Amazing Spider-Man 361 Print Run

[Peter G]

I have to chuckle at this conversation a bit. Like many books from this era, they were printed with insane levels of demand. The supply overhang will exist for a long time and demand will probably never justify the price on this book as being valuable. Yes, it's possible that massive inflation could justify a $200-$300 price tag but I sincerely believe that most people buying at these prices don't understand the poor investment potential of these common books. I think some dealers take advantage of this ignorance and collude to set market prices high. There is little justification for this being a $200-$300 book.

[the blob]

But if 361 was a sell out then presumably there were many fewer newsstand returns than normal as collectors would have chased them down at the newsstand if they weren't at their shops. i know i did that occasionally. although i guess we are talking about print-runs, not circulation, because who the heck knows where the newsstand returns actually wound up?

540,000 printed, with 450,000 assumed sell-through. (thumbs u

 

on 361 the sell through % would have been much higher. why would there have been leftovers on the newsstands when collectors were buying out comic shops resulting in a second printing?

[Peter G]

So I went and dug out the pertinent issue of Previews, to see what it had to say. Here are pictures:

 

 

 

 

So...part of the cover is shown. If you can't read the blurb, it says "Spider-Man teams up with his arch-nemesis Venom to stop the serial killer Venom-Spawn - a serial killer joined with a piece of the symbiote alien Venom!"

 

We do see part of the cover...but we see the full covers to Groo #88, and the Groo Carnival (which is actually a tough TPB to find.) Also, the full covers to She-Hulk #38, Namor #25, and Web of Spiderman #87 on the preceding page.

 

There's a picture for WCW #1, and a panel for Yuppies From Hell #3, which is set off from the others.

 

Spotlight on X-Men #287.

 

Full page (facing) ad for Cage #1.

 

Elsewhere, a full page ad for MCP #100.

 

No other mention of the issue in the Marvel section. No special symbol, like the Galactic Storm crossovers or various Punisher issues.

 

Not seeing anything that said "this book is special" beyond being an issue of Amazing Spiderman.

 

Does anybody else have any promo materials? If so, please do share them.

 

 

 

 

I think you are maybe missing the point. The book didn't need to be deemed "special" to know that it would sell. Just seeing that cover in previews would be sufficient cause to place a very large order.

[the blob]

Were people buying multiple copies at $1.25? Of course. Were they hoarding them? Absolutely not. There was far too much upward pressure on the book's value to do that. Once it crossed the $10 threshold, people started trading them, and then outright selling them.

 

Remember: this was before the internet, and communication among collectors was spotty, at best. There wasn't much of an outlet for the average person to sell multiples, except to dealers...which is generally what happened.

 

What does hoarding mean? It means people buy multiple copies to SET ASIDE for the FUTURE (or, whatever else they want to do; the point being that they have no intention of selling the books any time soon.) And after all, why does one buy multiple copies of anything that is new? Because they are speculating; hoping the item goes up in value. If and when that happens, their goal is achieved, and they sell.

 

---------------

 

too many assumptions there about what people do or do not do. dealers and collectors were stockpiling plenty in 1992 working under the belief that a hot book will hold its value a long time. my local shop had a palette of wolverine 50s he was selling off for years. ditto darkhawk 9 and several others (not to mention speculation from a decade earlier like a long box of thor 339). (I'm just remembering what he would always have out) . Sounds like a hoard to me. when things went bust and he was buying collections in the late 90s for $5-10 a long box he would get boxes of books with once $10-$25 books, 10, 20, 30 copies from collectors who held on to them thinking they were great long term bets. i bought 20 copies of magnus 1 and 2 each from him. wouldn't someone have sold them when they were hot under your theory?

 

i don't know about california, but here in NY unless you set up a table at a show or something it was really tough to sell anything. go into a shop, virtually any shop, and they would offer you pennies on the dollar, maybe some trade value. a lot of people would just say "F-IT" and hold on to their stuff. I never sold anything then, what was the point, my friend owned a shop and even he would only offer me rip-off prices for anything and he could do it because no store in NYC would pay for anything. once he gave me $35 in store credit for Gen 1 and 2 because he was selling them to someone for $50, that's about it. frankly, i don't know how the hobby survived when there was practically no way to sell these "valuable" investments unless you were willing to set up at a show or had such good stuff you could put them in an auction.

 

lack of liquidity for most comic collectors meant many books stayed in their collections just because they had nowhere to unload them.

[mysterio]

I have to chuckle at this conversation a bit. Like many books from this era, they were printed with insane levels of demand. The supply overhang will exist for a long time and demand will probably never justify the price on this book as being valuable. Yes, it's possible that massive inflation could justify a $200-$300 price tag but I sincerely believe that most people buying at these prices don't understand the poor investment potential of these common books. I think some dealers take advantage of this ignorance and collude to set market prices high. There is little justification for this being a $200-$300 book.

 

The justification is that people are actually paying $200-225 for CGC 9.8 copies (I've not yet heard of folks paying $300, if anything it seems to have cooled back to $200 from slightly higher six months ago).

 

Nice raw NM copies of this book are easy $45 (NM-) to $60 (NM+) sellers at shows. We routinely sell out of copies at these prices, and there is a ton of demand even for lower grade copies. We can't keep it in stock, and have occasionally had to resort to paying market prices on eBay to have them for the wall (where we still sell them, albeit for a smaller profit margin).

 

Say what you will about the supply, but the demand side of the equation is definitely there at these prices. Will it be forever? Who knows. But for now the market is quite healthy at these levels. I wouldn't be "investing" in them at these levels, but they are currently selling there. But current performance doesn't guarantee future returns, yadda yadda.

[the blob]

If you sat on "over 20 copies" of a book that was selling for $25 a month or so after it came out, you were doing it wrong. What were you hoping...the book would go to $50? $100?

 

-----------

 

no everyone is a wheeler and dealer like you. aside from selling at two shows in the 90s (one of which was a huge bust and both were after the "boom" of the early 90s), i never sold a darn thing until 2000 or so when i started selling on ebay and even then just a trickle -- only so many hours in the day. plenty of books i owned got hot and sat in a box and then got unhot. sure, i was doing it wrong, but i had nowhere to sell to and i worked about 80 hours a week, so i didn't really have the time or energy to sell at local shows 2-3 times a month and be a junior dealer.

 

 

 

Yes, because X-Men 94 and Hulk 181 never really went down in perceived value, and because opg rarely lowered a price, in 1992 a lot of people figured that a hot first appearance of a good character would always retain its value and possibly go up.

 

remember, we were seeing recent books like harbinger 1 hit $100+++ and ASM 300 (and no, i'm not saying they were that expensive exactly when 361 came out, but clearly by then perceptions were that there was money that could be made). many people weren't thinking as much about print-runs and how that could help push a book high if there was demand. yes, it was no rational, but neither was people buying 3 million copies of xmen 1.

[Peter G]

I have to chuckle at this conversation a bit. Like many books from this era, they were printed with insane levels of demand. The supply overhang will exist for a long time and demand will probably never justify the price on this book as being valuable. Yes, it's possible that massive inflation could justify a $200-$300 price tag but I sincerely believe that most people buying at these prices don't understand the poor investment potential of these common books. I think some dealers take advantage of this ignorance and collude to set market prices high. There is little justification for this being a $200-$300 book.

 

The justification is that people are actually paying $200-225 for CGC 9.8 copies (I've not yet heard of folks paying $300, if anything it seems to have cooled back to $200 from slightly higher six months ago).

 

Nice raw NM copies of this book are easy $45 (NM-) to $60 (NM+) sellers at shows. We routinely sell out of copies at these prices, and there is a ton of demand even for lower grade copies. We can't keep it in stock, and have occasionally had to resort to paying market prices on eBay to have them for the wall (where we still sell them, albeit for a smaller profit margin).

 

Say what you will about the supply, but the demand side of the equation is definitely there at these prices. Will it be forever? Who knows. But for now the market is quite healthy at these levels. I wouldn't be "investing" in them at these levels, but they are currently selling there. But current performance doesn't guarantee future returns, yadda yadda.

 

I have no doubt that there are many foolish people that are buying ASM 361 today for silly prices. Foolishness never seems to go out of vogue.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I ordered comic books for our comic book store during this time period. Orders were placed by comic books stores with a full gamut if promotional materials. I distinctly remember that there was a lot of promotion on this particular issue.

 

 

Do you have any of that material still? That would be invaluable.

 

Hence the book was targeted as likely to be hot even before it hit the shelves. Our store ordered massive massive amounts of asm 361.

 

How many, and how did those orders compare to your orders for issues #359 and #360?

 

Sorry, this material is long long gone. Thrown out shortly after orders were filled.

 

That's unfortunate. Memories are notoriously unreliable. It would be nice to put some hard numbers to "massive massive amounts."

 

But I remember the mindset, and 359 and 360 would not be big order books because of the weak villain and no venom.

 

361 in particular was heavily ordered but do was 362 and 363 because of carnage and venom were deemed cool by the massive demand we expected on future demand. We like most stores would not just order to fill initial demand but to have supply stretching into the unknown future too.

 

The numbers say that #361 was, by far, the lightest ordered of the three.

 

But yes, in those days, many (most?) stores ordered additional material to have as back stock. Those were the days.

[the blob]

 

I have no doubt that there are many foolish people that are buying ASM 361 today for silly prices. Foolishness never seems to go out of vogue.

 

i only own like 4 copies between the 1st and 2d print so it must be pretty "rare" ;-)

 

$50 or whatever doesn't seem that crazy for a really nice raw copy if you like the character. that's less than what those deadpool/punisher issues go for and other than a low print-run and being cool, what's their significance?

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

I think you are maybe missing the point. The book didn't need to be deemed "special" to know that it would sell.

 

Oh, I think I have the point pretty well. This place, and others like it, are notorious for "remembering" things a certain way, when any attempt at a forensic analysis, no matter how weak, usually shatters those "remembrances."

 

As, of course, is the case here. Lots and lots of "we ordered massive massive amounts" and "I know people who bought cases" and "people pre-ordered hundreds of copies"...but yet, no hard data is supplied by those making such comments. Anecdotes are interesting, but they aren't evidence. Anyone can make things up (not suggesting anyone is), and memory is not reliable.

 

Look at the data. Look at the facts. Look at the information. The factual material we actually have simply does not jibe with what you're claiming.

 

Nothing personal, and no offense, but you've changed your story. You went from "I distinctly remember that there was a lot of promotion on this particular issue" to "The book didn't need to be deemed "special" to know that it would sell."

 

Which is it? Was the book heavily promoted, or did it not need to BE promoted?

 

And I hope this doesn't make you mad. Hopefully, it inspires you to dig for more information, to get at the heart of what really happened, rather than just what we "remember" happened.

 

Contrary to the claims of many, I would love to be proven wrong, because that means the truth came out as it actually is, and we know what really happened. The people who make that accusation are usually, themselves, the ones who don't like to be proven wrong.

 

So, by all means...prove me wrong.

 

Just seeing that cover in previews would be sufficient cause to place a very large order.

 

Really...? The numbers paint a different picture. Do you dispute the numbers?

[Broke as a Joke]

Since it has been established that this was before the internet selling days. If you had a large stack of 361 and you were not a dealer, what else were you going to do besides sit on them? Were you really going to go to an LCS or another dealer and sell them for a mere $5 profit? (And that's being generous)

 

I would like to know the dealers that were shelling out big money to buy copies of 361 back then.

[RockMyAmadeus]

If you sat on "over 20 copies" of a book that was selling for $25 a month or so after it came out, you were doing it wrong. What were you hoping...the book would go to $50? $100?

 

-----------

 

no everyone is a wheeler and dealer like you.

 

I wasn't a wheeler and dealer, either. When this book came out, I was 19 years old, working part time, and going to school part time. I had very little money to my name.

 

aside from selling at two shows in the 90s (one of which was a huge bust and both were after the "boom" of the early 90s), i never sold a darn thing until 2000 or so when i started selling on ebay and even then just a trickle -- only so many hours in the day. plenty of books i owned got hot and sat in a box and then got unhot. sure, i was doing it wrong, but i had nowhere to sell to and i worked about 80 hours a week, so i didn't really have the time or energy to sell at local shows 2-3 times a month and be a junior dealer.

 

So, how many copies did you buy specifically to trade/sell when the book came out?

 

Yes, because X-Men 94 and Hulk 181 never really went down in perceived value, and because opg rarely lowered a price, in 1992 a lot of people figured that a hot first appearance of a good character would always retain its value and possibly go up.

 

That's not entirely true. X-Men #94 (and the rest) suffered a pretty significant downturn in the mid to late 80's (1987-1990-ish)

 

As far as insta-hot books like ASM #361, there weren't that many people who bought multiples and then just sat on them. Sure, there were a few...but basic human nature tells us that when the book hit $10-$15-$25 within a month or two, those multiples got sold (ie distributed.) $25 was a pretty decent "ceiling" price in 1992 for brand new books. Very, very few books became $25 books within a month or two of release. That would remain true until later that year, when Superman #75 would establish a new ceiling.

 

remember, we were seeing recent books like harbinger 1 hit $100+++ and ASM 300 (and no, i'm not saying they were that expensive exactly when 361 came out, but clearly by then perceptions were that there was money that could be made).

 

Again, this isn't true. Harbinger #1 was barely 3 months old when ASM #361 came out. Valiant did not hit its stride until AFTER Unity wrapped up, which was 6+ months after ASM #361. The big prices for Valiants were in the Winter/Spring of 1992/1993.

 

And ASM #300 was valuable at that point because it was a Todd McFarlane book, not because it was Venom. Remember: things didn't kick into high gear for Venom until the Lethal Protector mini-series came out, almost a full year after ASM #361.

 

Remember...there is a significant, substantial difference between books that simmered to a boil...like ASM #298, #300, etc...and books that were insta-hot, like Superman #50, Batman #426-429, ASM #252, Thor #337, ASM #361....books that no one really saw coming. Those books are very, very rare in the history of comics.

 

Walking Dead #1, for example, was not an instant success. There was a 9.8 that sold for $33...barely the cost of the slab...a year and a half after it came out.

 

Those types of books are far more common, and the bulk of what we consider "valuable" books. However, books that are instantly hot out of the gate, which no one saw coming, are very, very rare (and when I say "no one", I'm speaking colloquially, I don't mean literally not one single person. Let's not be silly, folks.)

 

many people weren't thinking as much about print-runs and how that could help push a book high if there was demand. yes, it was no rational, but neither was people buying 3 million copies of xmen 1.

 

Print run information in those days was a very closely guarded secret, accessible mostly by the big distributors and the publishers. Certainly, the average person on the street had no idea, unless it was for the record breakers, and even then, that information was slow in coming out.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Since it has been established that this was before the internet selling days. If you had a large stack of 361 and you were not a dealer, what else were you going to do besides sit on them? Were you really going to go to an LCS or another dealer and sell them for a mere $5 profit? (And that's being generous)

 

I would like to know the dealers that were shelling out big money to buy copies of 361 back then.

 

You did what everyone did: you traded them for other stuff. If you were really enterprising, you bought a table for $40 at a local hotel con and set up a table.

 

And yes, in 1992, $5 profit was a pretty substantial return on a $1.25 (or less) investment.

 

Do you not see the fatal flaw in your statement? Why would you be buying "large stacks" of a book if you had no way to benefit from doing so?

 

So, great, you buy 20 copies for $1.25 each...now what? If there's no way to turn them into something beneficial, buying those 20 copies is pointless, unless you're a weirdo who likes multiple copies of the same book for no reason other than to have them.

 

In 1990, I traded a Groo #1 (Pacific) that I paid something like $5 for for a VF/NM copy of Batman #251 in Berkeley CA. I still have that book.

 

At Wondercon in Feb of 1991, I traded a duplicate copy of New Mutants #90 for a Fine-ish Batman #234 (still have that one, too.)

 

At a local store (Halley's Comics in Hayward, CA), in 1991, I traded a New Mutants #90 and #91 (duplicates) for beat up copies of ASM #17 and #40...could have gotten a #7, and should have, but it was badly rolled, and was just a mess. Still...should have done it.

 

I still have both of those books, too.

 

You traded them to other collectors, and yes, to dealers, for stuff you wanted. At Halley's Comics and the Land of Nevawuz, I could get 50% trade credit (yeah, I know, but hey....that's the way it went) for other books that I wanted. If ASM #361 was a $25 book, and they needed it, I could get $12.50 trade credit.

 

Not a bad deal, if I spent $1.25 (minus discount) for it.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I have to chuckle at this conversation a bit. Like many books from this era, they were printed with insane levels of demand. The supply overhang will exist for a long time and demand will probably never justify the price on this book as being valuable. Yes, it's possible that massive inflation could justify a $200-$300 price tag but I sincerely believe that most people buying at these prices don't understand the poor investment potential of these common books. I think some dealers take advantage of this ignorance and collude to set market prices high. There is little justification for this being a $200-$300 book.

 

As Mysterio said, those prices are for CGC 9.8 copies., and not even $300.

 

I don't know how one colludes to set market prices high when there's eBay and the internet.

 

Price collusion for common back issues ended with the advent of the internet. The justification for the book's prices are completed sales. Can't argue with the numbers.

[Broke as a Joke]

Because like many have already stated in here, they bought alot of copies and held them. Thus, even if unintentionally, they became hoarders. Everyone in that period was buying multiple issues. It wasn't because they had the motivation to sell right away. No, the mentality at the time was buy 10 copies now and put your kids through college later. This was much of what led to the big crash.

 

To act like there was not hoarding going on with ASM 361 or any book back in that time period is naïve. Especially a book with that large of a print run. But maybe being a teenager during that time period would not allow oneself to make the proper judgment.

[Peter G]

 

I think you are maybe missing the point. The book didn't need to be deemed "special" to know that it would sell.

 

Oh, I think I have the point pretty well. This place, and others like it, are notorious for "remembering" things a certain way, when any attempt at a forensic analysis, no matter how weak, usually shatters those "remembrances."

 

As, of course, is the case here. Lots and lots of "we ordered massive massive amounts" and "I know people who bought cases" and "people pre-ordered hundreds of copies"...but yet, no hard data is supplied by those making such comments. Anecdotes are interesting, but they aren't evidence. Anyone can make things up (not suggesting anyone is), and memory is not reliable.

 

Look at the data. Look at the facts. Look at the information. The factual material we actually have simply does not jibe with what you're claiming.

 

Nothing personal, and no offense, but you've changed your story. You went from "I distinctly remember that there was a lot of promotion on this particular issue" to "The book didn't need to be deemed "special" to know that it would sell."

 

Which is it? Was the book heavily promoted, or did it not need to BE promoted?

 

And I hope this doesn't make you mad. Hopefully, it inspires you to dig for more information, to get at the heart of what really happened, rather than just what we "remember" happened.

 

Contrary to the claims of many, I would love to be proven wrong, because that means the truth came out as it actually is, and we know what really happened. The people who make that accusation are usually, themselves, the ones who don't like to be proven wrong.

 

So, by all means...prove me wrong.

 

Just seeing that cover in previews would be sufficient cause to place a very large order.

 

Really...? The numbers paint a different picture. Do you dispute the numbers?

 

My friend,

 

The burden of evidence is not on me (or anybody here) to prove anything to YOUR satisfaction.

 

I merely stated my remembrances to support my opinions and conclusion.

 

YOU are the one disagreeing with multiple people's opinions and yet YOU provide no evidence to us. You make no case to sway the jury.

 

Merely telling everybody that our remembrances are faulty is a WEAK argument.

 

So, please. step it up a bit if you want to win YOUR case counselor.

 

 

Peter G

[RockMyAmadeus]

Were people buying multiple copies at $1.25? Of course. Were they hoarding them? Absolutely not. There was far too much upward pressure on the book's value to do that. Once it crossed the $10 threshold, people started trading them, and then outright selling them.

 

Remember: this was before the internet, and communication among collectors was spotty, at best. There wasn't much of an outlet for the average person to sell multiples, except to dealers...which is generally what happened.

 

What does hoarding mean? It means people buy multiple copies to SET ASIDE for the FUTURE (or, whatever else they want to do; the point being that they have no intention of selling the books any time soon.) And after all, why does one buy multiple copies of anything that is new? Because they are speculating; hoping the item goes up in value. If and when that happens, their goal is achieved, and they sell.

 

---------------

 

too many assumptions there about what people do or do not do.

 

Not at all. Rather, a basic understanding of human nature.

 

dealers and collectors were stockpiling plenty in 1992 working under the belief that a hot book will hold its value a long time. my local shop had a palette of wolverine 50s he was selling off for years. ditto darkhawk 9 and several others (not to mention speculation from a decade earlier like a long box of thor 339). (I'm just remembering what he would always have out) . Sounds like a hoard to me.

 

You're making some fundamental errors, here.

 

First, we're not talking about dealers who are carrying inventory. That's a completely different argument.

 

Second, though it seemed in 1992 that every hot book would "maintain its value for a long time", anyone in comics for more than, oh, say a year or two would realize that that wasn't even remotely true, even for the hottest, most bluechip of comics. For example, did you know that in the early to mid 80's, Silver Age Marvels...all the way up to FF #1 and AF #15...suffered a not-insubstantial retreat from 1980-1981 values? Those wouldn't recover until 1987 or so.

 

And, the X-Men suffered a fairly serious withdrawal in the mid to late 80's? There are report after report in the OPG Update about "X-Men from #95-143 still dead. Can't give them away."

 

Justice League #1 (1987) was a very hot book in 1988. By 1992, it was a $1 book.

 

Green Arrow Longbow Hunters was the same.

 

Nick Fury vs. Shield #2 was a $20 book in 1988.

 

Can you get $1 for it now?

 

You use examples like Darkhawk #9, Wolverine #50, and Thor #339, none of which saw any substantial increase in value, ever. Wolverine #50 was cool, but if it was ever a $5 book, I'd be surprised. Thor #339 wasn't the money book...#337 was...and even still, by the late 80's, it had been forgotten.

 

when things went bust and he was buying collections in the late 90s for $5-10 a long box he would get boxes of books with once $10-$25 books, 10, 20, 30 copies from collectors who held on to them thinking they were great long term bets. i bought 20 copies of magnus 1 and 2 each from him. wouldn't someone have sold them when they were hot under your theory?

 

Again: Magnus #1 was NOT the same type of book that ASM #361 was. You're missing the fundamental center of my argument. I'm referring only to books that were instantly hot, sold out immediately, and selling for a substantial premium within a very short period of time.

 

It was still possible to buy Magnus #1s for cover price a YEAR after it was published.

 

i don't know about california, but here in NY unless you set up a table at a show or something it was really tough to sell anything. go into a shop, virtually any shop, and they would offer you pennies on the dollar, maybe some trade value. a lot of people would just say "F-IT" and hold on to their stuff.

 

And, at that point, they'd learn to NOT buy multiple copies of brand new books to flip, having no mechanism by which to flip them.

 

I never sold anything then, what was the point, my friend owned a shop and even he would only offer me rip-off prices for anything and he could do it because no store in NYC would pay for anything. once he gave me $35 in store credit for Gen 1 and 2 because he was selling them to someone for $50, that's about it. frankly, i don't know how the hobby survived when there was practically no way to sell these "valuable" investments unless you were willing to set up at a show or had such good stuff you could put them in an auction.

 

lack of liquidity for most comic collectors meant many books stayed in their collections just because they had nowhere to unload them.

 

Right...at which point, they quickly STOPPED trying to buy multiple copies of brand new books to flip.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

I think you are maybe missing the point. The book didn't need to be deemed "special" to know that it would sell.

 

Oh, I think I have the point pretty well. This place, and others like it, are notorious for "remembering" things a certain way, when any attempt at a forensic analysis, no matter how weak, usually shatters those "remembrances."

 

As, of course, is the case here. Lots and lots of "we ordered massive massive amounts" and "I know people who bought cases" and "people pre-ordered hundreds of copies"...but yet, no hard data is supplied by those making such comments. Anecdotes are interesting, but they aren't evidence. Anyone can make things up (not suggesting anyone is), and memory is not reliable.

 

Look at the data. Look at the facts. Look at the information. The factual material we actually have simply does not jibe with what you're claiming.

 

Nothing personal, and no offense, but you've changed your story. You went from "I distinctly remember that there was a lot of promotion on this particular issue" to "The book didn't need to be deemed "special" to know that it would sell."

 

Which is it? Was the book heavily promoted, or did it not need to BE promoted?

 

And I hope this doesn't make you mad. Hopefully, it inspires you to dig for more information, to get at the heart of what really happened, rather than just what we "remember" happened.

 

Contrary to the claims of many, I would love to be proven wrong, because that means the truth came out as it actually is, and we know what really happened. The people who make that accusation are usually, themselves, the ones who don't like to be proven wrong.

 

So, by all means...prove me wrong.

 

Just seeing that cover in previews would be sufficient cause to place a very large order.

 

Really...? The numbers paint a different picture. Do you dispute the numbers?

 

My friend,

 

The burden of evidence is not on me (or anybody here) to prove anything to YOUR satisfaction.

 

No, the burden of proof is on anyone making a claim.

 

I made a claim. I proved it.

 

You made a claim. You didn't prove it, then changed it.

 

Again, not trying to make you mad or offend you, but that is what it is.

 

I merely stated my remembrances to support my opinions and conclusion.

 

Memories are notoriously unreliable. Do not be offended if you say "I remember in 1947 when dollar bills were called yellowtails on account of their ability to turn invisible in direct sunlight" and someone challenges you on that.

 

 

YOU are the one disagreeing with multiple people's opinions and yet YOU provide no evidence to us. You make no case to sway the jury.

 

As someone has said, "the plural of anecdote is not evidence."

 

The amount of people being disagreed with has no bearing on the validity of any opinion.

 

And what do you mean, "YOU provide no evidence"? Did you miss the Cap City, Diamond, Comichron, and Previews data that I posted?

 

What do you think that is....?

 

Merely telling everybody that our remembrances are faulty is a WEAK argument.

 

If that's all that I did, you would be correct. That's not all that I did.

 

So, please. step it up a bit if you want to win YOUR case counselor.

 

 

Peter G

 

I've provided the order numbers for multiple issues according to Capital City, one of the largest distributors of comic books at the time.

 

I've provided the order rankings from Diamond, also one of the largest distributors.

 

I've provided the published Statement of Ownership numbers for the range of issues in question.

 

I've provided photos of the pertinent pages in Previews.

 

So, I have to ask...what evidence have you provided?

 

Don't get mad, don't get frustrated, and don't get snippy. If you have evidence, by all means, provide it. If you don't, don't claim others have provided "no evidence" when this thread is littered with it, and don't get angry if someone challenges your memories. I wouldn't expect ANYONE to take me at my word based only on my memories...so why should you?

 

[Peter G]

My friend,

 

You have not shifted the evidentiary burden to me or anybody.

 

1. The testimony of everybody here on the board you dismiss as irrelevant.

 

2. The Previews magazine you produced supports MY belief that dealers over ordered this book because they knew with the venom cover it would sell.

 

3. Statement of Ownership is weak evidence. I know because I used to work in CIrculations Management and the POst office requires an annual mandatory filing. It's basically meaningless.

 

So please make your case or don't but please don't shift the burden into me or the boards for your failing to prove YOUR case

 

Best,

 

Peter G

[mysterio]

My friend,

 

You have not shifted the evidentiary burden to me or anybody.

 

1. The testimony of everybody here on the board you dismiss as irrelevant.

 

2. The Previews magazine you produced supports MY belief that dealers over ordered this book because they knew with the venom cover it would sell.

 

3. Statement of Ownership is weak evidence. I know because I used to work in CIrculations Management and the POst office requires an annual mandatory filing. It's basically meaningless.

 

So please make your case or don't but please don't shift the burden into me or the boards for your failing to prove YOUR case

 

Best,

 

Peter G

 

But what about the order info from Diamond and Cap City? That has no bearing on your statement #2 above? You know, about dealers ordering the book?