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New podcast/video from Felix Comic Art (UPDATED 1/3/17!)
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1,647 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, J.Sid said:

... maybe.

We've seen some good DK pages come to auction, but most of the best ones have yet to surface. We've recently seen a couple of A+ Ditko ASM  crack the $100k mark (the recent Goblin and Doc Ock action pages).  I'm not so sure I couldn't find you a few DK pages that would do the same. 

Well, he's talking "GOOD". He wasn't really saying "BEST".

The "GOOD" Ditko Panels are in the $60's-70's. The "GOOD" Miller DKR seems to be sitting about 1/2 that.

Now the "BEST" might close the gap, but he was talking "GOOD". 

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41 minutes ago, RabidFerret said:

This is the kind of news that scares me a bit. This sounds like textbook speculation to me. The mindset of acquiring something they don't read, don't know the characters, are not invested in on a personal level, but still buy.

It's always impressive how quickly you sell out of art, but it raises a concern in my mind about the motives behind such speed. It has a beanie baby vibe to it when art sells out as fast as it's listed. Gotta get it before someone else does. Don't wanna miss out on the potential payday.

Speculation is clearly in the DNA of comics.

No question, speculation happens in our hobby. It happens in new art. That's what drives the hunt for the "next DKR".

Now...to what degree is there speculation with what I sell? No idea. But I don't think it's high. I think that speculators tend to avoid me/my site, since most know I'm anti-speculation. I'd rather people not buy from us at all, than buy for speculation.

What I do know is that the art being bought isn't getting flipped, at least not immediately. Not individual pieces, and not complete issues. This may be surprising to some; there's the assumption that complete issues are cheaper to buy as a whole, with some discount built in. Thus, an opportunity for arbitrage. But that's not the case here at all. There is NO discount. The cost of the complete issue is the aggregate cost of the individual pages. There's no room for profit. Yet, collectors are still buying. I sold almost 30 complete issues last year (about 60 overall). To the best of my knowledge, not a single one has been broken up yet.

So I tend to think collectors are buying because they simply like the art. It's not just #1 issues that are selling complete. Almost all the complete issues sold are later issues, with scenes/moments that the buyer just likes. Also, the Tradd SUICIDE SQUAD issue is, again, UNPUBLISHED. That generally means zero upside. Yet, fans still wanted pages.

I'm sure the art I've sold will get resold at some point. But the reason it was bought from me, does not appear to be motivated by speculation.

 

(Adding this edit: Although the person who bought the EXTREMITY cover hadn't read the book yet, he is a fan of Daniel's art. And he likes Daniel personally. Despite not having read the book yet (he's a trade-waiter), he understood Daniel's art well enough that he recognized immediately why this was an "important" cover. And it IS actually Daniel's favorite cover of the run. So hopefully this is a more complete picture of why this happened.)

Edited by Nexus
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2 minutes ago, Nexus said:

No question, speculation happens in our hobby. It happens in new art. That's what drives the hunt for the "next DKR".

Now...to what degree is there speculation with what I sell? No idea. But I don't think it's high. I think that speculators tend to avoid me/my site, since most know I'm anti-speculation. I'd rather people not buy from us at all, than buy for speculation.

What I do know is that the art being bought isn't getting flipped, at least not immediately. Not individual pieces, and not complete issues. This may be surprising to some; there's the assumption that complete issues are cheaper to buy as a whole, with some discount built in. Thus, an opportunity for arbitrage. But that's not the case here at all. There is NO discount. The cost of the complete issue is the aggregate cost of the individual pages. There's no room for profit. Yet, collectors are still buying. I sold almost 30 complete issues last year (about 60 overall). To the best of my knowledge, not a single one has been broken up yet.

So I tend to think collectors are buying because they simply like the art. It's not just #1 issues that are selling complete. Almost all the complete issues sold are later issues, with scenes/moments that the buyer just likes. Also, the Tradd SUICIDE SQUAD issue is, again, UNPUBLISHED. That generally means zero upside. Yet, fans still wanted pages.

I'm sure the art I've sold will get resold at some point. But the reason it was bought from me, does not appear to be speculation.

I want to play devil's advocate a little here...

First and foremost, you're a huge DKR fan, which means your podcasts often reference that series and have guests that talk about it quite often. You do a good job of saying "only buy what you love and don't invest", but at the same time, a common thread is about a book where every page is 5-6 figures these days. Some people just see dollar signs no matter how much you push buying for love.

Second, if the art isn't being flipped at all, that may actually support the notion that people are in it for speculation.

Most artists and books that come onto the market sell the same way - the best pages are picked through, the weak ones linger. Inevitably a percentage of things that sold early on resurface months later when people realize they overspent, didn't like what they bought, find a better example, etc. We've talked a lot about White Knight on these boards, and while the art is not selling out, we've already seen pieces relisted for sale on eBay and dealer sites.

Yet if most of the art you sell isn't resurfacing, even in small doses, it makes me curious. There are plenty of investors who buy art, put the date they bought it on it, and throw it into a bin and don't look at it until 10 years have passed. They intentionally buffer how soon they let it return to the market.

And if that's a buyer's mindset, it seems like buying complete issues is the most cost effective investment vehicle since you don't need to worry about whether you picked the right pages to invest in.

 

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no disrespect meant, but I would think that if you were an 'investor', buying a full issue of extremity wouldn't be the first way I would think an investor would place 10k.  to me it points that these are going to collectors.

Edited by eewwnuk
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1 minute ago, eewwnuk said:

no disrespect meant, but I would think that if you were an 'investor', buying a full issue of extremity wouldn't be the first way I would think an investor would place 10k. 

I wasn't talking any specific book, just an investing mindset in general. There are plenty of complete books that could be had for a fraction of that.

And I'd think it would depend a great deal on how much money you have and how much confidence you have in the book.

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1 minute ago, RabidFerret said:

I want to play devil's advocate a little here...

First and foremost, you're a huge DKR fan, which means your podcasts often reference that series and have guests that talk about it quite often. You do a good job of saying "only buy what you love and don't invest", but at the same time, a common thread is about a book where every page is 5-6 figures these days. Some people just see dollar signs no matter how much you push buying for love.

First off...I'm a huge DKR fan, obviously. But I really only mention it on the podcast as much as I do because it's come to drive certain people crazy. I gotta keep myself amused, at the very least.

So when I talk about DKR, I'm not advocating for its value or its potential value. Actually, I'm quite agnostic about that, if not downright pessimistic. I suppose people hear what they want to hear, but I don't believe I've ever pushed people to buy DKR for any reason, including love.

7 minutes ago, RabidFerret said:

Second, if the art isn't being flipped at all, that may actually support the notion that people are in it for speculation.

Much as people will hear what they want to hear, they will believe what they want to believe. But in the end, your motives are your own; they don't necessarily transfer to anyone/everyone else.

7 minutes ago, RabidFerret said:

Most artists and books that come onto the market sell the same way - the best pages are picked through, the weak ones linger. Inevitably a percentage of things that sold early on resurface months later when people realize they overspent, didn't like what they bought, find a better example, etc. We've talked a lot about White Knight on these boards, and while the art is not selling out, we've already seen pieces relisted for sale on eBay and dealer sites.

It would seem, if WHITE KNIGHT art is already getting flipped, then it was bought for speculation.

11 minutes ago, RabidFerret said:

Yet if most of the art you sell isn't resurfacing, even in small doses, it makes me curious. There are plenty of investors who buy art, put the date they bought it on it, and throw it into a bin and don't look at it until 10 years have passed. They intentionally buffer how soon they let it return to the market.

And if that's a buyer's mindset, it seems like buying complete issues is the most cost effective investment vehicle since you don't need to worry about whether you picked the right pages to invest in.

So what are the "right" pages to invest in? Traditionally in this hobby, they're pages from #1 issues or first appearances of characters. Again, the vast majority of complete issues I've sold, are from random later issues. Does that sound like an "investment"?

Maybe the makeup of the audience will change. But for now, I do believe that fans are buying simply because they like the art/artist/title. This is a different crowd than who we interact with on the boards. They don't follow the hobby at large. Many don't bother with CAF. Most have no clue about the overall market...nor do they care. They care more about following artists on social media. Their desire to own art derives from that, not for what something similar is worth or may be worth. And if they can afford it, they buy it.

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16 hours ago, NinjaSealed said:

Price wise this is exactly the opposite in the long term. Nostalgia/hype fade with time, but historical importance is forever. 

I’d say hype and nostalgia work differently - former is forward looking and and the latter is backward looking. So I wouldn’t put the two together when considering the impact of nostalgia v appreciation of a classic.

What I was saying is that appreciation of a older classic books comes for cultural education, which is a logical and rational response. This appreciation is a long lasting thing. But people generally don’t go bananas over something when they’re coming from a logical place.   

Nostalgia is something that fades or can stay dormant and then can get triggered suddenly, maybe a death in the family, the smell of waffles mom used to make, anything.  And once it’s triggered, it is an emotional reaction that can make people irrational and pay stupid money in a way that and educated appreciation of history won’t.

16 hours ago, delekkerste said:

I think you're underestimating the shared culture/history/tradition aspect of this hobby vs. the power of nostalgia.  It's not like this pivot to things that Millennials like didn't happen in its own way with Gen X as well - we decided that, by and large, we preferred our comics grim & gritty and more serious, and that's what we got starting in the second half of the '80s.  And yet, it's not like '80s kids who became serious comic book & comic art collectors eschewed the lighter fare that we got in the Silver Age - far from it.  In fact, most of the big Silver Age collectors nowadays are those who grew up in the '70s and '80s and didn't even necessarily grow up with the material when it first came out!  That appreciation is all from the shared culture/history/tradition part of these hobbies, as well as just appreciating the stories/art for themselves (there are even some in the hobby who - quelle horreur! - just collect things that look nice to them! :eek: )

 

I agree that DKR is higher (possibly highest) in the hierarchy of Batman books/stories, and it and the art from it will/should remain so thirty years down the line.

But, as you yourself have noted, the amount of consumable entertainment available now is significantly more than it was in the 70s and 80s. And it’s only going to increase in the next 30 years (barrring unforeseen circumstances). With so much more things to draw attention, I think that the impact of the cultural appreciation of a mere thing like a graphic novel like DKR on someone in 2048 will be a lot more muted than the impact that silver age Kirby Ditko comics had on 70s and 80s kids who only had a handful of TV channels to distact them. 

As I tried to say above, I think cultural appreciation comes from a place of logic and rationality.  That probably makes someone pay maybe 20–50% above FMV.  Someone who appreciates DKR 30 years from now will probably appreciate many other classic artists and stories as well, and will want and need money for art from those too. So will be unlikely to pay crazy crazy money for just DKR.

However, nostalgia is an emotional response that makes people pay stupid money or whatever it takes.  

As to how nostalia for something like Court of Owls will play out 30 years from now, it’s more difficult to predict.  But the thing that’s more clear is that whilst there will be a lesser pool for people to be nostalgic about it given the decline in readership since the 80s, there will also be the same lesser pool of people to be appreciative of DKR 30 years from now. 

Again, whilst I agree that DKR will always remain higher that Court of Owls as a story, I do feel that overall the price disparity for the art between the two will lessen in the decades to come. 

 

Edited by Skizz
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2 hours ago, Nexus said:

Lastly...we've debated the point before, but I'll contend that WM was never inexpensive. At least not here in the US.

Correct. At various times I  attempted to strategically diversify out of my own nostalgic vacuum and buy 'right', a solid WM page was always one of those that I didn't personally connect to but understand was nice ballast (to say the least) against a fair amount of the garbage I usually collect that may not hold up over time (2nd run Cockrum X-Men anyone?) And so, when I was ready to throw $1k in that direction, they were $2k. And when I was ready to go "as much as $3k" they were 5k-10k. And then I just moved on, because 5k-10k+ is much more than you should ever spend on something speculatively that you yourself do not "get". Never cheap. And never cheap compared to opportunity cost, because that 1k in 1991 was also, iirc, where good Ditko ASM pages were too.

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2 hours ago, Nexus said:

Thanks for the plug, Nelson!(thumbsu

And you ain't kidding. Tradd did an issue of SUICIDE SQUAD for DC in 2016. It's been in publishing limbo ever since. He decided to sell the art, since there was no discernible movement with it seeing print.

So...the art is unpublished. No one's even seen it. No one knew who the writer was. That's a lot going against it.

We still sold out every single page. For the same prices that we would have asked if it was published. You can see the art here:

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?Details=1&ArtistId=587&Mag=SUICIDE+SQUAD

Anyway...voudou is right. For many collectors, they don't need to have read the comic before buying the art. More on that in a sec...

 

Problem with 99% of the new art is there is no dialog or balloons on the artwork. So that lessens the writing aspect. I rarely buy any new interior artwork since it lacks dialog. The story is important to me. Many times the artist does nice flashy art and panels but the story is lost if the characters have a generic look out of costume to the artist is a poor story teller. Another DKR has a low probability of happening with new art missing dialog. Half the story can keep some from being interested in the art

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40 minutes ago, Nexus said:

Maybe the makeup of the audience will change. But for now, I do believe that fans are buying simply because they like the art/artist/title. This is a different crowd than who we interact with on the boards. They don't follow the hobby at large. Many don't bother with CAF. Most have no clue about the overall market...nor do they care. They care more about following artists on social media. Their desire to own art derives from that, not for what something similar is worth or may be worth. And if they can afford it, they buy it.

To follow up on this point...we sell a lot of commissions. Everyone knows that commissions are rarely worth more than what they originally cost. No one gets commissions thinking they'll be able to profit from them later. NO speculator is getting commissions. And yet...we sell a lot of commissions.

And not just any commissions, either. We have an "Artist's Choice" option available. That is, the artist chooses what he/she will draw. It could be anything. It's never anything safe or obvious (i.e. superhero, cheesecake, etc.). A lot of collectors have gone for this option, as well. They simply love the artist and their art!

The biggest commission I've managed, is a custom 26-page fan comic drawn by Geoff Shaw. I'll post scans soon. The cost for this was MORE than what a PUBLISHED Geoff Shaw complete issue would run! And Geoff has been working on hot books! Obviously, this guy is not a speculator, either.

At some point, tastes will change. Maybe these collectors will get bored. They'll move on. The art will re-enter the market. But again, I just don't see speculation as the reason they've been buying the art from us.

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1 hour ago, Nexus said:

Now...to what degree is there speculation with what I sell? No idea. But I don't think it's high. I think that speculators tend to avoid me/my site, since most know I'm anti-speculation. I'd rather people not buy from us at all, than buy for speculation...

...So I tend to think collectors are buying because they simply like the art.

To be fair, some of the statements in your newsletters are highly speculative. I.e.:

Quote
  • Daniel has set himself on the path of becoming a complete comics creator, writing and drawing his own stories. As anyone who has read EXTREMITY can attest, he is excelling at both. The next Frank Miller may actually have nothing to do with Batman comics.
  • And yes, Tradd's amazing art from the landmark VENOM #150 is headlining the show. VENOM #150 may go down as this generation's DOCTOR STRANGE #55, an artist's showcase and calling card for Tradd the way it was for Michael Golden. That's right, I'm saying Tradd may be a gamechanger like Michael Golden!
  • So long as Thanos remains a fan-favorite villain, “Thanos Wins” is destined to live on as an evergreen trade when this six-issue event is completed. It should be to Thanos what “Year One” is to Batman and “Born Again” is to Daredevil.
  • THOR #701 may very well represent peak Harren (to date). James is already hugely influential amongst his peers, and this issue only further establishes his status as a generational talent. THOR #701 will be studied for years to come.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think you have to inject a bit of that as a rep – I'd go as far to say it's even your responsibility. But it can't be argued there's no speculative comments surrounding your artists and their art – which may contribute [in part] – to some of their sales. I know it's driven a good friend of mine to purchase from you on at least one occasion.

And to clarify: I believe your art sells so fast primarily because you price fairly and are a huge asset to the hobby, both in terms of moderating discussion, attracting new collectors, and conceptualizing unique ideas. You provide content which leads back to you. My hat's off to you, and I am both thankful and appreciative of you!

Edited by Mr. Machismo
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If i was speculating (i'm not) i'd be investing in art from projects that have the potential to become household names w/o much recognition today.  I'd be looking for what's being optioned into new shows.

 

https://www.theverge.com/2016/1/13/10754200/best-upcoming-book-comic-adaptations-descender-blackfish-nimona

 

http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/18-comic-book-movies-development-you-might-not-know-about

 

Not the newest articles, but i wasn't looking all too hard either.

I have read some of the books on those lists and there are some good stories that i think could be adapted to another medium really well.

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48 minutes ago, Nexus said:

First off...I'm a huge DKR fan, obviously. But I really only mention it on the podcast as much as I do because it's come to drive certain people crazy. I gotta keep myself amused, at the very least.

:) 

48 minutes ago, Nexus said:

So when I talk about DKR, I'm not advocating for its value or its potential value. Actually, I'm quite agnostic about that, if not downright pessimistic. I suppose people hear what they want to hear, but I don't believe I've ever pushed people to buy DKR for any reason, including love.

I've never heard you push it as an investment and I wasn't trying to suggest you did.

I was simply mentioning the level of raised awareness that comes from high priced art being brought up consistently in discussions, and the likely effect that has on people new to the hobby.

48 minutes ago, Nexus said:

It would seem, if WHITE KNIGHT art is already getting flipped, then it was bought for speculation.

My point was that most art circulates early on, even when it was not bought for speculation, simply due to life's unexpected twists - a change of interest, a better acquisition, financial problems, etc.

The art that vanishes and never changes hands seems to be defying the norm.

48 minutes ago, Nexus said:

So what are the "right" pages to invest in? Traditionally in this hobby, they're pages from #1 issues or first appearances of characters. Again, the vast majority of complete issues I've sold, are from random later issues. Does that sound like an "investment"?

I don't invest in art, so I can't say what the right pages are.

But on a simple level, Collecting 101, the parts are worth more than the whole. I'm not aware of any book that was worth more complete than it was in pieces.

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2 hours ago, comix4fun said:

Well, he's talking "GOOD". He wasn't really saying "BEST".

The "GOOD" Ditko Panels are in the $60's-70's. The "GOOD" Miller DKR seems to be sitting about 1/2 that.

Now the "BEST" might close the gap, but he was talking "GOOD". 

If I recall, Glen Gold said that in his opinion, the Doc Oc vs Spidey page was one of the 6 best Ditko Spidey fight pages. It got about $100k? That's well under the best prices for the top TDKR pages.

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1 minute ago, Mr. Machismo said:

To be fair, some of the statements in your newsletters are highly speculative. I.e.:

Don't get me wrong, I think you have to inject a bit of that as a rep – I'd go as far to say it's even your responsibility. But it can't be argued there's no speculative comments surrounding your artists and their art – which may contribute [in part] – to some of their sales. I know it has for a good friend of mine.

And to clarify: I believe your art sells so fast primarily because you price fairly and are a huge asset to the hobby, both in terms of moderating discussion, attracting new collectors, and conceptualizing unique ideas. You provide content which leads back to you. My hat's off to you, and I am both thankful and appreciate of you!

I'm glad you brought this up. When I mention these things, it's from the perspective of a fan. It's from the perspective of someone who has been a collector for 40 years. It's from the perspective of someone who really appreciates good comic art. It's in no way encouraging anyone to buy for value.

Let's go over these:

- If anyone's going to be the "next Frank Miller", it won't be because they worked on a Batman comic. It will be because they kick at writing and drawing their own work. Let's not forget, Frank Miller could actually write. Does this mean DWJ's art will be worth what Frank Miller's art is now worth? NO. It just means he's a badass comics creator.

- How many of you even get the DOCTOR STRANGE #55 reference? Or care about Michael Golden? This is just how *I* see it. Michael Golden is an artist's artist. He does not have the name, or market, value of an Art Adams or a Todd McFarlane. I'm not saying Tradd's going to be "hot". Just respected by his peers.

- Marvel is so happy with THANOS WINS, that both Donny and Geoff are being treated very well. There's not much I can say about this, other than all will be revealed in time. So yes, THANOS WINS is destined to be a go-to story for Thanos fans...much like BORN AGAIN and YEAR ONE. I mentioned those specifically, because like TW, they were inserted into a regular run, they weren't standalones. But they proved to be defining stories.

- This one is easy. James is already hugely influential to younger artists. He already has countless imitators. He IS a generational talent.

Now, am I excited by these guys? Am I enthusiastic about their art? YES. Of course. I wouldn't be doing this otherwise. But I have also been very, very vocal about "investment", speculation, values, etc., throughout the years. I don't know how much more I can stress that. If the art was worth nothing, I'd still be a fan of Frank Miller, DOCTOR STRANGE #55, BORN AGAIN, YEAR ONE, etc. I loved that stuff before I even knew about OA.

 

(I've also said that "all art started off as modern art". Some might take that to mean get it now while it's cheap. NO. It means get it now WHILE YOU CAN. Circling back to our earlier discussion, I'd LOVE to have been able to buy AMERICAN FLAGG!, GRENDEL, MAGE, NEXUS, BADGER, JON SABLE, etc. covers when they were first sold. But I wasn't in this hobby when the opportunity was there. We know, intellectually, that they will lose value over time. But I still wish I had them, terrible "investments" or not.)

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1 hour ago, RabidFerret said:

I want to play devil's advocate a little here...

First and foremost, you're a huge DKR fan, which means your podcasts often reference that series and have guests that talk about it quite often. You do a good job of saying "only buy what you love and don't invest", but at the same time, a common thread is about a book where every page is 5-6 figures these days. Some people just see dollar signs no matter how much you push buying for love.

Second, if the art isn't being flipped at all, that may actually support the notion that people are in it for speculation.

Most artists and books that come onto the market sell the same way - the best pages are picked through, the weak ones linger. Inevitably a percentage of things that sold early on resurface months later when people realize they overspent, didn't like what they bought, find a better example, etc. We've talked a lot about White Knight on these boards, and while the art is not selling out, we've already seen pieces relisted for sale on eBay and dealer sites.

Yet if most of the art you sell isn't resurfacing, even in small doses, it makes me curious. There are plenty of investors who buy art, put the date they bought it on it, and throw it into a bin and don't look at it until 10 years have passed. They intentionally buffer how soon they let it return to the market.

And if that's a buyer's mindset, it seems like buying complete issues is the most cost effective investment vehicle since you don't need to worry about whether you picked the right pages to invest in.

 

I've seen some Extremity art go up on the secondary market already. It's starting to be re-sold.

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12 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

If I recall, Glen Gold said that in his opinion, the Doc Oc vs Spidey page was one of the 6 best Ditko Spidey fight pages. It got about $100k? That's well under the best prices for the top TDKR pages.

Panel.

Page.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

If I recall, Glen Gold said that in his opinion, the Doc Oc vs Spidey page was one of the 6 best Ditko Spidey fight pages. It got about $100k? That's well under the best prices for the top TDKR pages.

I'm not sure if I missed part of the conversation but I don't follow.    First of all, the BEST spidey panel pages, to compare to the BEST TDKR pages, would be AF15 pages.    No way does DRK compare.

The very very best would probably be the DKR 1 cover versus the AF15 cover if it existed.    Again, no contest.      Even Mandel's ASM 11(?) cover would blow it out of the water IMO.

Edited by Bronty
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58 minutes ago, vodou said:

Correct. At various times I  attempted to strategically diversify out of my own nostalgic vacuum and buy 'right', a solid WM page was always one of those that I didn't personally connect to but understand was nice ballast (to say the least) against a fair amount of the garbage I usually collect that may not hold up over time (2nd run Cockrum X-Men anyone?) And so, when I was ready to throw $1k in that direction, they were $2k. And when I was ready to go "as much as $3k" they were 5k-10k. And then I just moved on, because 5k-10k+ is much more than you should ever spend on something speculatively that you yourself do not "get". Never cheap. And never cheap compared to opportunity cost, because that 1k in 1991 was also, iirc, where good Ditko ASM pages were too.

Yep. Like I said. I'd rather have one of those Ditko spidey pages over a WM page, even though I really like Watchmen.

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