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Top 50 Copper Books in Overstreet
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402 posts in this topic

In 1990 the Marvel Universe series 1 cards came out. Not only was there a Venom card but a Spider-man vs. Venom card. Series 2 had the same thing.

Series 1 also had matchups of Spider-man with Kraven, Dr. Octopus, Green Goblim and the Hobgoblin. Venom, by that point in 1990 was considered that important by Marvel. Obviously, Kraven's and Hobgoblin's importance may have been overstated but the point is, Venom was that big already. A year later, came another matchup card which I think chronicled a later battle, also deemed that important that it deserved almost immediate recognition. No slow burn. Harley Quinn? Deadpool? Slow burns. 

Venom didn't make a Wizard cover until issue 9 in May 1992. Then not even again til Feb 1993. 

I didn't maintain catalogs from then so no luck there. In the Northeast United Stated, Venom was always huge and Marvel agreed.

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6 minutes ago, PeterPark said:

Did you think contemporaneous was not a word? Why restate the same parenthetically (meaning, in parentheses)?

Clearly, I did not think contemporaneous was not a word, since I used it in context correctly. The definition was given because not everyone reading may know what "contemporaneous" means. It's a device that a writer sometimes uses to help the audience understand what he or she is trying to say.

8 minutes ago, PeterPark said:

I don't follow how this didn't happen in your area. 

Because it didn't happen in ANY area.

9 minutes ago, PeterPark said:

Carnage capitalized on Venom's popularity. 

Carnage was popular because Carnage was awesome. Carnage was an instant hit...the first instant ASM sellout, by the way, since #252 (to bring this around full circle.)

21 minutes ago, PeterPark said:

Did you buy back issues then?

Yes. Quite often.

22 minutes ago, PeterPark said:

Price guides like Overstreet are notoriously conservative with new books.

Yes, that is true. But the Update...especially under Jon Warren's tenure...was not. Jon had his finger on the pulse of the market, pre-internet, and the Update was a very fair reflection of the market, especially from 1988-1992. 

By early 1992, ASM #300 was a four year old book...hardly "new" anymore.

23 minutes ago, PeterPark said:

Look at New Mutants 98 throughout the 2000's.

What should I be looking for? New Mutants #98 didn't start to climb in popularity until 2008, which is well reflected in GPA.

25 minutes ago, PeterPark said:

I'm talking about actual sales.

So am I. Back in the late 80s/early 90s...pre-internet, remember...every store I went to on a regular basis....and that was every store in the San Francisco Bay Area...used the Update to price their books. Because there was no mechanism for collectors to sell to each other, they didn't have much choice but to pay those prices. 

26 minutes ago, PeterPark said:

Venom issues were worth more than the surrounding McFarlane issues

Not in 1988. Nor in 1989. Nor in 1990. Nor in 1991. By 1992? Yes.

Now...was there slightly more demand for some Venom issues because of Venom? Sure...mainly the awesome #316. But not #315 and not #317. And certainly not enough to register with the price guides OR price lists of the era. 

41 minutes ago, PeterPark said:

The Venom issues cooled after the early 90's but everything did. Maybe you are thinking of that time?

No.

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39 minutes ago, PeterPark said:

In 1990 the Marvel Universe series 1 cards came out. Not only was there a Venom card but a Spider-man vs. Venom card. Series 2 had the same thing.

 

And what other cards were there...?

39 minutes ago, PeterPark said:

Series 1 also had matchups of Spider-man with Kraven, Dr. Octopus, Green Goblim and the Hobgoblin. Venom, by that point in 1990 was considered that important by Marvel. Obviously, Kraven's and Hobgoblin's importance may have been overstated but the point is, Venom was that big already. A year later, came another matchup card which I think chronicled a later battle, also deemed that important that it deserved almost immediate recognition. No slow burn. Harley Quinn? Deadpool? Slow burns. 

This is your evidence that Venom was "insanely popular"...? A couple of cards in a couple of 162 card sets?

There was also an Alpha Flight card...AND a Hellfire Club card. Were AF and HC both insanely popular...?

Series 2 had a Psylocke card. Was Psylocke...a "new" character...insanely popular....? It also had a Puck card. Was Puck insanely popular...?

Was Kraven and Hobgoblin's importance overstated? Hobgoblin was the #1 Spidey villain in 1991-1992. Anything Hobby appeared in...even drek like Web #38 and #48, and Spect Spid #147...was broken out. Was Kraven and Hobby's importance overstated...? Or are you understating them...?

Again: between ASM #298 and ASM #361, the Punisher appeared in 233 different comic books, around half of which he was the main character.

Venom, in the same time period...? 22. Less than 10% of the Punisher.

Only 7 of which contained more than 1-3 pages of him. Remember, this is Marvel, which will milk anything that they think might even remotely sell to within an inch of its life....hence the veritable explosion of Venom books in 1993. Fandom had awoken to the splendor that is Venom, and Marvel saw the results.

And REMEMBER: Erik Larsen HATED the character, and drew him as goofily as he thought he could get away with, precisely to tank the character.

The Punisher was insanely popular at this time.

Venom...? Not so much.

Edited by RockMyAmadeus
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2 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

No, I'm pretty sure none of this is the case. I'm not sure being the main character/villain in a mere seven (7) comics in four years would qualify as being "insanely popular", but maybe my understanding is off? And McFarlane knew the rules of comic creation (Venom was Michelinie's idea, in any event) at the time, and knew any character he created with Marvel would not be his to control. I've never seen anything that suggests that he wanted control over Venom.  McFarlane did want more control over the creative process, which is why he was given the Spider-Man title...but, over 15 issues, there's no Venom appearance. 

hm.

The reason the Punisher was chosen for comparison is because, for that time, the Punisher is an excellent example of an insanely popular character. No, it would be a mistake to claim that the initial popularity of ASM #300 was "Venom-driven." It was not. It was all about McFarlane. 

As far as Cable goes...there was no new character more popular in 1991 than Cable. New Mutants #87 was the hottest single back issue for most of 1991. Cable was far bigger than Venom, far faster. 

But, by all means, if you have evidence or proof of your claims, I'm sure a number of people would be quite interested in it. 

:)

 

Here is a collected Venom TPB I bought as a kid in 1992.  The first edition of this TPB was 1990.  In 1990, Venom was already so big that he warranted a trade paperback, which is unusual for a new villain.  Back in the late 80's/early 90's, publishers werent in the habit of collecting runs in TPB like they do now, TPBs were for something special.  To get his own TPB in 1990, 2 years after his introduction, shows how big he was as early as 1990.  By 1992 when I finally bought the TPB, which was the most I had ever spent on a comic, I was already a huge venom fan as was everyone I knew, and there was no way I could come close to affording any of the McFarlane run.  Yes, he grew bigger year by year, and by the time ASM375 hit, he was just about the hottest thing marvel had, but he was still red hot prior to that.

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Just now, waaaghboss said:

Here is a collected Venom TPB I bought as a kid in 1992.  The first edition of this TPB was 1990.  In 1990, Venom was already so big that he warranted a trade paperback, which is unusual for a new villain.  Back in the late 80's/early 90's, publishers werent in the habit of collecting runs in TPB like they do now, TPBs were for something special.  To get his own TPB in 1990, 2 years after his introduction, shows how big he was as early as 1990.  By 1992 when I finally bought the TPB, which was the most I had ever spent on a comic, I was already a huge venom fan as was everyone I knew, and there was no way I could come close to affording any of the McFarlane run.  Yes, he grew bigger year by year, and by the time ASM375 hit, he was just about the hottest thing marvel had, but he was still red hot prior to that.

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It's important to keep in mind that no one has said Venom was a bad character, and no one cared about him at all. That would...quite obviously...be untrue.

But you have to put these things in context. That trade would not exist were it not for Todd McFarlane. And you are incorrect when you say Venom was "so big he warranted a trade paperback." The title isn't "Venom vs. Spider-man." It's Spider-Man...vs. Venom in subscript.

After all...in the same year (1990), Marvel published a four issue prestige format series called "Havok & Wolverine." 

Was Havok a huge Marvel property? Insanely popular? In 1990, Marvel also published an ALF trade paperback...within weeks of the show being cancelled. 

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Again: your experience is great, but it's not evidence. My experience is great, but it's not evidence. 

Evidence...writing that discusses these issues in publications that focused on collecting comics...is what matters. Show me the market reports from dealers who sold back issues for a living that talk about how big Venom was at the time...not the glossy, rose-colored memories of young, and easily influenced, boys.

After all....The Poseidon Adventure (1972) is one of the masterpieces of the cinematic artform...right?

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14 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

It's important to keep in mind that no one has said Venom was a bad character, and no one cared about him at all. That would...quite obviously...be untrue.

But you have to put these things in context. That trade would not exist were it not for Todd McFarlane. And you are incorrect when you say Venom was "so big he warranted a trade paperback." The title isn't "Venom vs. Spider-man." It's Spider-Man...vs. Venom in subscript.

After all...in the same year (1990), Marvel published a four issue prestige format series called "Havok & Wolverine." 

Was Havok a huge Marvel property? Insanely popular? In 1990, Marvel also published an ALF trade paperback...within weeks of the show being cancelled. 

s-l1600.jpg

Again: your experience is great, but it's not evidence. My experience is great, but it's not evidence. 

Evidence...writing that discusses these issues in publications that focused on collecting comics...is what matters. Show me the market reports from dealers who sold back issues for a living that talk about how big Venom was at the time...not the glossy, rose-colored memories of young, and easily influenced, boys.

After all....The Poseidon Adventure (1972) is one of the masterpieces of the cinematic artform...right?

Deleted most of my post because I don't like the tone I took, but I'll just say that Alf was hot up until the 4th season, the Venom TPB was about venom regardless of how they titled it, and havok and wolvie came out in 88 and wasnt a TBP   :)

 

 

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Edited by waaaghboss
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3 hours ago, waaaghboss said:

Havok + Wolverine was a great prestige series, but hardly a reprinted TPB, so that's just a strange comparison to try and make. 

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You were saying....?

The point of the comparison is that "not that hot" characters were published all the time. Having a trade paperback does not, in and of itself, prove that a character was the hottest thing since sliced bread.

3 hours ago, waaaghboss said:

Alf was a hit up until it's 4th season, and the book was clearly selling well enough for marvel to push out TPB

Right...which refutes your earlier suggestion that, at this time, trade paperbacks were only made "for something special" and that Venom was "so big, he warranted a trade paperback." Was ALF "so big, he warranted a trade paperback"...?

Clearly, they were made because Marvel thought they would sell. No other reason necessary.

You're trying to change the goalposts.

3 hours ago, waaaghboss said:

Again, I'm not sure how this is to show that Venom getting his TPB in 1990 doesnt imply he was hot....he clearly was.

No argument from me. But that's not what I said. The reason that trade paperback exists is because of Todd McFarlane...not Venom. In 1990, there was no "hotter" artist on the planet than Todd McFarlane...in comics, at least. Marvel capitalized on McFarlane's popularity and made the TPB, because it was the only Spidey character that McFarlane had worked on to that point that would fill a trade.

3 hours ago, waaaghboss said:

Hot characters were getting reprinted TPBs.

No. Material that Marvel thought would SELL was getting reprinted TPBs.

3 hours ago, waaaghboss said:

Some of the tone in this topic I'm replying to are people claiming that Venom wasnt a force until 1993.  Clearly not the case.  Pointing out that the TPB is titled Spiderman Vs Venom, thus it's not....a venom hit...its just pedantic and weird.  The TPB reprint is venom focused.  It puts in one panel from ASM 298, and 299, which both show venom.  The whole point of the TPB was that people wanted venom.  

The whole point of that TPB was that what people really wanted was McFarlane.

At this point, all the vague, qualitative language really needs to be dropped. What does ""a force" mean? It's meaningless, and can mean whatever you want it to mean. What does "huge venom fan" mean? Nothing, and everything, all at the same time. What does "bigger and bigger every year" mean? Nothing, and everything, all at the same time.

So let's set all of that anecdotal stuff aside, and let's focus on what really matters: show me evidence...market reports, price lists, articles, ANYTHING...that supports your claims.

And when you look back at the record, you'll find out that Venom was not quite as big or popular as you thought he was, when you thought he was.

Sorry folks.

Edited by RockMyAmadeus
Typos, typos, roly poly typos, typos, typos, eat them up, YUM!
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By the way...for those who WERE kids when Venom started to become popular...? I wasn't. I was a full grown a-dult, working IN the comics industry, for a distributor, at the time. 

True, credentials ought not mean anything...but to some, they might, so I throw it out there.

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26 minutes ago, waaaghboss said:

Deleted most of my post because I don't like the tone I took, but I'll just say that Alf was hot up until the 4th season, the Venom TPB was about venom regardless of how they titled it, and havok and wolvie came out in 88 and wasnt a TBP   :)

 

 

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Yes, thank you for the correction, I was thinking of the TPB, noted above.

(thumbsu

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13 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

s-l1600.jpg

You were saying....?

The point of the comparison is that "not that hot" characters were published all the time. Having a trade paperback does not, in and of itself, prove that a character was the hottest thing since sliced bread.

Right...which refutes your earlier suggestion that, at this time, trade paperbacks were only made "for something special" and that Venom was "so big, he warranted a trade paperback." Was ALF "so big, he warranted a trade paperback"...?

Clearly, they were made because Marvel thought they would sell. No other reason necessary.

You're trying to change the goalposts.

No argument from me. But that's not what I said. The reason that trade paperback exists is because of Todd McFarlane...not Venom. In 1990, there was no "hotter" artist on the planet than Todd McFarlane...in comics, at least. Marvel capitalized on McFarlane's popularity and made the TPB, because it was the only Spidey character that McFarlane had worked on to that point that would fill a trade.

No. Material that Marvel thought would SELL were getting reprinted TPBs.

The whole point if that TPB was that what people really wanted was McFarlane.

At this point, all the vague, qualitative language really needs to be dropped. What does ""a force" mean? It's meaningless, and can mean whatever you want it to mean. What does "huge venom fan" mean? Nothing, and everything, all at the same time. What does "bigger and bigger every year" mean? Nothing, and everything, all at the same time.

So let's set all of that anecdotal stuff aside, and let's focus on what really matters: show me evidence...market reports, price lists, articles, ANYTHING...that supports your claims.

And when you look back at the record, you'll find out that Venom was not quite as big or popular as you thought he was, when you thought he was.

Sorry folks.

Do you have access to sales data? I don't know how people find those numbers but compare Venom issues to those around them.

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Just now, PeterPark said:

Do you have access to sales data? I don't know how people find those numbers but compare Venom issues to those around them.

I was able to find an online copy of oversheet from 89, and ASM 300 wasnt hot at that point.  About 4 bucks mint.  Trying to find 90/91/92 overhseets to see the progression.

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2 hours ago, PeterPark said:

Do you have access to sales data? I don't know how people find those numbers but compare Venom issues to those around them.

Indeed I do.

Capital City numbers for ASM:

ASM #297 - 35,200

#298 - 36,300

#299 - 36,300

#300 - 42,000 (this is an approximation, the printed SCCB has this number, but the CD version doesnt, for some reason.)

#301 - 33,100

#302 -33,700

#313 - 45,900

#314 - 42,200

#315 - 41,400

#316 - 44,100

#317 - 44,700

#318 - 45,900

#319 - 48,800

#329 - 58,200

#330 (Punisher) - 72,000

#331 (Punisher) - 67,500

#332 - 58,500

#333 - 59,400

#334 - 63,300

#335 - 61,800

#342 - 57,900

#343 - 58,500

#344 - 61,500

#345 - 60,000

#346 - 64,800

#347 -63,000

#348 - 59,100

#349 - 65,100

#350 - 75,600

#359 - 60,600

#360 - 57,300

#361 - 68,700

#362 - 76,800

#363 - 102,600

#364 - 72,000

#365 - 221,700

#373 - 64,200

#374 - 95,400

#375 - 208,200

#376 - 67,400

Caveat: these are Cap City order numbers. They are, quite obviously, rounded. Cap City, during these years, only accounted for a portion of the Direct market. But...they are the only hard numbers we have, and they do a decent job of indicating broad trends.

So, we can see by these numbers that any "bump" Venom issues might have had was statistically negligible until issue #361. Of special note are the numbers for the Punisher issues, which were ordered in substantially higher numbers than the Venom issues that came right after...and, proving the power of series' within a series, the numbers for the Return of the Sinister Six were also substantially higher. 

You start to see a little bump for #346 and #347, but remember...these books came out a full three years after #300...and they aren't substantial bumps. And even then, the anniversary issue...#350...smoked them both.

Where you first start to see numbers go crazy is for #361...it's substantially higher than #360...but is that for Venom? Or Carnage? Clearly, it's for Carnage....and the massive numbers for the other two parts show that as well. The first real "we are ordering this because it is Venom and OMG IT'S VENOM!!!!" issues are #374 and #375. 

Edited by RockMyAmadeus
Typos. The bane of man's entire existence.
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1 hour ago, waaaghboss said:

I was able to find an online copy of oversheet from 89, and ASM 300 wasnt hot at that point.  About 4 bucks mint.  Trying to find 90/91/92 overhseets to see the progression.

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Oh yes, ASM #300 was hot at that point. Sales data for the 1989 OPG was compiled around December of 1988, and by that time, Todd had been on the book for a full year (ASM #298 came out in December of 1987.)

Look at the prices for the "regular" issues before #298: $1.00. Then look at the price for #298: $4.00. In 1989 terms, that would be like a new $4 book being worth $21 within a year. ASM #300, a mere ten months old at the time, was more than double cover.

McFarlane art gained in popularity over 1988, even moreso in 1989...then exploded in 1990, after Todd stopped doing ASM.

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In 1991-1992, Venom was no where near the top of the heap when it came to oversaturated characters- it was all Punisher, Wolverine, and Ghost Rider.  When the 1st Carnage issues cane out they were immediately flippable, but a fraction of the 2 things everyone had to get their paws on: Death of Superman and Shadowhawk #1. I got $25 and $70 for each in store credit immediately. Ridiculous- I bought silver and Bronze Age instead. :headbang:

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3 minutes ago, MYNAMEISLEGION said:

In 1991-1992, Venom was no where near the top of the heap when it came to oversaturated characters- it was all Punisher, Wolverine, and Ghost Rider.  

Ugh, yes. It was endless Ghost Rider this, and Punisher that, and Wolverine the other, and Ghost Rider starring in Punisher, and Wolverine starring in Ghost Rider, and Punisher starring in Wolverine, and blah blah blah, give it a rest. 

The 

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crossovers

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were

s-l1600.jpg

friggin

s-l1600.jpg

ENDLESS

s-l1600.jpg

:facepalm:

 

 

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I didn't think we meant over-saturation. No, Venom did not over-saturate until 1993 or so although that Darkhawk issue was cerrainly part of that.

As for Cap City, I'm not really sure what that is. And it doesn't look like books sold but rather books ordered. It follows a trend of ordering Todd McFarlane and then Larsen more and more but not ordering based on content other than artist. I wasn't making an argument about ordering.

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55 minutes ago, PeterPark said:

I didn't think we meant over-saturation. No, Venom did not over-saturate until 1993 or so although that Darkhawk issue was cerrainly part of that.

As for Cap City, I'm not really sure what that is. And it doesn't look like books sold but rather books ordered. It follows a trend of ordering Todd McFarlane and then Larsen more and more but not ordering based on content other than artist. I wasn't making an argument about ordering.

Ok, great...system deleted this post. Anyhoo, again, words like "over-saturation" don't mean anything. They could mean nothing, or they could mean everything, because they mean different things to different people. The only thing that counts is numbers and eyewitness reports written at the time it happened.

Capital City was a national distributor out of Wisconsin, one of the earliest national distributors, and one of the biggest, distributing comics throughout the 80s and well into the 90s. Their records are the only real data insight we have on a widescale that show actual numbers ordered for individual issues.

And as far as orders go, that is how the Direct market worked: what was ordered is what was sold. Retailers bought comics at a steep discount, but in exchange, had to keep what they ordered. Because of that, they tended to order only what they thought they could sell, which means those numbers are as close to actual sales numbers as we are ever likely to get. They are, for all intents, actual sales numbers, because they represent actual sales.

As far as that Darkhawk issue goes, A. that was the very first actual Venom crossover...ever...and B. it came out a few weeks before ASM #361. The second part, Darkhawk #14, came out a week or so after.

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4 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Ugh, yes. It was endless Ghost Rider this, and Punisher that, and Wolverine the other, and Ghost Rider starring in Punisher, and Wolverine starring in Ghost Rider, and Punisher starring in Wolverine, and blah blah blah, give it a rest. 

The 

 

crossovers

 

were

 

friggin

 

ENDLESS

 

:facepalm:

 

 

You missed FF 347. :grin:

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s-l1600.thumb.jpg.c0d923ad082bf936e3181551e9ea38e9.jpg

 

they really missed an opportunity here: hm

there should have been a follow up of 

Wolverine, Punisher, Ghost Rider: The Dark Heart Strikes back

Punisher, Wolverine Ghost Rider: Through a Heart Darkly

Ghost Rider, Punisher, Wolverine: Dark Heart Afternoon

Wolverine, Ghost Rider, Punisher: Return of the Dark Heart

Punisher, Ghost Rider, Wolverine: Fellowship of the Dark Hearts....

and then the Deluxe, gold foil Scratch and Sniff:  Wolverine, Punisher, Ghost Rider: The Horror, The Horror, The Horror :sorry:

 

But seriously, it was out of control- Venom was NOT a thing. not yet, there simply wasn't any room- any evidence to the contrary can be explained by either the Pre-image comic artist rock star driven sales (i.e. Mcfarlane) followed by Marvel's attempt to saturate the market at the beginning of Image by pumping out more titles and gimmicks to fill up the shelves and new stands. Look at Marvel's output by month in 1991-1993.  It was insane.  2 Barbie titles and other licensed properties as well, anything to fill up the shelf.  Slapping Wolvie, Punisher or Ghost Rider on the cover meant a 20-30% bump in orders.  Everyone was selling comics, everyone was starting to offer competing retail discounts to support the large orders, and people were scooping up multiple copies.  I was buying multiple copies of multiple titles every week at 20-30% off cover.  Eventually everyone sobered up and stopped and we spent 10 years with everyone and their mother trying to unload long boxes of (mostly) junk that was speculated on for $25-50 a long box.  Now here we are. (shrug)

Edited by MYNAMEISLEGION
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