• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

New podcast/video from Felix Comic Art (UPDATED 1/3/17!)
6 6

1,647 posts in this topic

Not that Batman was bad at that that time necessarily, just irrelevant.    I would think it was one of the low water marks for his popularity?

I wonder where on the Top 100 titles he was at that time.   Anybody know?   

Batman is so big now that I think its easy for people who didn't live it to forget that there was a dearth of anything Batman and interesting from about the TV show and Neal Adams to about Dark Knight and the Micheal Keaton movie.     That 15 years was mostly dead space, at least comparatively speaking.

 

Edited by Bronty
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, eewwnuk said:

1st appearance of black mask, a man bat story, a hatter.  moench writing, mandrake art.  maybe its me but I don't see those as being bad bat books?

...Just saying they appealed to a different audience than Dark Knight did. 

Edited by J.Sid
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Bronty said:

Not that Batman was bad at that that time necessarily, just irrelevant.    I would think it was one of the low water marks for his popularity?

I wonder where on the Top 100 titles he was at that time.   Anybody know?   

Batman is so big now that I think its easy for people who didn't live it to forget that there was a dearth of anything Batman and interesting from about the TV show and Neal Adams to about Dark Knight and the Micheal Keaton movie.     That 15 years was mostly dead space, at least comparatively speaking.

 

It was pretty drastic, in terms of turnaround, the year BEFORE DKR and the year AFTER DKR.

1985...Batman had 75,000 copies a month in sales on average, with over 60% of printed copies being returned.

1987...Batman had 193,000 copies a month in sales on average, with under 29% of printed copies being returned.

Batman had a progressive, almost annual, drop in print run from 1966 to 1985, then a 20% uptick in 1986, followed by sales doubling in 1987.

From 1976 to 1985 sales dropped every year but for one (1979) which, perhaps coincidentally, was the year Uslan acquired the rights to make a Batman film. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for listening, everyone. Good conversation. 

I’ve had a number of emails come through on CAF regarding the podcast. Interesting trend: they also were not impacted by DKR, and in some cases downright hated it. I’m surprised to hear this from some collectors, and it’s my belief there’s a reservation among younger collectors to express this as it will somehow discredit them in a hobby which is dominated by mature individuals.

When I first read DKR in my teens, I really did not like it. I felt it was far too copy-heavy and the news segments were incredibly boring and broke up the action. I view it very differently now having gone back to it, but it’s still not in my personal top 5. I have no nostalgia towards it, despite reading it early on.

Regarding nostalgia strength VS time, my view differs from Felix’s a bit. Although Dark Victory, HUSH, and Long Halloween were among the first comics I read, it’s Court of Owls which I hold the fondest memories of. This is true for some other listeners who have contacted me as well, as a number of them jumped into comics with the New 52 reboot, or really amped it up when things seemingly became more accessible. Yes, it feels like comics nowadays are reset to #1 almost yearly, but this was the FIRST time Batman went back to #1, and psychologically that brought a lot of new readers in.

Anyhow, it will be interesting to watch prices over the next couple decades. Because the vast majority of art collectors skew older — and sometimes don’t even read new comics from the big two — there’s an inherent lack of appreciation of new work VS the older stuff. Where comments like “Snyder and Capullo’s run was average” and “White Knight is horrible” is echoed among the veteran collectors, an intense and opposing reaction is heard from the younger, heavily active readership. Do you have any idea the hype that is heard throughout local comic stores for White Knight? 

As I mentioned, I do best on the pieces which are absurdly priced and mocked, by far. In part, I attribute this to not possessing a heavy bias towards older work, for whatever significance or reason, which can sometimes lead to a disconnect to what’s happening today. An observation!

Edited by Mr. Machismo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, comix4fun said:

It was pretty drastic, in terms of turnaround, the year BEFORE DKR and the year AFTER DKR.

1985...Batman had 75,000 copies a month in sales on average, with over 60% of printed copies being returned.

1987...Batman had 193,000 copies a month in sales on average, with under 29% of printed copies being returned.

Batman had a progressive, almost annual, drop in print run from 1966 to 1985, then a 20% uptick in 1986, followed by sales doubling in 1987.

From 1976 to 1985 sales dropped every year but for one (1979) which, perhaps coincidentally, was the year Uslan acquired the rights to make a Batman film. 

What were the sales like for all of DC's titles at the time? 1985-1986 saw the publication of Crisis on Infinite Earths, which consolidated the entire line's continuity, and was a big event. If Batman's sales went up disproportionately compared to, say, Superman or Flash, that would be evidence of Dark Knight's impact. But, if his titles increased about the same as the others, then it may be more of a DC-wide reinvigoration.

For example, Superman went from averaging 98,000 circulation average per month in 1985 to almost 162,000 per month in 1987, per Comichron. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

What were the sales like for all of DC's titles at the time? 1985-1986 saw the publication of Crisis on Infinite Earths, which consolidated the entire line's continuity, and was a big event. If Batman's sales went up disproportionately compared to, say, Superman or Flash, that would be evidence of Dark Knight's impact. But, if his titles increased about the same as the others, then it may be more of a DC-wide reinvigoration.

For example, Superman went from averaging 98,000 circulation average per month in 1985 to almost 162,000 per month in 1987, per Comichron. 

Superman's bump was most likely due to Byrne's Man of Steel series that reinvigorated the run, as well as the relaunched the Superman title as "Adventures of Superman" in January 1987.

There's usually a bump when a series gets relaunched or get's renumbered to #1, etc. Superman got a popular Mini & a relaunch. 

They killed the original Flash in Crisis (SPOILERS!!) and relaunched an entirely new series, so that probably doesn't help. There weren't many more really top shelf DC titles to compare to that there are easily found records. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, comix4fun said:

Superman's bump was most likely due to Byrne's Man of Steel series that reinvigorated the run, as well as the relaunched the Superman title as "Adventures of Superman" in January 1987.

There's usually a bump when a series gets relaunched or get's renumbered to #1, etc. Superman got a popular Mini & a relaunch. 

They killed the original Flash in Crisis (SPOILERS!!) and relaunched an entirely new series, so that probably doesn't help. There weren't many more really top shelf DC titles to compare to that there are easily found records. 

The Batman title also published Batman Year 1 in 1987. Written by Miller, to probably take advantage of the TDKR popularity. That was also the year Batman meets Jason Todd, who becomes the new Robin. There was a LOT of stuff going on in the Batman title itself. It wasn't just a halo effect from TDKR.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

The Batman title also published Batman Year 1 in 1987. Written by Miller, to probably take advantage of the TDKR popularity. That was also the year Batman meets Jason Todd, who becomes the new Robin. There was a LOT of stuff going on in the Batman title itself. It wasn't just a halo effect from TDKR.

I wasn't saying it was though. I was saying it was the demarcation line, and a big reason for the bump.

But I'd caution the side of the "chicken and egg" you're choosing on Year One. Perhaps it would have been popular, but not instantly seismic, in it's impact on the title if there had not been another MASSIVELY popular series in DKR that preceded it and firmly focused all eyes on the hobby squarely on Batman once again. It certainly benefited from being launched in a world that had fallen in love with Batman again. 

The success and anticipation of Year One was certainly heightened by DKR blowing everyone's doors off. 

Jason Todd appeared in 1983 though. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, comix4fun said:

I wasn't saying it was though. I was saying it was the demarcation line, and a big reason for the bump.

But I'd caution the side of the "chicken and egg" you're choosing on Year One. Perhaps it would have been popular, but not instantly seismic, in it's impact on the title if there had not been another MASSIVELY popular series in DKR that preceded it and firmly focused all eyes on the hobby squarely on Batman once again. It certainly benefited from being launched in a world that had fallen in love with Batman again. 

The success and anticipation of Year One was certainly heightened by DKR blowing everyone's doors off. 

Jason Todd appeared in 1983 though. 

The rebooted, post Crisis Jason Todd, I should have said.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

The rebooted, post Crisis Jason Todd, I should have said.

The one who was so popular that readers almost immediately voted that the Joker should bludgeon him to death the next year? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

I wasn't saying it was though. I was saying it was the demarcation line, and a big reason for the bump.

But I'd caution the side of the "chicken and egg" you're choosing on Year One. Perhaps it would have been popular, but not instantly seismic, in it's impact on the title if there had not been another MASSIVELY popular series in DKR that preceded it and firmly focused all eyes on the hobby squarely on Batman once again. It certainly benefited from being launched in a world that had fallen in love with Batman again. 

The success and anticipation of Year One was certainly heightened by DKR blowing everyone's doors off. 

Jason Todd appeared in 1983 though. 

I think a Batman series written by Frank Miller at the time would have garnered a LOT of attention - and sales -, even had TDKR not been published already. Especially with the Daredevil "Born Again" creative team being reunited.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, comix4fun said:

The one who was so popular that readers almost immediately voted that the Joker should bludgeon him to death the next year? 

Of course, people bought comics in those days for a lot of reasons. Speculation being one of them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I think a Batman series written by Frank Miller at the time would have garnered a LOT of attention - and sales -, even had TDKR not been published already. Especially with the Daredevil "Born Again" creative team being reunited.

No doubt it would have been popular. But I think we're underestimating just how big a deal DKR was and how smoothly it made all Batman merch and books fly subsequently. 

The reason editors wanted a Batman: Year One was almost entirely because of the millions of units they  moved on Batman: Year "Done". 

We may have not seen Year One without it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mr. Machismo said:

Thanks for listening, everyone. Good conversation. 

I’ve had a number of emails come through on CAF regarding the podcast. Interesting trend: they also were not impacted by DKR, and in some cases downright hated it. I’m surprised to hear this from some collectors, and it’s my belief there’s a reservation among younger collectors to express this as it will somehow discredit them in a hobby which is dominated by mature individuals.

When I first read DKR in my teens, I really did not like it. I felt it was far too copy-heavy and the news segments were incredibly boring and broke up the action. I view it very differently now having gone back to it, but it’s still not in my personal top 5. I have no nostalgia towards it, despite reading it early on.

Regarding nostalgia strength VS time, my view differs from Felix’s a bit. Although Dark Victory, HUSH, and Long Halloween were among the first comics I read, it’s Court of Owls which I hold the fondest memories of. This is true for some other listeners who have contacted me as well, as a number of them jumped into comics with the New 52 reboot, or really amped it up when things seemingly became more accessible. Yes, it feels like comics nowadays are reset to #1 almost yearly, but this was the FIRST time Batman went back to #1, and psychologically that brought a lot of new readers in.

Anyhow, it will be interesting to watch prices over the next couple decades. Because the vast majority of art collectors skew older — and sometimes don’t even read new comics from the big two — there’s an inherent lack of appreciation of new work VS the older stuff. Where comments like “Snyder and Capullo’s run was average” and “White Knight is horrible” is echoed among the veteran collectors, an intense and opposing reaction is heard from the younger, heavily active readership. Do you have any idea the hype that is heard throughout local comic stores for White Knight? 

As I mentioned, I do best on the pieces which are absurdly priced and mocked, by far. In part, I attribute this to not possessing a heavy bias towards older work, for whatever significance or reason, which can sometimes lead to a disconnect to what’s happening today. An observation!

Interesting observations Kyle, and I think they largely ring true.  I'm in both worlds somewhat as both a old guy fan/collector and old guy creator.  There is a bit of disconnect between generations about what moves which needles, and about perceived merit/enthusiasm/dismissal versus the real thing.  I think your podcast session is useful for people to hear and get a perspective that's a little bit different from the usual suspects that have been doing this for a long time.  Good on you, and good on Felix for providing a platform to hear some alternate views to comics and the OA hobby.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, Scott. The further ahead we go, the more we’ll see “classics” change, I think. And to define my usage of classic, I mean memorable stories which are considered mandatory reads as X fan. The stories that continually hit top 10 lists and are referred by active-reader friends.

Yes, DKR is absolutely a classic to most of us, but to many younger readers it’s not. I don’t share this sentiment, but it can be viewed as just another Batman story which leans too heavy on copy, has terrible art (DKR Gallery edition sits on my coffee table and routinely gets scolded for “poor” artwork by guests), and is a little too goofy and dated. 

Long [long-] term, I see a story like HUSH surpassing DKR, and I’m not saying that because Scott is here. It reaches a far greater audience, showcases a wide gallery of villains, has tight and dynamic art that isn’t seen as “scribbly” or bad — but rather generally appealing and familiar — and reads just as well today as it did in its release because it doesn’t rely on issues of the day to drive it. It’s much farther reaching in terms of its appeal, despite having a weaker story than DKR. I believe the same for Court. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Mr. Machismo said:

Thanks, Scott. The further ahead we go, the more we’ll see “classics” change, I think. And to define my usage of classic, I mean memorable stories which are considered mandatory reads as X fan. The stories that continually hit top 10 lists and are referred by active-reader friends.

Yes, DKR is absolutely a classic to most of us, but to many younger readers it’s not. I don’t share this sentiment, but it can be viewed as just another Batman story which leans too heavy on copy, has terrible art (DKR Gallery edition sits on my coffee table and routinely gets scolded for “poor” artwork by guests), and is a little too goofy and dated. 

Long [long-] term, I see a story like HUSH surpassing DKR, and I’m not saying that because Scott is here. It reaches a far greater audience, showcases a wide gallery of villains, has tight and dynamic art that isn’t seen as “scribbly” or bad — but rather generally appealing and familiar — and reads just as well today as it did in its release because it doesn’t rely on issues of the day to drive it. It’s much farther reaching in terms of its appeal, despite having a weaker story than DKR. I believe the same for Court. 

The number of copies sold of recent Batman (or any) comics pales in comparison to the sales figures of TDKR. The audience is much smaller today than it was then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, Mr. Machismo said:

Thanks, Scott. The further ahead we go, the more we’ll see “classics” change, I think. And to define my usage of classic, I mean memorable stories which are considered mandatory reads as X fan. The stories that continually hit top 10 lists and are referred by active-reader friends.

Yes, DKR is absolutely a classic to most of us, but to many younger readers it’s not. I don’t share this sentiment, but it can be viewed as just another Batman story which leans too heavy on copy, has terrible art (DKR Gallery edition sits on my coffee table and routinely gets scolded for “poor” artwork by guests), and is a little too goofy and dated. 

Long [long-] term, I see a story like HUSH surpassing DKR, and I’m not saying that because Scott is here. It reaches a far greater audience, showcases a wide gallery of villains, has tight and dynamic art that isn’t seen as “scribbly” or bad — but rather generally appealing and familiar — and reads just as well today as it did in its release because it doesn’t rely on issues of the day to drive it. It’s much farther reaching in terms of its appeal, despite having a weaker story than DKR. I believe the same for Court. 

That's an interesting take, for sure. 

Miller's DKR style (evolved from DD and prior to it's re-evolution for Sin City) was certainly a shock to the system at the time. The story overrode all of those concerns though, to the point that seeing those pages, in that style, brings one back and enhances what a great story it was. 

The Hush artwork is lush and gorgeous and far more what's expected from a major character storyline. I love it. I love looking at it. The story, however, starts great and draws you in but tends to leave one less than satisfied. I felt the same about Old Man Logan. That's most likely because it was intended to be a shorter series but, due to overwhelming popularity and sales, was stretched and diluted to the point of being unrecognizable from where it started (plot wise) in the end. 

So you bring up a good point. What makes a story last? Being "well" drawn (for those that don't appreciate Miller's-then-style) or being well written?

If a story is going to be missing something, it can be in the pictures and not in the plot. 

Lots of people draw well. Lots of people draw Batman well. Without a superior story that remains so through beginning, middle, and end, You may run into a situation where the pictures cannot sustain where the words fail. Whereas we've seen the words of DKR sustain where there's less than total agreement that the pictures succeed. 

Ideally, you'd like to have BOTH. For the majority of comic fans DKR has both.  Hush is certainly the best of the last couple decades of Batman story arcs, but does it really transcend and hit on all cylinders? Not always. The pictures never fail but the plot does stumble. 

I guess time will tell. 

Edited by comix4fun
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
6 6