New podcast/video from Felix Comic Art (UPDATED 1/3/17!) 6 6

[eewwnuk]

2 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

No interest as in "if someone offered it to me in a price range I could afford, I wouldn't buy it?" Or "that's so unobtainable, I don't pay that much attention to it?"

I guess if it was a bargain, well below FMV I would.  but if offered at FMV, or at an auction I wouldn't pay attention to it. 

[comix4fun]

6 minutes ago, eewwnuk said:

I may be in the minority in saying that I have no interest in ditko spidey or Kirby ff.  I would think that a younger generation would probably rather spend $50k on a splashy Jim Lee cover than some of this older art that they don't have any emotional connection with. 

That's probably how lots of collectors think, for sure. There are also various evolutions that most collectors go through over their time in the hobby. Certain artists lead to other artists which lead to those artists inspirations. The same with characters, histories, and eras. 

I started, too many moons ago, as a character collector. Then I added the titles I was nostalgic for in my childhood years. Then I started appreciating various artists and the artists that influenced them outside of my own personal nostalgia or first hand attachment. That led me to appreciating some of the finer nuanced details of certain eras. That also led me to appreciate the "peak" years of those various artists or eras. That wound up including artist teams where certain inkers meshed better than others with certain pencil artists. Before I knew it I was collecting work by artists I had never read as a kid, from eras when I wasn't even alive yet, and that I had no personal attachment towards beyond a developed appreciation for their skill and craft and their place in the overall history of the medium. 

It's all very emotional and internal, and maybe collectors start liking a certain artist and they stay there and never move from that original passion. Lots of others see their "art appreciation" bloom in different directions. So it's hard to peg an entire generation as heading in any one direction when you consider how art hits every person that sees it in a different way. 

Collecting isn't a straight road, I've come to discover for myself. 

[PhilipB2k17]

10 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

That's probably how lots of collectors think, for sure. There are also various evolutions that most collectors go through over their time in the hobby. Certain artists lead to other artists which lead to those artists inspirations. The same with characters, histories, and eras. 

I started, too many moons ago, as a character collector. Then I added the titles I was nostalgic for in my childhood years. Then I started appreciating various artists and the artists that influenced them outside of my own personal nostalgia or first hand attachment. That led me to appreciating some of the finer nuanced details of certain eras. That also led me to appreciate the "peak" years of those various artists or eras. That wound up including artist teams where certain inkers meshed better than others with certain pencil artists. Before I knew it I was collecting work by artists I had never read as a kid, from eras when I wasn't even alive yet, and that I had no personal attachment towards beyond a developed appreciation for their skill and craft and their place in the overall history of the medium. 

It's all very emotional and internal, and maybe collectors start liking a certain artist and they stay there and never move from that original passion. Lots of others see their "art appreciation" bloom in different directions. So it's hard to peg an entire generation as heading in any one direction when you consider how art hits every person that sees it in a different way. 

Collecting isn't a straight road, I've come to discover for myself. 

I agree with this. I think the sheer quality of Ditko's work on Spider-Man, which was an artistic high point, is going to keep interest high. Miller's TDKR art is an acquired taste, and many not play with younger collectors. I think Ditko has more of a classic style that even non-collectors appreciate.

One thing I do, incidentally, is show my art to my wife and ask her opinions. Some she likes. Some she doesn't. But she has ZERO interest in this stuff, or comics, or even the pop culture surrounding it all (except to a limited extent because I like it). She has literally NO nostalgia at all. It's pure aesthetics for her. And, while I use my own taste as the final arbiter on things, I do feel better about a purchase if my wife thinks its cool. It means that the art, in and of itself, has an intrinsic appeal to complete hobby outsiders. It's a nice corrective to my nostalgia haze.

Edited January 11, 2018 by PhilipB2k17

[stinkininkin]

8 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I agree with this. I think the sheer quality of Ditko's work on Spider-Man, which was an artistic high point, is going to keep interest high. Miller's TDKR art is an acquired taste, and many not play with younger collectors. I think Ditko has more of a classic style that even non-collectors appreciate.

I'll just say as an old timer that "gets" Ditko Spidey, it is definitely an acquired taste, every bit as much as Miller DKR. 

 

Edited January 11, 2018 by stinkininkin

[PhilipB2k17]

Just now, stinkininkin said:

I'll just say as an old timer that "gets" Ditko Spidey, it is definitely an acquired taste, every bit as much as Miller DKR. 

 

I'm not sure I agree with that. Ditko, per se, has an interesting style that may not be for everyone. But, his work on Spider-Man fit that character perfectly, so the compositional, and anatomical idiosyncrasies he brought to the table were less of an issue. When he drew those Rom books, yes. It was bracing. But, for the rubbery world of Spider-Man, he was perfect. Can't imagine even Kirby pulling that off.

[Nexus]

15 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

So...is $2500 for a Saint of Killers Preacher Page where he’s in half the panels, including facing the reader and 3/4 profile a good price? ?

Sounds pretty good...but need to see the art to say for sure!

[PhilipB2k17]

6 minutes ago, Nexus said:

Sounds pretty good...but need to see the art to say for sure!

I'll shoot you an e-mail.

[Nexus]

14 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

Is it fair to say that  - for those stories that remain in print or take on new life in movies or gaming - a new generation can take over  from nostalgia buyers who grew up with the work when it was new?

Anything that remains in print has at least a *chance* of gaining new fans, beyond the ones from its original release. Anything that doesn't...is more or less circling the drain. That's why interest in AMERICAN FLAGG! ends when my generation stops caring. But interest in WM, DKR, V, et al will carry forward for at least the foreseeable future.

14 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

What about inheritance - will some kids of current collectors take up the mantle? Will they take over the collections and grow them? Or even if they just keep them - will that keep prices up as supply is low? Or will all this art be dumped on the market at some point?

How much do you care about what your parents care(d) about? Just curious. See below.

14 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

Anyone here ever get artwork handed down to you that hung in your home as a child?

Even though you wouldnt pick the item if it was up to you - you still love it and cherish it because of the memories attached to it?

Benno is on here occasionally, so I hope he sees this. I'll just mention something he told me before our last podcast. I wish it had made it in. Anyhow, he was talking to his adult daughter about his collection. The one piece she requested that he leave her was his DKR splash. Not because she cares about Batman or Miller or really, even comic art. It's because she knows what the piece means to her dad. That's her attachment to it. I loved that story. I'll have to have him tell it himself the next time he's on the show.

[comix4fun]

1 minute ago, Nexus said:

Benno is on here occasionally, so I hope he sees this. I'll just mention something he told me before our last podcast. I wish it had made it in. Anyhow, he was talking to his adult daughter about his collection. The one piece she requested that he leave her was his DKR splash. Not because she cares about Batman or Miller or really, even comic art. It's because she knows what the piece means to her dad. That's her attachment to it. I loved that story. I'll have to have him tell it himself the next time he's on the show.

That's a nice story. 

I'm going to use that to make my own children feel horrible about themselves. 

 

[ESeffinga]

Out there somewhere is some kid who will be keeping their Dad's collection of framed commissions of knocked out naked superheroines, just because of how much it meant to him, and/or how nostalgic Powergirl's boobies make them for when they were young and saw them every day growing up.

Edited January 11, 2018 by ESeffinga

[PhilipB2k17]

3 minutes ago, ESeffinga said:

Out there somewhere is some kid who will be keeping their Dad's collection of framed commissions of knocked out naked superheroines, just because of how much it meant to him, and/or how nostalgic Powergirl's boobies make them for when they were young and saw them every day growing up.

Or, because he can't get rid of them.

[Nexus]

11 hours ago, NelsonAI said:

From Felix's own roster, how about Tradd Moore or Skottie Young?  Their art will sell regardless of the writing.

Thanks for the plug, Nelson!

And you ain't kidding. Tradd did an issue of SUICIDE SQUAD for DC in 2016. It's been in publishing limbo ever since. He decided to sell the art, since there was no discernible movement with it seeing print.

So...the art is unpublished. No one's even seen it. No one knew who the writer was. That's a lot going against it.

We still sold out every single page. For the same prices that we would have asked if it was published. You can see the art here:

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?Details=1&ArtistId=587&Mag=SUICIDE+SQUAD

Anyway...voudou is right. For many collectors, they don't need to have read the comic before buying the art. More on that in a sec...

 

[Nexus]

4 hours ago, vodou said:

Instead...example: how many are buying Chiang Paper Girls, DWJ Extremity quickly (before the ers sell out!) having not read a single issue, no idea what the story is about even, and neither being obvious as to what they are (visually speaking) except that (broadly) reviews seem favorable, both released by proper publishers (versus self-p, thus some editorial gatekeeping at play) and...the sht sells out fast (did I mention that already?) I did that recently, bought blind, several times. The art caught my eye, was attractive at a quick glance but also drew me in to wanting to figure it out 'more'. Because I don't buy single floppies anymore, only collecteds, I'm always 'behind' on what Felix is offering. That means: I don't know the storyline, the characters, what I'm even looking at on a given original (buncha faces, buncha action, whatever, without dialogue even!) A real blind purchase in the sense I'm bringing it up. (Except that it is sequential, so we're not talking about abstract collage art or something!) And in case it hasn't sunk in yet...you have to get there early to get something good and, more and more, anything at all. That means buying before the trade comes out, or buying art from issues you haven't personally read yet, based only on reading whatever the most recent collected of previous issues was. (That, however is a safer 'bet', as one has at least read something on the subject!)

I don't release the art the same day the comic comes out, I like to give collectors a chance to read the book first. But I may just be thinking about how I'd like to know the story before buying the art. More and more, though, I'm coming around to what you've said.

You'll be amused to know that the buyer of the EXTREMITY cover that dropped yesterday told me afterward that not only hadn't he read the issue that the cover was from...he hasn't read any of EXTREMITY at all.

I still have a hard time wrapping my head around that...but have to admit it's way more common that I would have thought.

[Nexus]

2 hours ago, delekkerste said:

I remember in the early days of my OA collecting that Watchmen art was still (relatively) inexpensive, as the prevailing view was that it was Moore's writing, not Gibbons' art, that made it special.*  But, over time, I think people grew to recognize that a piece of WM art is not only what Gibbons put on the board, but also incorporates Moore's genius/input.  I also think that people grew to appreciate Gibbons' contribution to the series; his style was really bang-on perfect for it IMO.  I suspect if he had subsequently had a long stint on a major superhero title post-WM (instead of a Supes issue here, some British comics there, etc.) that his non-WM art probably would be more in demand these days.   

Of course there is a nostalgia component to buying WM and DKR art...but, I think there's also the historical significance of the two series and the prestige that comes with owning pieces from them.  One can buy Rob Liefeld art out of nostalgia (not saying there's anything wrong with that at all) and one can buy DKR art out of nostalgia, but, only one of those purchases is going to add gravitas to your collection. 

I totally agree that writing is what determines classics over the long-term (not that artists, in transforming that to visuals, can't play a significant role in the visual language and storytelling, of course).  Todd McFarlane ASM art might always be in-demand on the strength of the art, but, no one in their right mind would call ASM #298-328 a must-read classic run on the strength of the largely forgettable writing (and that goes double for the McSpidey series).  When it comes to Batman, it's the strength of the writing that will keep DKR and Year One so revered IMO.  

 

* Definitely should have seen it coming that people would eventually just clamor to own a piece of Watchmen! 

+1.

Moore either chose his collaborators well, or he got really, really lucky. Gibbons was the perfect partner for WM. Also, I wouldn't point to the market value of his art to mean anything about his art. Let's be honest...fanboys can be guilty of some pretty questionable taste, especially when you add nostalgia into the mix (and I'll include myself there, as well).

I've often compared WM to CITIZEN KANE. A surface viewing of CK would be that it's a thinly-viewed biopic of William Randolph Hearst (similar to how some see WM as just a glorified superhero story). But dig a little deeper...and wow. CK is a work of absolute genius. Not everyone will appreciate that, it may still put many to sleep. But there is no denying Welles was an auteur and CK a masterpiece. Watch it with commentary. Similarly, check out any of the sites that annotate WM. There's a new book that's out, WATCHMEN ANNOTATED, which I haven't gotten yet, but I'm sure would demonstrate what makes WM an all-timer, and unlikely to ever be matched again.

Also re: "gravitas"...that sounds ridiculous, but I believe it. Not that buying DKR necessarily adds gravitas, but I suspect there are collectors who add certain pieces to their collection in a bid for respectability amongst their peers. Particularly BSDs.

Lastly...we've debated the point before, but I'll contend that WM was never inexpensive. At least not here in the US. It may have been cheap when it was first sold out of Comics Showcase in London, but once it got to the US, it was getting marked up quite a bit. One long-time collector recalled to me how he paid Scott Dunbier $1K for a page back in 1991. To put that into context, he could have gotten a Wrightson Frankenstein plate for the same amount.

[comix4fun]

6 minutes ago, Nexus said:

 

Lastly...we've debated the point before, but I'll contend that WM was never inexpensive. At least not here in the US. It may have been cheap when it was first sold out of Comics Showcase in London, but once it got to the US, it was getting marked up quite a bit. One long-time collector recalled to me how he paid Scott Dunbier $1K for a page back in 1991. To put that into context, he could have gotten a Wrightson Frankenstein plate for the same amount.

Or 4-5 choice Neal Adams Batman pages. 

[delekkerste]

15 minutes ago, Nexus said:

Lastly...we've debated the point before, but I'll contend that WM was never inexpensive. At least not here in the US. It may have been cheap when it was first sold out of Comics Showcase in London, but once it got to the US, it was getting marked up quite a bit. One long-time collector recalled to me how he paid Scott Dunbier $1K for a page back in 1991. To put that into context, he could have gotten a Wrightson Frankenstein plate for the same amount.

I actually manually recorded a lot of OA sales in the 2003-2006 period and have 4 public Watchmen page data points between $1.9K and $3.9K (averaging low $3Ks) from during this period (plus one outlier in the $7Ks, because...Hari   OK, that was a great page).  Which, upon further reflection, may not be as cheap as I recall, though, not crazy either.  I suspect that $1K page in 1991 must have been a pretty great page to have fetched that price.

Edited January 11, 2018 by delekkerste

[Nexus]

2 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I think people buy Preacher art because of the importance of the comic, not because Steve Dillon's art was particularly special (although I personally really like it). He clearly was perfectly suited to the material, but its not special. Like Gibbons, nobody is clamoring for Dillon art outside of Preacher (except maybe some Judge Dredd stuff).

I think the next "TDKR" may never come, as far as comic books go. There is nothing today that gets the same kind of mass audience that book got. The only thing close would be The Waking Dead, but that's a long-running saga, with a ton of art available. TDKR art is valuable in large part because there is not very much art available. Supply and Demand. If you want TWD art, it's easy to come by. Now, "key" pages are more expensive, obviously. But, you will never get the average per page price for TDKR. If Saga art were available, it would also probably be in this category.

I think what would have to happen is that a fairly popular (by today's standards) LIMITED RUN independent comic book becomes a pop culture phenomenon (a la the TMNJ), and gets turned into a big movie franchise, with TV spin offs, etc. I say "limited run" as opposed to ongoing (like TWD) because that original limited run's art would become the most valuable art of the property. It would, inevitably, be sequelized as a comic book, and create a larger universe. But, that initial run would be special. Hell Boy had a shot at that too.

And, had the initial TMNT run been a 6 issue limited series, that may qualify.

The odds of there being another DKR are low. But if it does happen, we won't know UNTIL it happens. Chasing the "next DKR" in the meantime is a fool's errand.

I compare WALKING DEAD to BA/CA X-MEN. Both with long, sustained runs as fan favorites. There is certainly a lot of art for both, but fans will ultimately pick/choose what they deem most important. For X-MEN, it's Claremont/Byrne, with DEATH OF PHOENIX as the high-water mark. For WD, I believe it will be the first 48 issues. Because those early issues made the most impact. And also because those first 48 issues make up the Compendium, which is the most-sold, highest print run, and thus, most widely-read  WD publication of them all. That's what people will have nostalgia for down the road.

And, most importantly, young fans read WD. Teens ate it up. WD trade sales are starting to slip from their previous heights in part, I believe, because that core audience is starting to age out. Not good news in the short term. But longer term, there's a solid chance WD will be remembered fondly, and nostalgia will kick in. What percentage, and to what degree, remains to be seen. But I believe WD at least has a chance, and certainly a better chance than properties whose primary audience is 40-and-over.

 

[RabidFerret]

32 minutes ago, Nexus said:

I don't release the art the same day the comic comes out, I like to give collectors a chance to read the book first. But I may just be thinking about how I'd like to know the story before buying the art. More and more, though, I'm coming around to what you've said.

You'll be amused to know that the buyer of the EXTREMITY cover that dropped yesterday told me afterward that not only hadn't he read the issue that the cover was from...he hasn't read any of EXTREMITY at all.

I still have a hard time wrapping my head around that...but have to admit it's way more common that I would have thought.

This is the kind of news that scares me a bit. This sounds like textbook speculation to me. The mindset of acquiring something they don't read, don't know the characters, are not invested in on a personal level, but still buy.

It's always impressive how quickly you sell out of art, but it raises a concern in my mind about the motives behind such speed. It has a beanie baby vibe to it when art sells out as fast as it's listed. Gotta get it before someone else does. Don't wanna miss out on the potential payday.

Speculation is clearly in the DNA of comics.

[PhilipB2k17]

6 minutes ago, RabidFerret said:

This is the kind of news that scares me a bit. This sounds like textbook speculation to me. The mindset of acquiring something they don't read, don't know the characters, are not invested in on a personal level, but still buy.

It's always impressive how quickly you sell out of art, but it raises a concern in my mind about the motives behind such speed. It has a beanie baby vibe to it when art sells out as fast as it's listed. Gotta get it before someone else does. Don't wanna miss out on the potential payday.

Speculation is clearly in the DNA of comics.

Yeah. I looked at the Extremity art on Felix's site. I liked a lot of it. But, I had not read any of it yet. I wanted to know what I was looking at. Some of the most dynamic pages were not as  important - overall - to the story arc. I read the entirety of the series, and THEN selected art from it I wanted. That way, knew what the page I was buying meant to the story and the characters, and not just as a piece of art. Now, I also bought the pages I liked from an artistic standpoint too. Don't misunderstand me.

[J.Sid]

2 hours ago, comix4fun said:

I just mean it's not a one to one choice. 

Most people would probably choose the Ditko, as the cornerstone of the hobby/title/character/icon that it represents. That demand is where the price difference is created. 

So you're on the right track in thinking a good Ditko Spidey is more desirable than a good Miller DKR page. The market agrees. 

... maybe.

We've seen some good DK pages come to auction, but most of the best ones have yet to surface. We've recently seen a couple of A+ Ditko ASM  crack the $100k mark (the recent Goblin and Doc Ock action pages).  I'm not so sure I couldn't find you a few DK pages that would do the same.