

 

Well, there are a (literal) million posts on ValiantFans.com, so it's probably useful to do a summary of some kind.

 

[B-Smooth]

Cram on, brother! Learn me some Valiant.

 

So why are the "pre-unity" books more valuable than post- unity ones?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Very cool stuff. This is why I started this thread. To kind of put stuff in one place, and learn about Valiant books. I wish it would get the sticky, as these books were a huge part of the later half of the copper age.

 

There is so much cool Valiant stories and characters and marketing goodies that can be posted in here over time.

 

Even the Doctor Silk bookmark you only received by purchasing a hobby magazine as an insert.

That's whata mean. I needs an edumacation in the Valiant arts. Like this pre-post- unity stuff I've heard about. I really just don't know anything about the company.

There is an entire thread devoted to non-comic Valiant ephemera on Valiantman's website (started, I believe, by the current CEO of Valiant, before he owned the rights to the characters).

Yes, you've mentioned these things several times. I'm only asking to put it here. Is there some kind of issue you're having with this blasphemy?

 

 

Yes, let's take Greg's 10+ year in the making repository of all things Valiant and cram it in this one thread!

Now we're talking!

 

Well, there are a (literal) million posts on ValiantFans.com, so it's probably useful to do a summary of some kind.

 

 

Only a million....?

 

[FormerReader]

Cram on, brother! Learn me some Valiant.

 

So why are the "pre-unity" books more valuable than post- unity ones?

 

Higher quality stories and art, generally lower print runs, 1st appearances. Unity put Valiant on the map. After Unity the print runs grew very quickly and over time the quality dropped significantly.

[Ken Aldred]

After Unity, I felt the quality dropped off very, very quickly. However, some books remained consistently enjoyable reads, such as Shadowman and Eternal Warrior. Nothing quite as special as the Shooter era material, though.

 

[valiantman]

Cram on, brother! Learn me some Valiant.

 

So why are the "pre-unity" books more valuable than post- unity ones?

 

Higher quality stories and art, generally lower print runs, 1st appearances. Unity put Valiant on the map. After Unity the print runs grew very quickly and over time the quality dropped significantly.

 

After Unity, I felt the quality dropped off very, very quickly. However, some books remained consistently enjoyable reads, such as Shadowman and Eternal Warrior. Nothing quite as special as the Shooter era material, though.

 

Unity is an 18-part "universe wide" story from mid-1992. Valiant was a publisher for about 12 months prior to the Unity storyline.

 

As stated above, the Unity storyline put Valiant on the map - particularly since the first part of the 18 was a free comic. That free comic was Unity #0 which had a great cover by Barry Windsor-Smith and an exciting story that introduced the Valiant line pretty well.

 

The industry was booming in mid-1992, so everything "new" was hot... basically all Image and Valiant titles were the primary focus of new collectors in 1992 and 1993, or more specifically, new dealers looking to get rich from cases of new comics... many adding comics to their sportscard shops.

 

The print runs for Valiant books went very high, very quickly after Unity. As a result, it was easy to start collecting Valiant and have books like "Harbinger #8 through #16", but not have a copy of Harbinger #1 through #7, because those were pre-Unity. Unity was in Harbinger #8 and #9.

 

The lower print runs for Harbinger #1 through #7 caused the prices during the "boom" to escalate quickly, similar to Solar #1-#11, Magnus #1-#14, X-O #1-#6, Rai #1-#5, Shadowman #1-#3. All of those are pre-Unity issues for those titles, and collectors went nuts trying to get their hands on them.

 

The next two issues of each title were the Unity parts, and they were easier to locate (Harbinger #8-#9, Solar #12-#13, Magnus #15-#16, etc.). Following Unity, it became ridiculously easy to locate the Valiant issues of late-1992 and 1993.

So, collections/inventories of Valiant today (especially if they're untouched for 20 years) are often full of post-Unity books like Magnus #21 or Solar #17 or Rai #9.

 

[valiantman]

More about Unity (1992)...

______________________________

 

97% of the 80,000,000+ books printed by Valiant from 1991 to 1996 are Unity or later (post-Unity). More than 60,000,000 total books (400 different issues) are specifically post-Unity Valiant from 1993 and 1994. Literally fewer than 3,000,000 total books (54 different issues) are pre-Unity Valiant. That's 3% of Valiant comics from the 1990s that were pre-Unity books, but they were the goal for Valiant collectors during the industry boom. That 3% now represents the "classic Valiant" that has become central to "Valiant nostalgia" today.

 

Today, many (available) Valiant collections (and dealer inventories) contain very few pre-Unity books... sometimes 99% to 100% of even large Valiant collections are post-Unity. Valiant books like Harbinger #1 were once "grails" for Valiant collectors... which was a whole lot of people on the early 1990s... during the boom. Those same 1990s collectors often collected Image, but books like Spawn #1 were always easy to obtain. Collectors from the 1990s often had "unfilled holes" in their collections specifically for pre-Unity Valiant... but they had full runs of Image, Marvel, or DC representing the same time period. As a result, during the boom, it was the Valiant pre-Unity books that became grails almost across the board for all types of modern collectors. There were definitely more collectors who were focused on current Marvel, DC, and/or Image... but those collections were very easy to complete at the time.

 

A pre-Unity Valiant collection was mostly an "incomplete" or a "don't-bother-they-are-too-expensive" or a "maybe-someday-when-I-can-afford-them" aspect of comic collecting in the early 1990s. After the market crash, pretty much all comics from the early 1990s plummeted. No one wanted to touch anything early-to-mid 1990s. But there was never more than 3% pre-Unity Valiant in the first place. Many collections that were dumped during the "industry crash" into the open market were 99% post-Unity in the Valiant boxes, plus tons of Image, Marvel, DC., etc.

 

It was possible to obtain the pre-Unity Valiant books for cheap in the late 1990s, post-crash...

but there was not an easy source for a "longbox of Harbinger #1" the way there were many unopened cases of Rai #9 or even Spawn #1. But the "boom" (and huge increases in print runs) happened after Unity.

 

All that unsold dealer stock (from those closing comic shops / sportscard shops) was unsold post-Unity Valiant, plus Reign of the Supermen, plus Azrael Batman, etc. Unsold post-Unity Valiant is often cited as the 1990s drek that still sits unsold, even today. Regardless of the actual quality of the post-Unity books, there are still just far too many in print for them to be anywhere but unsold in today's smaller market. 97% of Valiant probably is drek, from an unsold inventory standpoint.

 

Returning collectors who remember Valiant are usually one of two types (numbered just for convenience, not official labels):

 

Valiant Type 1) They remember Valiant because they bought post-Unity Valiant in the 1993-1994 timeframe

Valiant Type 2) They remember Valiant as junk because post-Unity Valiant was sitting unsold for so many years at their comic shops

Very, very few returning collectors are Valiant Type 3) They actually had the pre-Unity Valiant books.

 

A lot of both Type 1 and Type 2 collectors wanted pre-Unity Valiant back-in-the-day, but not many actually had them. Unfortunately, a lot of collectors and dealers still around (or returning) today think they were Type 3, but they were actually Type 1. When you get them to physically go check their collections, they usually have Rai #9 and up, Harbinger #10 and up, Solar #16 and up, etc.

 

I was a Type 1 who wished he could have been a Type 3, but I had very few pre-Unity books in 1994 when I stopped collecting (like many people). When I returned to collecting in the late 1990s, I was fortunate enough to buy pre-Unity books during the lowest post-crash market, earliest years of Ebay (pre-2000).

 

Today... you can throw into the mix Valiant Type 4) Never collected Valiant in the 1990s, but they know about the new line currently being published (since 2012). It's easy to see that all 4 types provide potential buyers for the pre-Unity Valiant books in the current market, particularly those pre-Unity issues with 20+ year old first appearances for characters still being published.

____________________________

 

NOTE: Unity was the 1992 storyline for Valiant and it is the Unity in terms like "pre-Unity" and "post-Unity". The current Valiant titles include a title called "Unity". That new Unity title is 2013-present, and isn't part of these kinds of "pre-Unity" discussions.

[the blob]

i'll agree here, i never saw a harbinger 1 in a $1-$2 box. not saying they weren't out there, i just never saw one and i sure was looking. i did pick up all the others cheap during the crash though.

 

it kills me though that eternal warrior 4 is expensive now. not knowing the ins and outs of valiant i forgot that was the first bloodshot. i have little doubt i have passed on hundreds of them over the years.

[valiantman]

i'll agree here, i never saw a harbinger 1 in a $1-$2 box. not saying they weren't out there, i just never saw one and i sure was looking. i did pick up all the others cheap during the crash though.

It was definitely plausible that there were $1 copies of Harbinger #1, but it would have been a needle in a haystack. Most of the "dumped" Valiant collections just didn't include the keys. It's inevitable that a few copies were dumped, and some dealers could have flipped them for pennies, but most of the inventory available after the crash was just heavy multiples of the 1993-1994 post-Unity issues.

 

it kills me though that eternal warrior 4 is expensive now. not knowing the ins and outs of valiant i forgot that was the first bloodshot. i have little doubt i have passed on hundreds of them over the years.

Eternal Warrior #4 is one of just a few post-Unity 1992 books which actually are important, particularly with the return of Valiant since 2012. They had higher print runs than pre-Unity keys, but not as crazy as 1993-1994. Others from post-Unity 1992 are Harbinger #10 (first HARDCorps), Shadowman #8 (first Master Darque)... and then there's Rai #0.

 

Rai #0 was set in the year 4001 and it started with the first full appearance of Bloodshot (following Eternal Warrior #4's final page) and told what happened to the Valiant universe from 1992 to the year 4001. Rai #0 is the "Valiant Bible" of the 1990s Valiant line... very important information on pretty much every page.

 

Other first appearances for current Valiant titles did occur in 1993, but the print runs were enormous... and these books are very easy to find. Bloodshot #6 (first Ninjak), Archer & Armstrong #8 (first Ivar the Timewalker), Eternal Warrior #8 (same book as Archer & Armstrong #8, flipside), Shadowman #16 (first Dr. Mirage). Some other 1993 books are "popular" but they are very, very easy to locate... Bloodshot #1, Bloodshot #7 (second Ninjak, first in costume), X-O Manowar #0 (the first full chromium cover), Bloodshot #0 (chromium cover), and some other chromium covers. These 1993 books are usually available for $1, but it's not uncommon to see them sell for $3 or $5, probably as impulse buys.

[valiantman]

Here's another thought that's not specific to Valiant, but it is certainly applicable to Valiant...

 

How many "ANDs" are in your reasoning as a collector?

 

Books like pre-Unity Valiant 1991-1992 and post-Unity Valiant 1995-1996 both have lower print runs, relative to other publishers of the day or relative to the post-Unity Valiant 1993-1994 books.

 

It's easy to be a Valiant collector who likes to buy pre-Unity Valiant and also likes those later 1996 issues... with the reasoning that they collect them because of the lower print runs.

 

The difference that I see is that pre-Unity Valiant is collected for lower print runs AND for the first appearances of characters AND for the nostalgia of wanting them back-in-the-day AND for the importance to the foundations of the Valiant universe storylines AND in the case that someone is trying to collect a full run.

 

Conversely, post-Unity Valiant is collected for lower print runs AND in the case that someone is trying to collect a full run.

 

When it comes to collecting, there seems to be more potential with a book (or any item) when the number of "ANDs" increases in the collector reasoning.

 

Many collectors pay a lot of attention to the low print run books (from all publishers), but that's often the ONLY possible reason a book would matter. When the book isn't a first appearance, when it isn't nostalgic, when the storyline isn't important, it's very hard to see why a book has a lot of potential. What will that potential be based on? Low print run is easy to duplicate. Variants are going lower every day. What else? What are the "ANDs"?

[RockMyAmadeus]

And yet, no one wants to make an offer for my double signed 9.8 Harby #1.

 

[valiantman]

And yet, no one wants to make an offer for my double signed 9.8 Harby #1.

 

It's a great book, for sure, but the "$1,995 or Best Offer" may be intimidating to potential buyers who would otherwise be in the market for an unsigned CGC 9.8 Harbinger #1 around $800 (the 90 day average). JayJay Jackson and Jim Shooter are not an extra $1,195 worth of CGC witnessed signatures. A CGC 9.8 Harbinger #1 Signature Series was $305 in January 2015, and a CGC 9.8 Harbinger #1 unsigned sold most recently prior for $309. Were the signatures worth negative $4?

The 2014 average for CGC 9.6 Harbinger #1 sales was $97, and the signature series CGC 9.6 Harbinger #1 sold for $103 that year. Were the signatures worth $6? That seems too low... but $50 signatures maybe? $100? Probably not $1,195.

 

An Ebay shopper would probably think it unlikely that a seller would go for an offer of $850 or even $1,200 (if we use the recent $1,130 sale plus $70 for the signatures), when the asking price is $2K.

[B-Smooth]

More about Unity (1992)...

______________________________

 

97% of the 80,000,000+ books printed by Valiant from 1991 to 1996 are Unity or later (post-Unity). More than 60,000,000 total books (400 different issues) are specifically post-Unity Valiant from 1993 and 1994. Literally fewer than 3,000,000 total books (54 different issues) are pre-Unity Valiant. That's 3% of Valiant comics from the 1990s that were pre-Unity books, but they were the goal for Valiant collectors during the industry boom. That 3% now represents the "classic Valiant" that has become central to "Valiant nostalgia" today.

 

Today, many (available) Valiant collections (and dealer inventories) contain very few pre-Unity books... sometimes 99% to 100% of even large Valiant collections are post-Unity. Valiant books like Harbinger #1 were once "grails" for Valiant collectors... which was a whole lot of people on the early 1990s... during the boom. Those same 1990s collectors often collected Image, but books like Spawn #1 were always easy to obtain. Collectors from the 1990s often had "unfilled holes" in their collections specifically for pre-Unity Valiant... but they had full runs of Image, Marvel, or DC representing the same time period. As a result, during the boom, it was the Valiant pre-Unity books that became grails almost across the board for all types of modern collectors. There were definitely more collectors who were focused on current Marvel, DC, and/or Image... but those collections were very easy to complete at the time.

 

A pre-Unity Valiant collection was mostly an "incomplete" or a "don't-bother-they-are-too-expensive" or a "maybe-someday-when-I-can-afford-them" aspect of comic collecting in the early 1990s. After the market crash, pretty much all comics from the early 1990s plummeted. No one wanted to touch anything early-to-mid 1990s. But there was never more than 3% pre-Unity Valiant in the first place. Many collections that were dumped during the "industry crash" into the open market were 99% post-Unity in the Valiant boxes, plus tons of Image, Marvel, DC., etc.

 

It was possible to obtain the pre-Unity Valiant books for cheap in the late 1990s, post-crash...

but there was not an easy source for a "longbox of Harbinger #1" the way there were many unopened cases of Rai #9 or even Spawn #1. But the "boom" (and huge increases in print runs) happened after Unity.

 

All that unsold dealer stock (from those closing comic shops / sportscard shops) was unsold post-Unity Valiant, plus Reign of the Supermen, plus Azrael Batman, etc. Unsold post-Unity Valiant is often cited as the 1990s drek that still sits unsold, even today. Regardless of the actual quality of the post-Unity books, there are still just far too many in print for them to be anywhere but unsold in today's smaller market. 97% of Valiant probably is drek, from an unsold inventory standpoint.

 

Returning collectors who remember Valiant are usually one of two types (numbered just for convenience, not official labels):

 

Valiant Type 1) They remember Valiant because they bought post-Unity Valiant in the 1993-1994 timeframe

Valiant Type 2) They remember Valiant as junk because post-Unity Valiant was sitting unsold for so many years at their comic shops

Very, very few returning collectors are Valiant Type 3) They actually had the pre-Unity Valiant books.

 

A lot of both Type 1 and Type 2 collectors wanted pre-Unity Valiant back-in-the-day, but not many actually had them. Unfortunately, a lot of collectors and dealers still around (or returning) today think they were Type 3, but they were actually Type 1. When you get them to physically go check their collections, they usually have Rai #9 and up, Harbinger #10 and up, Solar #16 and up, etc.

 

I was a Type 1 who wished he could have been a Type 3, but I had very few pre-Unity books in 1994 when I stopped collecting (like many people). When I returned to collecting in the late 1990s, I was fortunate enough to buy pre-Unity books during the lowest post-crash market, earliest years of Ebay (pre-2000).

 

Today... you can throw into the mix Valiant Type 4) Never collected Valiant in the 1990s, but they know about the new line currently being published (since 2012). It's easy to see that all 4 types provide potential buyers for the pre-Unity Valiant books in the current market, particularly those pre-Unity issues with 20+ year old first appearances for characters still being published.

____________________________

 

NOTE: Unity was the 1992 storyline for Valiant and it is the Unity in terms like "pre-Unity" and "post-Unity". The current Valiant titles include a title called "Unity". That new Unity title is 2013-present, and isn't part of these kinds of "pre-Unity" discussions.

Thank you, sir. Much appreciated. So, would your 10.0 Rai be the Action 1 of the Valiant universe?

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

And yet, no one wants to make an offer for my double signed 9.8 Harby #1.

 

It's a great book, for sure, but the "$1,995 or Best Offer" may be intimidating to potential buyers who would otherwise be in the market for an unsigned CGC 9.8 Harbinger #1 around $800 (the 90 day average). JayJay Jackson and Jim Shooter are not an extra $1,195 worth of CGC witnessed signatures. A CGC 9.8 Harbinger #1 Signature Series was $305 in January 2015, and a CGC 9.8 Harbinger #1 unsigned sold most recently prior for $309. Were the signatures worth negative $4?

The 2014 average for CGC 9.6 Harbinger #1 sales was $97, and the signature series CGC 9.6 Harbinger #1 sold for $103 that year. Were the signatures worth $6? That seems too low... but $50 signatures maybe? $100? Probably not $1,195.

 

An Ebay shopper would probably think it unlikely that a seller would go for an offer of $850 or even $1,200 (if we use the recent $1,130 sale plus $70 for the signatures), when the asking price is $2K.

 

Pffft.

 

The $305 sale was Layton only.

 

And the last Universal sale was still $1100+.

 

AND....

 

The last sale of one of my OTHER copies (after it apparently traded hands a couple more times) was $1550.

 

And you cannot compare the sales of 9.8s from early this year, when unsigned copies were selling for $300...now, they're selling for an average of $800.

 

No, the comparisons are off, because Shooter doesn't sign much (I'll grant that JJ's sig, as pretty as it is, doesn't add much value), and there are only EIGHT SS books (with one being the aforementioned Layton only sig.)

 

Sigs add value. How much value? Well, in the other copy's case, about $700.

 

So...my asking price isn't *too" far off the mark, and certainly not as inflated as you're making it sound here. You've left quite a bit of very pertinent information out of the equation.