February 2016 Heritage Auction

[Nexus]

It was also informative to hear from Doc Daves post that there is growing interest in Asia and Dubai in American comic book and strip art. Seems to me the collector base is still expanding.

 

Talk of foreign interest has always struck me as overblown, BUT...since I've become a rep, I have sold art to fans from all corners of the globe. With regards to Asia and the Middle East: China, Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, Thailand, India, UAE, Dubai, Saudi Arabia. Europe and South America may be no big surprise but Russia? Africa? Surprised the hell out of me!

 

Now, I sell relatively affordable art, and these buyers are likely just casual fans. So I don't know of any who are buying Frazettas or Kirbys or what have you, but I do know firsthand that there are fans of American comics all over the world who have become aware of original art. Even of the new non-superhero variety.

 

Also, I don't know what your experience has been, but the big foreign buyers from Asia and the Middle East that I am aware of generally have some connection to North America, the U.K., or other English-speaking countries. Like there is a Middle Eastern whale in the comic book market - but, he went to university in the U.S. where I'm guessing he picked up his love of American comics. Or even guys like tth2 who grew up in America but now live in Hong Kong - lots of expats and/or those who studied in the U.S or U.K. and went back. Of course, there are many who also grew up in Singapore (there's at least a couple/few notable OA players who live there) and HK under strong English influence and traditions. I suspect these are the Asians who are participating the most in comics and comic art - my guess is that there aren't many, say, mainland Chinese buying this stuff up who grew up with limited Anglo or American influence.

 

I suspect the same; it would seem obvious (although I'll leave room for the possible exception). But only as it pertains to big buyers. I was talking about those overseas who are buying new/cheap art. While I don't know the backgrounds of all those who have bought new art from me, my strong bet is that they're on the younger side (primarily in their 20's, maybe some in their 30's) who are very active in social media. They are not buying out of nostalgia, they're simply fans of new comics/creators and OA appeared on their radar. A totally different breed from the typical collector with whom you and I usually interact. I don't expect them to become dedicated collectors who will graduate to Frazettas and Kirbys (they may never care, let alone have the financial ability)...indeed, while some have come back, it's been a one-shot deal for most. I've simply been pleasantly surprised that not only are there comics fans in so many different countries, but that there is a subset who would actually buy OA (even to a limited extent).

 

Having said that, I've already gotten feedback for the podcast from outside the US from people I've never talked to before. They enjoyed it and have questions. My YouTube channel gets hits from all over the world (YouTube breaks down views by country). So who knows?

[delekkerste]

I was talking about those overseas who are buying new/cheap art. While I don't know the backgrounds of all those who have bought new art from me, my strong bet is that they're on the younger side (primarily in their 20's, maybe some in their 30's) who are very active in social media. They are not buying out of nostalgia, they're simply fans of new comics/creators and OA appeared on their radar. A totally different breed from the typical collector with whom you and I usually interact. I don't expect them to become dedicated collectors who will graduate to Frazettas and Kirbys (they may never care, let alone have the financial ability).

 

Sure, that makes perfect sense. More young people overseas are learning English and becoming immersed in Western culture, while content is more readily available through the Internet and expanded foreign publishing operations, plus it's easier to participate as part of a community with the Internet, blogs, social media, e-mail, etc. It's not surprising that there are more young people overseas who are discovering the newer material. And also that, generally speaking, their financial means are limited.

 

Unfortunately, it was a very different story for most of the previous generation overseas. Aside from those who grew up in areas with a strong Anglo or American influence, spent time in such areas as students/expats and/or grew up in areas with strong comics/BD tradition where foreign translations were par for the course, you're not going to find many people who didn't grow up with the older material in any form suddenly deciding they need to have it. Which doesn't bode well for guys like Liu Yiqian or Oleg the Smartest Oligarch coming in to provide the next leg up in vintage OA. Such hopes I think have been and will continue to be...overblown.

[zhamlau]

I don't think the effects of the movies have had on the global culture can be overstated. For the better part of 15 years now we have seen how Marvel movies have dominated the America movie (and by extension, the world) market.15 years of inspiring imaginations and developing love for the characters among a VAST audience. The chance to own prime pieces of art from those same stories/characters I think has grown both domestically and internationally. I would imagine there are people who never read much of the comics, coming into the market to have just a piece of the characters and their history. Owning a piece of art is so personal, so connected. Its like owning a film used star wars prop (only without the problem of provenance).

 

Anyway, that aspect seems to be overlooked to me. Its why i'm not concerned about the high end Silver/Bronze/Copper art prices for the next 20+ years.

 

I just got back from Disney world, the entire place is coated in Marvel heroes. Down the street at Universal, its coated in DC. Adults and children alike who maybe have read a handful of comics in their lives, are walking the streets there with Avengers hats on, or Batman tee's. Its become one of the most dominant forces in our pop culture both domestically and internationally. People who couldn't tell you Kirby from Kane can name you character names, bios, powers, and histories.

 

That cant exist in a vacuum. That has to have an effect. I think its maybe the driving force in the prices we are seeing today, especially in the bronze market.

[wktam]

While I agree that the Marvel movies have introduced a new audience to comics I do not think that the impact of the movies is significant in art collecting. The average movie goer who has not read the original comics might go so far as to buy a compilation or two but I don't see that same movie goer dropping a few hundred dollars on a 9.8 copy of a bronze age comic let alone a thousand or more on bronze age art

[Peter G]

I don't think the effects of the movies have had on the global culture can be overstated. For the better part of 15 years now we have seen how Marvel movies have dominated the America movie (and by extension, the world) market.15 years of inspiring imaginations and developing love for the characters among a VAST audience. The chance to own prime pieces of art from those same stories/characters I think has grown both domestically and internationally. I would imagine there are people who never read much of the comics, coming into the market to have just a piece of the characters and their history. Owning a piece of art is so personal, so connected. Its like owning a film used star wars prop (only without the problem of provenance).

 

Anyway, that aspect seems to be overlooked to me. Its why i'm not concerned about the high end Silver/Bronze/Copper art prices for the next 20+ years.

 

I just got back from Disney world, the entire place is coated in Marvel heroes. Down the street at Universal, its coated in DC. Adults and children alike who maybe have read a handful of comics in their lives, are walking the streets there with Avengers hats on, or Batman tee's. Its become one of the most dominant forces in our pop culture both domestically and internationally. People who couldn't tell you Kirby from Kane can name you character names, bios, powers, and histories.

 

That cant exist in a vacuum. That has to have an effect. I think its maybe the driving force in the prices we are seeing today, especially in the bronze market.

 

Totally agree. Well said.

[bluechip]

While I agree that the Marvel movies have introduced a new audience to comics I do not think that the impact of the movies is significant in art collecting. The average movie goer who has not read the original comics might go so far as to buy a compilation or two but I don't see that same movie goer dropping a few hundred dollars on a 9.8 copy of a bronze age comic let alone a thousand or more on bronze age art

 

At the very least the worldwide awareness increased prices in comics and the prices that comics get has and will influence the prices that art gets. Art has always been about the fact it's the original images and text from the comics, and the values were always compared to the value of comics (if the comic is worth that much when there's so many in existence, how much should the original art be when it's one of a kind, etc.)

 

Beyond that, the increased fanbase in foreign countries would naturally include some people who are inclined to buy something they consider impressive based on their favorites, and that would naturally include some people who think that art would be a way to go. It's not a question of all or none, but somewhere in between (though I would agree that the number for now remains a lot closer to none than to everyone)

[suspense39]

While I agree that the Marvel movies have introduced a new audience to comics I do not think that the impact of the movies is significant in art collecting. The average movie goer who has not read the original comics might go so far as to buy a compilation or two but I don't see that same movie goer dropping a few hundred dollars on a 9.8 copy of a bronze age comic let alone a thousand or more on bronze age art

 

It's the same with art in general, even though museum going becomes more and more popular and artists like Koons, Warhol, and Lichtenstein become mainstream names, people opt for the poster, they would hardly consider dropping a grand or two on even a print.

[pinupcartoonguy]

My three kids love the Marvel movies. That said, they don't give a rat's about the comic they originated from let along the art. They'd rather mess with their X-Box or DS.

[vodou]

...people opt for the poster, they would hardly consider dropping a grand or two on even a print.

Or $650 for the catalog raisonne!

[suspense39]

...people opt for the poster, they would hardly consider dropping a grand or two on even a print.

Or $650 for the catalog raisonne!

 

Yep, I never understood that one!

[Dick O.]

Also, I don't know what your experience has been, but the big foreign buyers from Asia and the Middle East that I am aware of generally have some connection to North America, the U.K., or other English-speaking countries. Like there is a Middle Eastern whale in the comic book market - but, he went to university in the U.S. where I'm guessing he picked up his love of American comics. Or even guys like tth2 who grew up in America but now live in Hong Kong - lots of expats and/or those who studied in the U.S or U.K. and went back. Of course, there are many who also grew up in Singapore (there's at least a couple/few notable OA players who live there) and HK under strong English influence and traditions. I suspect these are the Asians who are participating the most in comics and comic art - my guess is that there aren't many, say, mainland Chinese buying this stuff up who grew up with limited Anglo or American influence.

 

Astute, Gene

[AvengersFan]

My three kids love the Marvel movies. That said, they don't give a rat's about the comic they originated from let along the art. They'd rather mess with their X-Box or DS.

 

I will second this as absolutely the case in my family as well. My kids (13 and 15 now) have grown up seeing my comic art on the walls and even come to Wizard World with me. They love the movies, we watch "Agents of Shield " as a family every week, they see me reading TPBs ...but they have absolutely ZERO interest in reading a comic book. They know comic art is Dad's hobby and politely listen to me jabber about it but would much rather spend their time and money on youtube and video games. Lucky for me my son did prove susceptible to Magic the Gathering and we have been playing since he was 6 and he isn't to embarrassed to go to Friday Night Magic with me when sports or friends don't coincide. I will take what I can get !

Jay

[batman_fan]

My three kids love the Marvel movies. That said, they don't give a rat's about the comic they originated from let along the art. They'd rather mess with their X-Box or DS.

 

I will second this as absolutely the case in my family as well. My kids (13 and 15 now) have grown up seeing my comic art on the walls and even come to Wizard World with me. They love the movies, we watch "Agents of Shield " as a family every week, they see me reading TPBs ...but they have absolutely ZERO interest in reading a comic book. They know comic art is Dad's hobby and politely listen to me jabber about it but would much rather spend their time and money on youtube and video games. Lucky for me my son did prove susceptible to Magic the Gathering and we have been playing since he was 6 and he isn't to embarrassed to go to Friday Night Magic with me when sports or friends don't coincide. I will take what I can get !

Jay

 

Count me in this group as well. My son use to go with me every year to Wondercon and other various Bay area comic cons (since before he was 1). He now goes to the Denver cons. While I look at comics and OA, he is looking for Star Wars light sabers, Harry Potter wands, and cool knives and guns (he never gets either of the last two items). He looks at Star Wars comics but never buys any. Loves the Marvel and DC movies but absolutely zero interest in comics.

[delekkerste]

While I agree that the Marvel movies have introduced a new audience to comics I do not think that the impact of the movies is significant in art collecting. The average movie goer who has not read the original comics might go so far as to buy a compilation or two but I don't see that same movie goer dropping a few hundred dollars on a 9.8 copy of a bronze age comic let alone a thousand or more on bronze age art

 

Yep - I'd even go so far as to say that the Marvel movies have introduced a new audience to the stories and characters, but, as for the vintage comic book hobby, almost all of the impact has been to re-energize existing collectors and bring lapsed collectors back into the fold. Maybe it's brought in some sales to compilations and padded current circulations a bit, but no random off the street goes to see these movies and afterward says, "Wow, now I have to find the highest grade copy of Avengers #4 that I can possibly find!" let alone "I must buy the best Kirby Avengers page I can afford!"

 

I was collecting comics for 19 years before I even realized that original comic art was a thing. That randoms will go to the movies and even conceive of buying comic art is implausible to say the least. Almost every comic art collector started off through the gateway drug of reading and collecting comics. I really don't think the movies are having the same gateway effect, because you don't collect movies in the same way that one collects comics and then moves to collecting OA. Empirically, I think it's more accurate to say that the movies are now supplanting comics as the preferred method of experiencing these stories, and that, unless you are already a collector or someone immersed in comics culture (like all of us here), there is little to no inclination to seek out expensive graded collectible comics and OA just because you like the movie.

[zhamlau]

I think the best way to look at the effect is this. After 15 years of non-stop global cultural domination, it's inspired people of means to look at comic books and comic book art as being relevant artifacts worthy of collecting and displaying.I think it has brought in many people to our fold, people without the background many of us long time collectors have.

 

We are dealing with the "trophy hunters" basically. Not everyone who purchases a Degas or Jackson Pollock has a degree in art history, not everyone who buys a 68 GT350 Fastback has a background in Transmission repair or a Leno-eque garage full of Phantoms.

 

There are people in my view who have come into this market because they see these pieces as culturally relevant icons that can be had for very cheap prices when compared to other pieces of art or pop culture. Pieces that can be displayed and are instantly recognizable and appreciated, that stand a very good chance of going up substantially in price in the very near future.

 

They might have read comics as a kid and fallen out of the scene for decades, they might only have developed a love for it due to the fact that the last 15 years of cinema and TV has been dominated by the characters. Their origins matter little to me, the fact they are here now and why they are here is what fascinates me.

 

As for people mentioning their kids don't love this stuff, yeah I get tha, but they are kids who are inundated with it. Kids these days rarely follow in the paths of their parents interests and hobbies. Besides, children aren't the ones spending 35k on Byrne panel pages, they aren't the ones who are getting pulled into this 70s and 80s pop-art revival we are living in now.

 

This money is coming from somewhere. Ive been buying art since 1986, and Ive never seen anything like this...this isn't build up or slow appreciation, this is frame-shift. I think the complete and total cultural domination of these characters on Billions of people for 15+ years has had the effect to bring a lot more of them into the fold then ever before, and many of them want to start at the top. That's what I think anyway.

[Peter G]

I think the best way to look at the effect is this. After 15 years of non-stop global cultural domination, it's inspired people of means to look at comic books and comic book art as being relevant artifacts worthy of collecting and displaying.I think it has brought in many people to our fold, people without the background many of us long time collectors have.

 

We are dealing with the "trophy hunters" basically. Not everyone who purchases a Degas or Jackson Pollock has a degree in art history, not everyone who buys a 68 GT350 Fastback has a background in Transmission repair or a Leno-eque garage full of Phantoms.

 

There are people in my view who have come into this market because they see these pieces as culturally relevant icons that can be had for very cheap prices when compared to other pieces of art or pop culture. Pieces that can be displayed and are instantly recognizable and appreciated, that stand a very good chance of going up substantially in price in the very near future.

 

They might have read comics as a kid and fallen out of the scene for decades, they might only have developed a love for it due to the fact that the last 15 years of cinema and TV has been dominated by the characters. Their origins matter little to me, the fact they are here now and why they are here is what fascinates me.

 

As for people mentioning their kids don't love this stuff, yeah I get tha, but they are kids who are inundated with it. Kids these days rarely follow in the paths of their parents interests and hobbies. Besides, children aren't the ones spending 35k on Byrne panel pages, they aren't the ones who are getting pulled into this 70s and 80s pop-art revival we are living in now.

 

This money is coming from somewhere. Ive been buying art since 1986, and Ive never seen anything like this...this isn't build up or slow appreciation, this is frame-shift. I think the complete and total cultural domination of these characters on Billions of people for 15+ years has had the effect to bring a lot more of them into the fold then ever before, and many of them want to start at the top. That's what I think anyway.

 

[Silver Surfer]

 

I was collecting comics for 19 years before I even realized that original comic art was a thing.

 

This sums up a lot of OA collectors, myself included.

[vodou]

 

I was collecting comics for 19 years before I even realized that original comic art was a thing.

 

This sums up a lot of OA collectors, myself included.

Nineteen years is a big "wow" to me. Never ventured into artist's alley at a convention. Never? I knew about art ten years in, and mostly that "late" because I barely had admission in my pocket for most cons in the early years (I was a kid!), so that plus a coupla additional singles (literally) got me right to the 2/$1 TOS and TTA boxes (yes, it was awesome) and then I was done. But as soon as I had some real spending money ($50/$100) I was onto art, at least a little bit or window-shopping if not buying.

[Silver Surfer]

 

I was collecting comics for 19 years before I even realized that original comic art was a thing.

 

This sums up a lot of OA collectors, myself included.

Nineteen years is a big "wow" to me. Never ventured into artist's alley at a convention. Never? I knew about art ten years in, and mostly that "late" because I barely had admission in my pocket for most cons in the early years (I was a kid!), so that plus a coupla additional singles (literally) got me right to the 2/$1 TOS and TTA boxes (yes, it was awesome) and then I was done. But as soon as I had some real spending money ($50/$100) I was onto art, at least a little bit or window-shopping if not buying.

 

I've haven't been to a con yet but was on these boards for almost 10 years before I started to take notice of OA stuff [couldn't be bothered until recently]. I think its a natural step for a collector. I grew up as a kid collecting BA stuff, drooled over early SA material and was curious about characters origins. Had no real idea of what GA material was out there as SA/BA book were all the rage when I was younger but seeing images of Marvel Comics #1 always made me wonder what it would be like to own those old classics. Started to move towards more GA books as I grew older and my earning power increased and then eventually started to spend more time in this forum as I wanted to learn more about them.

[batman_fan]

I still remember agonizing over my first "expensive" piece of OA. It was a Batman Animated splash in early 2000. Price was a staggering $279. I went for it and it was the piece that actually hooked me on focusing on splashes. My next crossing came when I bought the jungle action 23 cover for a crazy amount of money. I spent months thinking about it before pulling the trigger. Super happy I did. This year I crossed another spending milestone when I bought my Kirby pre code splash. I really love it but not sure I feel comfortable spending that much on OA. Sure I can afford to pump more into buying but it is hard to reconcile spending so much. Do other people have the same angst?