Top 50 Copper Books in Overstreet 7 7

[Martin Sinescu]

Some really good stuff on your list.

 

• I agree about Kraven's Last Hunt being in there somehow. Although I already feel Spidey's numerous contributions are pushing out other contenders, this is one of the pinnacles of the era. I lean more toward Web 31, though, as part 1 of the story, but it's hard to choose one issue out of the whole (I'm more partial to the first half of the story myself, before Peter unearths himself and Spider-Krave is "fighting" crime). I think you'll have a tough time pushing PPSS 64 off with a recent uptick for C&D, but, to me, these characters were always on the fringe and not key.
   
  
• Tick Special Edition #1 warrants inclusion.
   
  
• With the TMNT stuff, I could see Gobbledygook being on there, but including the other two mostly for their rarity/value is a more superficial entry -- not that I'm saying you're superficial just that we need to ask "does this really make it a 'key' component of the era?" and I don't think either of these are significant for anything other than their rarity.
   
  
• I've never been a fan of DCP 47 being a key because it's the first app of He-Man. However, I didn't realize (until just now) that it came out within a month of GI Joe #1, so you could have the two on there for the same significance of introducing the toy tie-in era (and, later, Transformers, which is a bit late to the party to be on the list, if you ask me). GI Joe was the first issue of a (generally complex, well-written) 12-year series, though. Did that He-Man appearance start anything? I don't even know. I'd be fine with dropping it.
   
  
• Evil Ernie #1 and Spawn #1 (or Youngblood #1) could (and should) be seen as entry points for starting the next era, There's no doubt the big knocker girls were a key component of the next wave (what's been suggested as "Chromium Age"), so, whether she's relevant now (she's more of a niche but still has a following and EE 1 & 2 are big-buck books) or not, this book started a huge sub-genre of the market that was one of the defining characteristics of mid-to-late 90's comics. Same with the Image books, if they're left off of this list it's really because they have more to do with the next era while technically still having their foot in Copper. Just like with DCCP 26 and NTT 2, it seems silly to call those Bronze keys when they are significant for their impact on the next era.
   
  
• Hulk 340 and Killing Joke were on the list from last year, so you may have overlooked them or looked at a different list. I agree they both should be on there, just in case you saw a version where they were left off.
   
  
• The Cap Annual is significant, but mainly because of the stellar cover. I don't think that's enough to put it on the list. We could do a top 50 key covers list I do think a point could be made for some of the other issues in the Cap run, like 332.
   
  
• Tales of the Teen Titans 44, to answer your question if Nightwing is that important... yes. This book definitely needs to be on the list. Nightwing is pretty huge in the DCU and has been a staple in the decades since his introduction, maintaining several ongoing series across that period. "Robin" as he is known in the general populace, is D-ck Grayson, so it represents a life-altering change to a character that your average Joe Punchclock knows (yeah, I know they don't know who Nightwing is, but a large majority would know if you told them he was Robin, which is why I floated the idea of promoting NTT 39 where he hangs up the green speedo). This issue is pretty big as well because it is part of The Judas Contract, which is also acclaimed (rightly) as one of the most wonderfully-crafted stories of the Copper Era, not to mention featuring the origin of Deathstroke.
   
  
• Betty & Veronica 320 is, apparently, very significant to the Archie crowd. I don't know any of these people and I wasn't even aware of this book until recently, but there does seem to be quite an appreciation for it and I can see a rationale for its inclusion.
   
  

 

I hope 10 other people haven't responded in the time it took me to write that.

[Martin Sinescu]

Looking back, I'd also second the idea that Crisis 7 and/or 8 should supersede #1.

 

Also, I'll lobby for the inclusion of Punisher Limited #1. If any two characters were the torch-bearers for "grim n' gritty" it's Punisher and Wolverine. Punisher Limited broke Frank out as a stand-alone character and began a long and fruitful series of titles. Also, those Zeck covers are dreamy.

[comiconxion]

Also, I'll lobby for the inclusion of Punisher Limited #1.

 

Yeah, I don't know how I could have missed this being the biggest fan of this mini-series. Without this, the Punisher would never have risen to the popularity he shared with Wolverine in the 80's/90's.

 

Also, if we de-emphasize scarcity of the books, then Albedo #2 may come off the list. The main reason that one is on everyone's radar is because there are only 2000 copies. It does represent the anthropomorphic craze at that time, but so do the Turtles. If we want to represent other 80's trends, how about the Japenese trend represented by Macross #1, Lone Wolf & Cub and Akira? As important in my mind as the British invasion represented by Warrior/Miracleman. From that perspective, are both really needed? Again Miracleman #15's importance is also driven by scarcity.

Edited November 20, 2016 by comiconxion

[comiconxion]

 

[*]I've never been a fan of DCP 47 being a key because it's the first app of He-Man. However, I didn't realize (until just now) that it came out within a month of GI Joe #1, so you could have the two on there for the same significance of introducing the toy tie-in era (and, later, Transformers, which is a bit late to the party to be on the list, if you ask me). GI Joe was the first issue of a (generally complex, well-written) 12-year series, though. Did that He-Man appearance start anything? I don't even know. I'd be fine with dropping it.

 

The difference I see with Transformers and G.I. Joe vs.DCP #47 is that the Marvel Comics books shaped the origin of the characters and the stories behind the toys. While DCP #47 made no impact on the cartoon or the future history of the character at all. It was simply his first appearance in comics after the cartoon had been out. And, the price has been driven up because the print tun on that particular book was low (because no one really cared)

 

The story from Transformers #1 & 2 became the basis for the first Transformers movie. G.I. Joe #1 was launched at the same time as the toy line and the Joe comics influenced the plot of the cartoons.

 

Also, remember at one point, G.I. Joe was one of the top selling books - up there with X-Men. I can't say the Masters of the Universe Comics ever came close.

[Martin Sinescu]

Have we overlooked Daredevil #227? Wow.

 

I would keep Albedo #2 as it's not just the scarcity, but 1st Usagi and the aforementioned influence on the animal character craze.

 

In my mind Miracleman #15 is more about the content of the book than its scarcity. It's really the apex of that series and pushed the boundaries in terms of both story and art. If you're on the fence about having both MM and Warrior, Warrior #1 was also the first V for Vendetta, a book that otherwise won't be on this list, as well as being packed with a who's who of British talent that would be hugely influential on the mainstream American market. I think having both on the list is plenty justifiable.

 

I was never into either as a comic, but I think the inclusion of Akira or Macross is important for the sake of recognizing the Japanese influence at that time. I'd be interested to hear more thoughts on that. I was into the Robotech cartoon (via my best friend), but can't really offer any input on either as a comic and their impact on the Copper Era.

 

I've tried to cobble together a list that takes some off the board and adds a few but I'm at 55 right now, so it isn't quite balanced out yet...

 

------

 

Two more things I'll add, the inclusion of both Legends #3 and Suicide Squad #1 seems unnecessary. I'd bump SS #1 off the list.

 

I'd consider adding Silver Surfer #34 to the list. Rebirth of Thanos and beginning of Starlin era for SS. Marvel really hyped this at the time and we're undoubtedly still feeling the effects.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Martin Sinescu

[rjrjr]

I think Destroyer Duck #1 should be on a list like this.  First appearance of Groo.

[rjrjr]

Star Wars #68 or 81 garner more attention and sales than Star Wars #107.

[valiantman]

Cry for Dawn #1 should be on the list and maybe #4 (1st and 2nd print). Darkhorse Presents #24 is another good book.

I believe you mean Cry for Dawn #5 (1st and 2nd print).

 

#4 isn't a high priority book.

[jimjum12]

So apologies off the top for putting this in a new thread... this is a continuation of a discussion from last year, but for the life of me, I can't find that thread.

 

Some of you may recall that I was looking to "crowdsource" a list of the Top Copper Age keys for the Overstreet Price Guide... Due to a technology glitch, this didn't appear in Overstreet #45 in the spring, but it was included in the 2015 Overstreet Yearbook, which went on sale in comic shops last week. Here's the material as it appeared there...

________________________

 

In past market reports, I have provided a list of what I saw as the top 40 key books for collectors of the Copper Age. However, I’ve always been a fan of “crowd sourcing” – the idea that online technologies allow us to bring large groups together to work on common issues. So this year, I went to the CGC Boards, where one of the most active communities of Copper Age collectors gathers, and asked for their input. Now, anytime you ask 10 collectors for their opinion, you’ll get 11 responses, so the final list is a result of my “editorial control” – but I think it represents a pretty good overview of what the Top 50 Copper Age keys are. To get this list, the discussion limited itself to the 1982-1992 timeframe:

 

• Albedo #2

• Amazing Spider-Man #238, #252, #298, #300, #361

• Archie’s Girls Betty and Veronica #320

• Batman #357, #404, #428

• Batman: The Dark Knight Returns #1

• Batman: The Killing Joke

• Bone #1

• Caliber Presents #1

• Comico Primer #2

• Crisis in Infinite Earths #1

• The Crow #1

• Daredevil #181

• DC Comics Presents #47

• Evil Ernie #1

• G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero #1

• Harbinger #1

• Incredible Hulk #271, #340

• Iron Man #282

• Marvel Graphic Novel #4

• Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars #8

• Miracleman #15

• New Mutants #87, #98

• Sandman #1, #8

• Spectacular Spider-Man #64

• Superman #75

• Swamp Thing #21, #37

• Starslayer #2

• Tales of the New Teen Titans #44

• Thor #337

• Transformers #1

• Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1

• Uncanny X-men #221, #248, #266

• Vampirella #113

• Warrior (UK Magazine) #1

• Watchmen #1

• Wolverine (limited series) #1

• X-Factor #6, #24

Virtually all of these books took substantial price jumps over the past year. If this list is of interest – and it should be, given that so much of the current market is driven by the search for “keys” – I’ll try to do this crowd sourcing bit again in future reports. Special thanks this year to all the CGC boardies who took part in the discussion, and a special shout out to Ryan Leskiw (aka “kimik”) who not only helped out with the discussion, but shared some great sales data as well.

___________________________

 

Thanks to all who helped with this - but it will soon be time to update information for the 2016 Overstreet Guide (and it will be in the main Guide this time!).

 

So, what changes would you make from last year's list? What books have become more important over the past year? What books would you bump to make way for them?

 

As always, I'll try my best to build the final list around your thoughts and ideas!

 

 

...GOD BLESS.....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Semicentennial]

Cry for Dawn #1 should be on the list and maybe #4 (1st and 2nd print). Darkhorse Presents #24 is another good book.

I believe you mean Cry for Dawn #5 (1st and 2nd print).

 

#4 isn't a high priority book.

 

Oops, you're right. It is #5. #4 has a cool cover but #5 has a cover that sells.

[Gatsby77]

I'd knock out books that are primarily valuable because they are specialty books or variants.

 

That would include books like:

 

Goobledygook 1-2 (since most Turtles fans I know would much rather have a TMNT # 1)

Turtlemania Gold

Albedo 0 variants

 

Also - in a print run quirk, I think The Crow # 1 is more significant than Caliber Presents 1 (since it's more common & generally less expensive), even if the latter is the first appearance.

 

But I'd keep The Tick Special Edition 1 on there. Well...not sure if it warrants true inclusion *yet* but probably will by next year, once the revived show has hit.

 

(I'm a huge Tick fan, but don't consider this necessarily a Top 50 Copper book.)

 

Likewise, I'd favor Crisis 7-8 over Crisis # 1, just as I'd favor Secret Wars 8 over Secret Wars 1.

 

And ditto on favoring the two Bobba Fett keys over Star Wars # 107. #107 was a minor key for awhile because it was early Portacio, but print run-wise it's no harder to find than Star Wars 101-106.

[Martin Sinescu]

Here's an updated list based on input here and, of course, I took some liberties myself to promote/demote:

 

 

Albedo #2 (1st Usagi Yojimbo, very low print run)

Amazing Spider-Man #238 (1st Hobgoblin)

Amazing Spider-Man #300 (1st full Venom, McFarlane art, Anniversary issue)

Amazing Spider-Man #361 (1st Carnage)

Archie’s Girls Betty and Veronica #320 (1st Cheryl Blossom)

Batman #357 (1st Jason Todd in cameo, 1st Killer Croc)

Batman #404 (Year One, creation of Post-Crisis origin)

Batman #428 (Death of Jason Todd)

Batman: The Dark Knight Returns #1 (Miller art/story, Batman in alternate future)

Batman: The Killing Joke (Joker origin, cripples Batgirl)

Bone #1 (1st character appearance)

Captain America #332 (Steve Rogers quits)

Crisis on Infinite Earths #7 (Death of Supergirl)

Crisis on Infinite Earths #8 (Death of Flash)

Comico Primer #2 (1st Grendel)

The Crow #1 (1st solo book)

Daredevil #181 (Death of Elektra)

Daredevil #227 (Born Again pt. 1, Miller returns to book)

Evil Ernie #1 (1st Evil Ernie and Lady Death)

G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero #1 (1st appearance of team)

G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero #21 (1st Storm Shadow, Silent Issue)

Harbinger #1 (1st Renegades, 1st original Valiant title)

Incredible Hulk #271 (1st Rocket Raccoon)

Incredible Hulk #340 (Hulk vs. Wolverine, McFarlane art)

Iron Man #282 (1st War Machine)

Legends #3 (1st Suicide Squad)

Marvel Graphic Novel #4 (1st New Mutants)

Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars #8 (1st black costume)

Miracleman #15 (Death of Kid Miracleman)

New Mutants #87 (1st Cable)

New Mutants #98 (1st Deadpool)

New Teen Titans (Tales of the..) #44 (1st Nightwing, origin of Deathstroke)

Punisher (Limited Series) #1 (1st solo title)

Sandman #1 (1st Morpheus)

Sandman #8 (1st Death)

Silver Surfer #34 (Revival of Thanos, Starlin joins as writer)

Superman #75 (Death of Superman)

Swamp Thing #21 (Revised origin)

Swamp Thing #37 (1st John Constantine)

Tick Special Edition #1 (1st character appearance)

Thor #337 (1st Beta Ray Bill, Simonson run begins)

Transformers #1 (1st appearance of characters in comics)

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1 (1st character appearances)

Uncanny X-men #266 (1st Gambit)

Warrior (UK Magazine) #1 (1st Marvelman, 1st V for Vendetta)

Watchmen #1 (1st issue, Moore story)

Wolverine (limited series) #1 (1st solo title)

X-Factor #6 (1st Apocalypse)

 

I feel this is a bit more representative of books/stories/characters/creators that impacted the era rather than being steered in the direction of current flavor of the month characters who are out of vogue as soon as their movie tanks.

 

This accounts for 48 books, so there's two slots left.

 

Here's what I took out:

Amazing Spider-Man #252 (1st Black Costume)

Amazing Spider-Man #298 (1st McFarlane art on title)

Amazing Spider-Man #301

Caliber Presents #1 (1st appearance of The Crow)

Crisis on Infinite Earths # 1

DC Comics Presents #47 (1st Masters of the Universe in comics)

Starslayer #2 (1st Rocketeer)

Suicide Squad #1

Uncanny X-men #221 (1st Mr. Sinister)

X-Factor #24 (1st Archangel)

 

Here's what could stake a claim to the last two spots:

Akira/Macross

Amazing Spider-Man #294 -or- Web of Spider-Man #31 (Death of Kraven vs. pt 1 of Kraven’s Last Hunt)

Destroyer Duck #1 (1st Groo)

Gobbledygook #1 (1st Fugitoid, TMNT ad, Mirage Studio’s 1st publication)

Omega Men #3 (1st Lobo)

Spawn #1 (1st Spawn, helped launch creator-owned Image)

Teen Titans #39 (Grayson quits as Robin, Kid Flash quits team)

 

And I'd still like to voice my own personal crusade to replace Batman #428 with Batman #427, which was the issue with the cliffhanger ending and the phone number at the end, allowing the readers to choose Jason Todd's fate. That's what made this arc unique more than Jason's death (spoiler alert).

 

Thoughts?

 

[JTLarsen]

Here's an updated list based on input here and, of course, I took some liberties myself to promote/demote:

 

 

Albedo #2 (1st Usagi Yojimbo, very low print run)

Amazing Spider-Man #238 (1st Hobgoblin)

Amazing Spider-Man #300 (1st full Venom, McFarlane art, Anniversary issue)

Amazing Spider-Man #361 (1st Carnage)

Archie’s Girls Betty and Veronica #320 (1st Cheryl Blossom)

Batman #357 (1st Jason Todd in cameo, 1st Killer Croc)

Batman #404 (Year One, creation of Post-Crisis origin)

Batman #428 (Death of Jason Todd)

Batman: The Dark Knight Returns #1 (Miller art/story, Batman in alternate future)

Batman: The Killing Joke (Joker origin, cripples Batgirl)

Bone #1 (1st character appearance)

Captain America #332 (Steve Rogers quits)

Crisis on Infinite Earths #7 (Death of Supergirl)

Crisis on Infinite Earths #8 (Death of Flash)

Comico Primer #2 (1st Grendel)

The Crow #1 (1st solo book)

Daredevil #181 (Death of Elektra)

Daredevil #227 (Born Again pt. 1, Miller returns to book)

Evil Ernie #1 (1st Evil Ernie and Lady Death)

G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero #1 (1st appearance of team)

G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero #21 (1st Storm Shadow, Silent Issue)

Harbinger #1 (1st Renegades, 1st original Valiant title)

Incredible Hulk #271 (1st Rocket Raccoon)

Incredible Hulk #340 (Hulk vs. Wolverine, McFarlane art)

Iron Man #282 (1st War Machine)

Legends #3 (1st Suicide Squad)

Marvel Graphic Novel #4 (1st New Mutants)

Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars #8 (1st black costume)

Miracleman #15 (Death of Kid Miracleman)

New Mutants #87 (1st Cable)

New Mutants #98 (1st Deadpool)

New Teen Titans (Tales of the..) #44 (1st Nightwing, origin of Deathstroke)

Punisher (Limited Series) #1 (1st solo title)

Sandman #1 (1st Morpheus)

Sandman #8 (1st Death)

Silver Surfer #34 (Revival of Thanos, Starlin joins as writer)

Superman #75 (Death of Superman)

Swamp Thing #21 (Revised origin)

Swamp Thing #37 (1st John Constantine)

Tick Special Edition #1 (1st character appearance)

Thor #337 (1st Beta Ray Bill, Simonson run begins)

Transformers #1 (1st appearance of characters in comics)

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1 (1st character appearances)

Uncanny X-men #266 (1st Gambit)

Warrior (UK Magazine) #1 (1st Marvelman, 1st V for Vendetta)

Watchmen #1 (1st issue, Moore story)

Wolverine (limited series) #1 (1st solo title)

X-Factor #6 (1st Apocalypse)

 

I feel this is a bit more representative of books/stories/characters/creators that impacted the era rather than being steered in the direction of current flavor of the month characters who are out of vogue as soon as their movie tanks.

 

This accounts for 48 books, so there's two slots left.

 

Here's what I took out:

Amazing Spider-Man #252 (1st Black Costume)

Amazing Spider-Man #298 (1st McFarlane art on title)

Amazing Spider-Man #301

Caliber Presents #1 (1st appearance of The Crow)

Crisis on Infinite Earths # 1

DC Comics Presents #47 (1st Masters of the Universe in comics)

Starslayer #2 (1st Rocketeer)

Suicide Squad #1

Uncanny X-men #221 (1st Mr. Sinister)

X-Factor #24 (1st Archangel)

 

Here's what could stake a claim to the last two spots:

Akira/Macross

Amazing Spider-Man #294 -or- Web of Spider-Man #31 (Death of Kraven vs. pt 1 of Kraven’s Last Hunt)

Destroyer Duck #1 (1st Groo)

Gobbledygook #1 (1st Fugitoid, TMNT ad, Mirage Studio’s 1st publication)

Omega Men #3 (1st Lobo)

Spawn #1 (1st Spawn, helped launch creator-owned Image)

Teen Titans #39 (Grayson quits as Robin, Kid Flash quits team)

 

And I'd still like to voice my own personal crusade to replace Batman #428 with Batman #427, which was the issue with the cliffhanger ending and the phone number at the end, allowing the readers to choose Jason Todd's fate. That's what made this arc unique more than Jason's death (spoiler alert).

 

Thoughts?

 

Omega Men 3 and Spawn 1 seem like the clear leaders here. Maybe not as expensive as some others, but certainly most impactful.

[oakman29]

Caliber presents should stay. I mean the 1st app. of the Crow, forget about it!

[jimjum12]

Personally, I don't consider any Image product to be Copper Age...... to me, those are the obvious beginnings of the Age that follows Copper, whether it is called Modern or whatever. I've noticed a lot of discontent over applying the term "Modern" to books that are now over 20 years old, but I see it kind of like it is in Fine Art, where Modern Art is the beginning of a new approach to art..... not just a strict interpretation of the term "modern" itself. I also feel that the D.C. Vertigo line was a huge influence in the beginning of the Modern Age.....even though some of the original examples, like Sandman, are clearly a part of the Copper Age. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited November 23, 2016 by jimjum12

[Topnotchman]

I would add

Silver Surfer 44, first Infinity Gauntlet

Cry For Dawn 1, first Dawn

Malibu Sun 13, Spawn

Megaton Explosion 1, first Youngblood

New Mutants annual 2, first U.S. Psylocke

Omega Men 3, first lobo

Booster Gold 1, 1st Booster Gold

Amazing Spider-Man 252 first black costume

Amazing Spider-Man 298 first Mcfarlane

Caliber Presents 1, first Crow

 

Remove

Swamp Thing 21

Superman 75

Batman 404

Crisis 7

Crisis 8

Daredevil 181

Daredevil 227

Captain America 332

 

Collector interest is following first appearances and #1's. The books I recommend removing from the list do have impactful stories, but collector value is suffering due to over saturation in the marketplace. Independants can and do have significantly higher collector value due to scarcity compared to big two.

[fastballspecial]

I like adding Omega Men 3. I like Surfer 44 as well.

 

I would remove any Crow related book, but that's just me I have never seen the significance.

 

Edited November 23, 2016 by Fastballspecial

[Brock]

Thanks to everyone who's added input and ideas to the discussion... I`m finalizing the list over the course of the weekend, as my Market Report has to be in to the folks at Overstreet by Monday.

 

As always, I'm blown away by the knowledge of the folks on these boards, and will acknowledge the group's efforts in the report.

 

To pare this down to a final list of 50, I obviously have to exercise a lit bit of "editorial oversight" so apologies in advance if it doesn't match your personal choices 100%, but the list will definitely change based on your input!

 

Until next year...

Edited December 10, 2016 by Brock

[JTLarsen]

Thanks to everyone who's added input and ideas to the discussion... I`m finalizing the list over the course of the weekend, as my Market Report has to be in to the folks at Overstreet by Monday.

 

As always, I'm blown away by the knowledge of the folks on these boards, and will acknowledge the group's efforts in the report.

 

To pare this down to a final list of 50, I obviously have to exercise a lit bit of "editorial oversight" so apologies in advance if it doesn't match your personal choices 100%, but the list will definitely change based on your input!

 

Until next year...

 

I love the Market Reports, mostly. But the insanity of publishing next summer market reports written in December about market activity in the months prior to December... SMH...

[Brock]

Thanks to everyone who's added input and ideas to the discussion... I`m finalizing the list over the course of the weekend, as my Market Report has to be in to the folks at Overstreet by Monday.

 

As always, I'm blown away by the knowledge of the folks on these boards, and will acknowledge the group's efforts in the report.

 

To pare this down to a final list of 50, I obviously have to exercise a lit bit of "editorial oversight" so apologies in advance if it doesn't match your personal choices 100%, but the list will definitely change based on your input!

 

Until next year...

 

I love the Market Reports, mostly. But the insanity of publishing next summer market reports written in December about market activity in the months prior to December... SMH...

 

+1

 

It's a challenge, for sure. I always try to approach this from "this was the market in 2016" perspective, and focus on trends and patterns rather than individual prices.

 

Other suggestions and proposed approaches are always welcome!