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New podcast/video from Felix Comic Art (UPDATED 1/3/17!)
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1,647 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

But, go back and read that first year of Batman stories (which were really pulpy), and you see he was pretty much a noir badass.

Well, there's that one year of batman.

Then there's the intervening 40+ years where the character became the ubiquitous licensing icon that he became, to then be deconstructed the way he was deconstructed in DKR. 

 

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Just now, comix4fun said:

Well, there's that one year of batman.

Then there's the intervening 40+ years where the character became the ubiquitous licensing icon that he became, to then be deconstructed the way he was deconstructed in DKR. 

 

Well, sure. The very fact that he had 40 years plus of history to deconstruct is what made TDKR possible. Especially his relationship to Superman. Absent that long period, the impact of the story would have been very different. And, I wonder if it would have had nearly the impact if Superman were not involved at all, and it was just Batman vs Two-Face -- or Even the Joker. I don't think so.

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3 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

Well, there's that one year of batman.

Then there's the intervening 40+ years where the character became the ubiquitous licensing icon that he became, to then be deconstructed the way he was deconstructed in DKR. 

 

You also had Michael Uslan already planning a Dark Knight version of Batman in the late 70's when he was trying to get a new Batman film made.

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1 minute ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

You also had Michael Uslan already planning a Dark Knight version of Batman in the late 70's when he was trying to get a new Batman film made.

You also had "SuperFolks" released in the mid-late 70's which is the blueprint for the deconstructed superhero. 

If you haven't read it, it's a novel not a comic, give it a try. 

It's Watchmen before Watchmen was Watchmen. 

 

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7 hours ago, delekkerste said:

But, none of these was the game-changer that DKR or the two Miller runs on Daredevil were.  Every great Batman run that has followed DKR and every great Daredevil run post-1986 has stood on the shoulders of what Miller did in the 1980s.  They may be great stories and great art, even arguably equal to or better in the eyes of a modern audience, but, they are simply NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER going to achieve the level of importance, simply because they came (much) further in those characters' development/lifecycle, because they owe so much to the earlier work, because the audience today is both smaller and older, etc. etc. etc.  That's just the reality of it.  There will never be another DKR when it comes to Batman.  There will never be another Daredevil run as widely revered as Miller's (heck, we had two in the last 15 years that absolutely rivalled Miller's in quality, but, that's just not enough anymore).

What the 1980s offered, big picture, was the chance for a confluence of underground and independent acceptance to take root inside The Big Two. This was a first and Miller only got to play with DD because it was a junk title after a few years of general abuse and neglect. That he ran with it, to his credit. What he did there opened the door at DC as they were losing market-share big time to Marvel and Miller had already proved himself with DD! You don't get that dynamic happening too often and inside the wider comic world that was now (but only recently -at the time) widely accepting of underground/indie publishing and that thinking entering and being accepted at The Big Two. Think of all the crazy experimental books that were published by Marvel and DC in the 80s and 90s, along with everything that Epic and Vertigo did and eventually became. Plenty of it came and went real fast (just look at the mountain of Epic titles lol), but some really good stuff worked and stuck around. All this...you had to have the 60s and 70s come right before, first.

To borrow from Malcolm Gladwell...there will not be a second Bill Gates. Or Steve Jobs (Woz, et al). Right place, right time, right person to do it! Compared to those guys, Zuckerberg and the rest of the CIA-financed information scrapers...ugh. Not even close on the scale of revolutionary. Everything since Gates, Jobs, etc and what we're talking about above is very much post-Modern.

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6 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

hi Felix,

another very enjoyable podcast. the bonus podcast with Wendy was fun, and as a woman comic fan - it's great to hear that point of view.

in your interview with her you said you are proud of having a lot of female customers. wondering about that. are they one off buyers who want an example, or are they actual collectors who have or are building a collection?

There are one-off buyers, but there are a good number of dedicated, serious collectors, too. Not "serious" in the way we may perceive here, but serious in terms of the modern art hobby and being active participants. Or, to put it another way, they're buy-complete-issues serious.

I'd like to have a female collector on the show sometime, definitely. The two that come to mind, though, are outside the US, so it will take some planning. I imagine it will happen at some point.

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41 minutes ago, Nexus said:

There are one-off buyers, but there are a good number of dedicated, serious collectors, too. Not "serious" in the way we may perceive here, but serious in terms of the modern art hobby and being active participants. Or, to put it another way, they're buy-complete-issues serious.

I'd like to have a female collector on the show sometime, definitely. The two that come to mind, though, are outside the US, so it will take some planning. I imagine it will happen at some point.

I was interviewed for another podcast recently. 

It was a British-based podcast, so I don't think it violated the non-compete you made me sign. :wishluck:

 

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1 hour ago, comix4fun said:

I was interviewed for another podcast recently. 

It was a British-based podcast, so I don't think it violated the non-compete you made me sign. :wishluck:

 

probably non comic related right? do they even like comics in england?

:jokealert:

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9 hours ago, Pete Marino said:

Not that facebook is the be-all-end all for comic collectors, but from what I've seen / read in various facebook groups, most modern collectors are pretty "meh" about DRK.

now if those are the same people that in 15 years (assuming they're 18-22 now) are going to be diving into DKR pages at 35k+, that i can't answer.

The only way I can look at it is from my own chair.  I revere GSXM 1 and that whole run through Byrne, it created the X-Men team that I love.  It started 2 years before I was born.  And if it was in my budget, sure I'd love to have a page from it.  But it's further down the list than the stuff I grew up reading, or have read as an adult and enjoy.

I've found this to be true... a number of younger collectors I've spoken to just don't appear to have the context (of experiencing the 80s first hand, or even understanding the times historically) to see more than a laughably crazy satire in DKR. The world is just a far different place.

I remember reading about theaters full of laughing youngsters during a relatively recent re-release of The Exorcist and I guess I can see that as a similar disconnect between the intentions of an artist creating something in order to comment on a certain place and time, and the different relationship between audience members and movie makers of the past, versus that between audience members and movie makers of the modern era. Expectations have shifted a great deal in the past 30 - 40 years.


Article related. 

http://www.laweekly.com/film/stop-laughing-at-old-movies-you-anding-hipsters-5523746

 

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10 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

But Batman was "dark and gritty from day one." I mean, Batman originally killed his enemies. He became more kid friendly as time went on, eventually becoming silly in the 60's.  And, this wasn't even the first time Batman had been made more "dark and gritty." This happened previously in the late 1960's.

While DKR and Watchmen did change the approach to story telling unfortunately too many people thought it was just to make all characters dark, violent and moody. While those two stories are historic, they also ushered in a couple of decades of writers and fans wanting the characters to turn dark and violent. Two side of a coin in regards to how they effected in industry. For me it wast the writing for DKR that I really liked, the art I can do without. I am in the minority but it isn't some of his best work, so not all old collectors agree on the significance of the artwork.

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Another interesting podcast. While I like hearing Kyle's perspective on collecting from a younger person's point of view. The whole discussion will there be another comic like Dark Knight, just seems like another speculating conversation. People are looking for that next DKR. Where will lightning strike again? You can't really predict it. Besides it would have to be something that changes the direction of an industry, for the good or bad. 

Some people look at Walking Dead as a game changer. I disagree. Yes its popular and sells alot of comics and has become a hit TV show. I just don't think it really has legs to last 30 years like DKR or Watchmen. 

Back to the podcast, I did like seeing Felix on the other side of the mic and from a female perspective. Do you know if Wendi has any comic art or sketches?

 

Edited by Brian Peck
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Agreed on the timeliness of this podcast and the interview with Kyle. Having seen some of my favorite modern Batman OA end up in his hand in a very short amount of time has been both awesome and terrifying.  The idea of competing against him means I can step aside from any modern Batman OA acquisitions for a couple years...

What is notable, IMHO, is that his focus is very defined. He isn't looking to hoover up the Neal Adams market, nor is he looking to be a major player in the Kirby market, or even the DKR/KJ market. As we move to the next decade, who is going to pick up the inevitable retirement needs driving the release of collections that are going to hit the auction block? Its not Kyle. Its not me. Will today's Prince Valiant or Tarzan Sunday strips replicate the last ten years' results when more come to auction? Will those Kamandi covers keep going up? You are going to need a lot more Kyle's to soak up the supply with an ample amount of liquidity; I just don't see where that cash is coming from.

That being said (in direct contradiction of my earlier statement), I have two of Winsor McCay's Rarebit Fiend Sundays from 1908 on my wall at home, which I adore. But I view those as my sole play in the vintage market. 

Ultimately, this isn't an asset class and never should be treated as such. I fret for those who are depending on prices for vintage OA to remain at these levels. Great podcast! Thanks Felix.

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I think collectors who have nostalgia for certain eras (principally when they were in late adolescence and teenagers), think the best stuff from their era is special. Personally, I think early 80's First Comics art is criminally undervalued in the market, relative to its quality and importance. I mean, American Flagg, to me, was just as important as TDKR or Watchmen. But it wasn't published by the Big Two.

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1 minute ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I think collectors who have nostalgia for certain eras (principally when they were in late adolescence and teenagers), think the best stuff from their era is special. Personally, I think early 80's First Comics art is criminally undervalued in the market, relative to its quality and importance. I mean, American Flagg, to me, was just as important as TDKR or Watchmen. But it wasn't published by the Big Two.

Yes. And I'll expand that thought further to include almost all 80s and early 90s independent art except for the obvious: Cerebus, TMNT, Groo, BWS Ditko Layton Valiant, Sin City (actually any Miller), Hellboy (actually any Mignola) and Image top to bottom. The problem, an interesting one, is that the material isn't offered often or regularly. As a collector of non-Big Two you have to have a lot of patience and be willing to buy what the market does occasionally offer.

Twenty-five years ago I would have loved to have gotten anything Ralph Snart. As it turned out I was able to get one published panel page, lost another on eBay by foolishly not bidding to the moon (and thus being outbid by one very rational increment instead), had another original (not sure if published or not) gifted to me by another artist and seeing one or two others on CAF (maybe there today maybe not, haven't looked in years). For whatever reason, this not particularly well-loved title is just about impossible to find originals for. But when they do come up...you'd better be ready with your $150 ( :) ). Yeah, seriously. And that's the problem of low prices...they don't shake the trees. And if we can agree that FMV is $150 for a decent RS panel page...$250-$350 sounds like the aggressive sort of 'stupid money' offer that might bring some out of the woodwork. Well I can guarantee you that I wouldn't sell mine for less than $1500 -and only if I was under financial duress. Sure I am completely out to lunch, but I also know that my chances of getting a replacement in the next twenty-five years are pretty close to nil. They just are not, presently, out and about. And that's what I think is the problem with the entire non-Big Two market above. Not loved enough to shake the trees, which perpetuates nobody paying much,  except weirdos like me, when the occasional example does pop up on eBay for $1 starting bid and no reserve. But if I create a dealing site or put it up on CAF with that $1500 price tag...crickets for the next twenty-five years. Also guaranteed ;)

As to the Chaykin American Flagg market...it's actually quite robust under relative comparison. I can remember when Mitch used to list the stuff in his catalogs and later web site...a couple of hundred for a nice panel page was hardly an insta-sell. There was much more supply than demand. That's turned around the last five or maybe seven years, but that's probably because it's not competing with 80s superhero Marvel and DC for $200 anymore either. I myself faced that choice numerous times in the late 90s and early 00s...Chaykin AF or Sienkiewicz Moon Knight or New Mutants...both on Mitch's site (or list) and both with approximately the same eye-appeal and price tag. Financially speaking, I made the wise choice every time with Sinky. Last ten years that stuff moved up...a lot and suddenly the Chaykin AF is left by its lonesome looking 'cheap'. Funny world. I'll never get tired of playing the game and talking about it.

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2 hours ago, vodou said:

Yes. And I'll expand that thought further to include almost all 80s and early 90s independent art except for the obvious: Cerebus, TMNT, Groo, BWS Ditko Layton Valiant, Sin City (actually any Miller), Hellboy (actually any Mignola) and Image top to bottom. The problem, an interesting one, is that the material isn't offered often or regularly. As a collector of non-Big Two you have to have a lot of patience and be willing to buy what the market does occasionally offer.

Twenty-five years ago I would have loved to have gotten anything Ralph Snart. As it turned out I was able to get one published panel page, lost another on eBay by foolishly not bidding to the moon (and thus being outbid by one very rational increment instead), had another original (not sure if published or not) gifted to me by another artist and seeing one or two others on CAF (maybe there today maybe not, haven't looked in years). For whatever reason, this not particularly well-loved title is just about impossible to find originals for. But when they do come up...you'd better be ready with your $150 ( :) ). Yeah, seriously. And that's the problem of low prices...they don't shake the trees. And if we can agree that FMV is $150 for a decent RS panel page...$250-$350 sounds like the aggressive sort of 'stupid money' offer that might bring some out of the woodwork. Well I can guarantee you that I wouldn't sell mine for less than $1500 -and only if I was under financial duress. Sure I am completely out to lunch, but I also know that my chances of getting a replacement in the next twenty-five years are pretty close to nil. They just are not, presently, out and about. And that's what I think is the problem with the entire non-Big Two market above. Not loved enough to shake the trees, which perpetuates nobody paying much,  except weirdos like me, when the occasional example does pop up on eBay for $1 starting bid and no reserve. But if I create a dealing site or put it up on CAF with that $1500 price tag...crickets for the next twenty-five years. Also guaranteed ;)

As to the Chaykin American Flagg market...it's actually quite robust under relative comparison. I can remember when Mitch used to list the stuff in his catalogs and later web site...a couple of hundred for a nice panel page was hardly an insta-sell. There was much more supply than demand. That's turned around the last five or maybe seven years, but that's probably because it's not competing with 80s superhero Marvel and DC for $200 anymore either. I myself faced that choice numerous times in the late 90s and early 00s...Chaykin AF or Sienkiewicz Moon Knight or New Mutants...both on Mitch's site (or list) and both with approximately the same eye-appeal and price tag. Financially speaking, I made the wise choice every time with Sinky. Last ten years that stuff moved

Not even very many Chaykin AF pages listed on Comic Art Tracker.

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1 hour ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Not even very many Chaykin AF pages listed on Comic Art Tracker.

Not anymore. Go back 10-15 years (admittedly a long time, but not nearly as long as how long Howard sat on them) and you'd be tripping over them. I'm sure the key sequences and splashes were snapped up a very long time ago, but otherwise so-called "decent" pages were plentiful and not selling for list.

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4 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I think collectors who have nostalgia for certain eras (principally when they were in late adolescence and teenagers), think the best stuff from their era is special. Personally, I think early 80's First Comics art is criminally undervalued in the market, relative to its quality and importance. I mean, American Flagg, to me, was just as important as TDKR or Watchmen. But it wasn't published by the Big Two.

A quality comparison is subjective, but the book needs to reach people to have impact.  Flagg had a fraction of the audience of the other two when they were fresh on the spinner racks, and the discrepancy in reach has been amplified exponentially over time.

 

 

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They weren't all this bad, but here are a few covers to give everyone a sense of the state of Batman when Miller started
telling his version. The historical significance and impact of DK for the comics world really can't be understated...

batman.thumb.jpg.05dcabad1b8ac8567db46b803d3615a7.jpg

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