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[Bronty]

26 minutes ago, Mr. Machismo said:

 

20 years from now, a teenager sees HUSH* and DKR trades side-by-side on Amazon, they’re going to think DKR looks dated and is poorly drawn. They are not going to force their smartphone-attention spans to digest 100-200 pages because their grandfather told them how important DKR was.

 

They are also going to think Hush looks dated and poorly drawn...  !     

 

[Brian Peck]

1 hour ago, Mr. Machismo said:

Thanks, Scott. The further ahead we go, the more we’ll see “classics” change, I think. And to define my usage of classic, I mean memorable stories which are considered mandatory reads as X fan. The stories that continually hit top 10 lists and are referred by active-reader friends.

Yes, DKR is absolutely a classic to most of us, but to many younger readers it’s not. I don’t share this sentiment, but it can be viewed as just another Batman story which leans too heavy on copy, has terrible art (DKR Gallery edition sits on my coffee table and routinely gets scolded for “poor” artwork by guests), and is a little too goofy and dated. 

Long [long-] term, I see a story like HUSH surpassing DKR, and I’m not saying that because Scott is here. It reaches a far greater audience, showcases a wide gallery of villains, has tight and dynamic art that isn’t seen as “scribbly” or bad — but rather generally appealing and familiar — and reads just as well today as it did in its release because it doesn’t rely on issues of the day to drive it. It’s much farther reaching in terms of its appeal, despite having a weaker story than DKR. I believe the same for Court. 

Problem is you mention to the non comic book reader about Hush and they dont know what you are talking about. After DKR and Watchment came out many comic book readers would shared them with their friends and classmates even in college. Many people I knew in college didn’t read comic books either know of DKN and Watchmen or had read them. I don’t see the sharing of Hush outside of the comic book community.

[Skizz]

38 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Why would a teenager think that DKR is poorly drawn? 

I’d preface by saying that I think that Dark Knight Returns is absolutely the better written story than Hush.  Miller and DKR actually had something to say about society and the human condition whereas Hush just felt like another comic with a large cast of characters.

But as far as the art goes, I have to agree with Kyle. Notwithstanding the fact that 80s Frank Miller art sells for big money, I’ve always felt that Miller’s art prior to Sin City was rough and unfinished and that he should have spent more time on it. 

Having said that, it can be argued that that rough quality works for the Dark Knight Returns in the same may that the amateurish biro pen drawn style works for Maus.

But more importantly, I think that as long as a story grabs you in the first few pages, the reader accepts the art style for what it is and gets immersed.  And to that end Dark Knight Rises is easily the superior, more engaging story. 

I would hazard a guess that 20 years from now more newer reader will be buying trades and deluxe editions of Dark Knight Returns than Hush.  But will they pay the 1.5 to 2 million dollars that would likely be asking price for 448 splash and it’s like by that time. I’d think unlikely without the first hand experience of having grown up in the 1980s.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Skizz

[Brian Peck]

1 hour ago, Mr. Machismo said:

If DKR was released today, how would it hold up? That’s my point. As generations die off, so will appreciation for the [original] classics. Current VS past readership is somewhat irrelevant in this discussion as previous generations pass away. We’re talking far ahead here.

I don’t believe the generations to come are going to appreciate something for its cultural significance as it’s been stated. Being much younger, what I see is rapidly increasing apathy in that regard, on all fronts.

20 years from now, a teenager sees HUSH* and DKR trades side-by-side on Amazon, they’re going to think DKR looks dated and is poorly drawn. They are not going to force their smartphone-attention spans to digest 100-200 pages because their grandfather told them how important DKR was.

*I’m using HUSH as a general example here of a comic DC/Top 10 lists will continually push for the foreseeable future, and acknowledge DKR is the superior comic, though not in terms of my personal tastes. And yes, HUSH may very will hit the curb side for not firing as well on story as it could have, but I believe DKR will become irrelevant first strictly on apathy towards classics. 

If there was not DKR and Watchmen then many of the books today like Husk would never had been created. They are two different periods in time.

[stinkininkin]

From a DKR plot/story standpoint alone, I'm too close to it to judge it harshly.  I loved it when it came out because it was so well conceived and different from anything else I'd seen relating to Batman (the older, retired Batman thing/final confrontation with Joker/girl Robin and final legacy and  just blew my mind).  But art wise, I don't think Miller's work was "poorly drawn", I just think a lot of it was ugly as h e l l.   Especially in black and white (Miller wanted so much of it to be carries by the color).  I know for me that even though I've always wanted a DKR piece in my collection, some of the black and white stuff is somewhat less inviting to own as a stand alone piece (especially with added burden of price).  The ugly art seems somehow appropriate to the story, but I can see why that alone might be a barrier to some.  Hard to appreciate the art (for some) without the context of the story, and hard to appreciate the story (for some) when you can't get past the art.  I think both are classic and will stand the test of time, but it's easy to understand why it might not be 100% universal for all.

[Nexus]

1 minute ago, stinkininkin said:

From a DKR plot/story standpoint alone, I'm too close to it to judge it harshly.  I loved it when it came out because it was so well conceived and different from anything else I'd seen relating to Batman (the older, retired Batman thing/final confrontation with Joker/girl Robin and final legacy and  just blew my mind).  But art wise, I don't think Miller's work was "poorly drawn", I just think a lot of it was ugly as h e l l.   Especially in black and white (Miller wanted so much of it to be carries by the color).  I know for me that even though I've always wanted a DKR piece in my collection, some of the black and white stuff is somewhat less inviting to own as a stand alone piece (especially with added burden of price).  The ugly art seems somehow appropriate to the story, but I can see why that alone might be a barrier to some.  Hard to appreciate the art (for some) without the context of the story, and hard to appreciate the story (for some) when you can't get past the art.  I think both are classic and will stand the test of time, but it's easy to understand why it might not be 100% universal for all.

IMO, a big difference between Miller/Janson and Miller/Miller on DKR. The former...well, I can understand why they stopped working together for 30 years. The latter, though, is some of my all-time favorite Miller art.

[delekkerste]

21 minutes ago, Skizz said:

I would hazard a guess that 20 years from now more newer reader will be buying trades and deluxe editions of Dark Knight Returns than Hush.  But will they pay the 1.5 to 2 million dollars that would likely be asking price for 448 splash and it’s like by that time. I’d think unlikely without the first hand experience of having grown up in the 1980s.

Whether that $448K DKR 3 splash is at $2 million or $200K or $20K in 20 years' time, I am confident that it will be more valuable relatively than Hush or Court of Owls art.  Tastes change, yes, but I believe the relative hierarchy will remain.  I understand that the Millennials have a different outlook on things than Gen X - I've noted that fact MORE THAN ANYONE here on the Boards over the years.  But, like I said, you also have to recognize that it's not just about present tastes or even the all-powerful nostalgia factor.  There's a reason why certain things in a given hobby or genre remain touchstones even with the passing of generations, and that has everything to do with shared history/tradition, recognition of importance and enduring relevance, and other factors outside of current tastes.   

Edited January 10, 2018 by delekkerste

[Nexus]

I can appreciate and understand that each era's fans have their own favorites and will carry their own biases. However, if future generations stop caring about DKR, it won't be because it was supplanted by by HUSH/COURT OF OWLS/et al. It will be because they have stopped caring about Batman comics, across the board. Which wouldn't bode well for superhero comics, in general, either.

 

[PhilipB2k17]

1 hour ago, J.Sid said:

Too funny. The movie indeed came out in 1989. What year did they start development? 1986? Has to be a coincidence. Has to.

 

1979, actually. And Uslan has stated publicly that he intended to bring Batman back to his original dark noir roots.

[Nexus]

22 hours ago, vodou said:

Not anymore. Go back 10-15 years (admittedly a long time, but not nearly as long as how long Howard sat on them) and you'd be tripping over them. I'm sure the key sequences and splashes were snapped up a very long time ago, but otherwise so-called "decent" pages were plentiful and not selling for list.

Sorry, bouncing all over the place...

Yes, AF pages don't show up much these days, but 10-15 years ago, they were quite readily available. Mostly around $150-200. What's truly been scarce, even 10-15 years ago, are covers. Those almost never pop up.

Back in the '80s, AF was very much in the same conversation with DKR and WM in terms of edgy, forward-thinking mainstream books. The creators were all fans of each other's works. Alan Moore wrote an issue of AF. He wore a Mage shirt. All those books and creators were bunched much more closely together by fans and critics. 30 years later, DKR and WM have risen to the top, and the rest have been seemingly left behind. For a variety of reasons. Which also re-emphasizes the point...only time will tell what lasts.

[comix4fun]

6 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

1979, actually. And Uslan has stated publicly that he intended to bring Batman back to his original dark noir roots.

I think he was saying the extraordinary attention, success, and hype surrounding DKR is what finally got the production fully greenlit and on the rails after 7 years of nothing happening. 

[Nexus]

1 minute ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

1979, actually. And Uslan has stated publicly that he intended to bring Batman back to his original dark noir roots.

The movie was not in active development in 1979. It only became a possibility then because of the success of SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE.

Uslan was a producer in name, only. The ones who got the 1989 movie going were Peter Guber and Jon Peters. And, of course, Tim Burton. It can't be understated how much of an influence DKR had on that film.

[PhilipB2k17]

8 minutes ago, Nexus said:

The movie was not in active development in 1979. It only became a possibility then because of the success of SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE.

Uslan was a producer in name, only. The ones who got the 1989 movie going were Peter Guber and Jon Peters. And, of course, Tim Burton. It can't be understated how much of an influence DKR had on that film.

Burton cited Killing Joke, actually, as more of an influence. But the sales figures for TDKR and KJ did help convince the studio to keep it in development. It was only after Burton scored a hit with Beetlejuice that they greenlighted it.

[Nexus]

11 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Burton cited Killing Joke, actually, as more of an influence. But the sales figures for TDKR and KJ did help convince the studio to keep it in development. It was only after Burton scored a hit with Beetlejuice that they greenlighted it.

That era is very near and dear to my heart (even if I'm not actually a fan of that movie!).

I got to go to the premiere in Westwood. Had my pic taken with Kim Basinger. Took a leak next to Christian Slater. Then snuck into the afterparty with a pal, where we saw Keaton, Burton, Bob Kane...shook hands with Prince...got blown off by Jack Nicholson.

A few years later, had Guber as an instructor for a Producer's Program course. He was still coasting off BATMAN, and it was the model for studying blockbusters.

During that time, I was also working for the producers of WATCHMEN. The production designer was Anton Furst. Who had also designed BATMAN.

Anyway, you'll have to take my word for it that DKR informed all of that.

 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Nexus

[Skizz]

1 hour ago, delekkerste said:

Whether that $448K DKR 3 splash is at $2 million or $200K or $20K in 20 years' time, I am confident that it will be more valuable relatively than Hush or Court of Owls art.  Tastes change, yes, but I believe the relative hierarchy will remain.  I understand that the Millennials have a different outlook on things than Gen X - I've noted that fact MORE THAN ANYONE here on the Boards over the years.  But, like I said, you also have to recognize that it's not just about present tastes or even the all-powerful nostalgia factor.  There's a reason why certain things in a given hobby or genre remain touchstones even with the passing of generations, and that has everything to do with shared history/tradition, recognition of importance and enduring relevance, and other factors outside of current tastes.   

I agree, and it should.

But right now, Dark Knight Returns is around 10 times more expensive than Court of Owls (which, as an aside, I think is better written than Hush; at least having read the first three arcs).

20 to 30 years down the line, as the people presently in their 40s and 50s who have the most appreciation for DKR from having experienced it in their impressionable years, go out of the picture, this causes the prices of DKR to go down.

However, this loss of nostalgia collectors is somewhat countered by cross generational classic nature of the story. But the appreciation for a classic is a logical response to the having an understanding of history/tradition, which is less powerful than the emotional response that is created by nostalia.

So the two effects don’t cancel each other out so much as the decrease in price from loss of nostalgia collectors is somewhat mitigated.

At the same time, collectors who would have nostalgia for Court of Owls will be in their stage of life in 20 to 30 years, where they have the most disposable income. So they are then willing to fight over it like Dave Mandell over the 448 and let their emotions get the best of them in an auction for Court of Owls art.

I think that the overall effect of these different factors will be that the price disparity will lessen (somewhat or perhaps even drastically) even if DKR remains more valuable than Court of Owls.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Skizz

[vodou]

1 hour ago, Nexus said:

What's truly been scarce, even 10-15 years ago, are covers. Those almost never pop up.

So true. This is the one I would have paid $5k+ for in 2002 - even though that would have been absolutely ridiculous by all measures.

 

Now I don't care, for whatever reason I've moved on. That sometimes happens too...something, especially if you just cannot have it, seems so very special and then you grow as a collector and then you just don't care anymore.

[Nexus]

12 minutes ago, vodou said:

So true. This is the one I would have paid $5k+ for in 2002 - even though that would have been absolutely ridiculous by all measures.

Oh yeah...that's a great one. I think that's $5K+ even today.

Covers for some of the great (or at least favorite) '80s indies are out there: AF, MAGE, JON SABLE, BADGER, NEXUS, et al...but they just never show up for sale. Most aren't even on CAF, in collections. I imagine owners are inactive old-timers. I also imagine that these covers WILL emerge at some point down the line. Will be quite interesting to see what happens then.

 

[PhilipB2k17]

1 hour ago, Nexus said:

Oh yeah...that's a great one. I think that's $5K+ even today.

Covers for some of the great (or at least favorite) '80s indies are out there: AF, MAGE, JON SABLE, BADGER, NEXUS, et al...but they just never show up for sale. Most aren't even on CAF, in collections. I imagine owners are inactive old-timers. I also imagine that these covers WILL emerge at some point down the line. Will be quite interesting to see what happens then.

 

Joe Staton put a kick First E-Man cover up a while ago. Man was I tempted. I think it was the entire issue, in fact.   

[vodou]

2 hours ago, Nexus said:

I also imagine that these covers WILL emerge at some point down the line. Will be quite interesting to see what happens then.

Who but those age 40+ would care? That's where the money is, but that window is closing fast. If these things only come out of estates (like the stuff of Ethan's has) too much later, another ten or fifteen years...will even today's age 40+ care? They'll be 50+ and thinking a lot about how much Medicare doesn't cover. I don't think anybody born after 1978 will at all. And certainly not for more than $1k. Interesting will be those of us still alive watching them go for hundreds and even we can't muster the energy to hit the red button

[PhilipB2k17]

So...is $2500 for a Saint of Killers Preacher Page where he’s in half the panels, including facing the reader and 3/4 profile a good price? ?