New podcast/video from Felix Comic Art (UPDATED 1/3/17!)
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13 minutes ago, SquareChaos said:

Wait, what? You're not a member of the landed gentry? Do you.... work... for a living?! The Cabal will hear of this.

 

:jokealert:

Sorry to say I am not the guy with the hat that everyone was so chatty about in the other thread! 

God save the queen.

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1 minute ago, Panelfan1 said:

Sorry to say I am not the guy with the hat that everyone was so chatty about in the other thread! 

God save the queen.

Joking aside, I often have the same feeling you described - art with hefty price tags gets tossed around here so often, the only thing that makes sense is a high percentage of wealthy people are active in the hobby, or a bunch of people rode a wave of appreciating art. I tend to believe some of the first, but more of the second. 

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6 hours ago, vodou said:

Another obvious issue can be insurance. First off, taking our fellow previously that may be supporting a family of four on less than 40k/yr...the premium alone on a $1m collection is going to be (using my IIRC on an old CIA rate sheet) 2% or around 20k. Nearly half that dude's pre-tax! 

Obviously insurance rates are going to vary somewhat on location, security, area-specific risks, type of collectible, etc.  And, I'm guessing that the more you bid, the more it's worth, uh, I mean, the more you insure, the greater the rate breaks you receive.  

I'm paying CIA roughly one-quarter of one percent for my annual policy.  It may be a higher rate on a policy of ("only") $1 million, but, I'm guessing that we're talking about an annual premium somewhere in the $3K range, plus or minus $500, not $20K.

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30 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Obviously insurance rates are going to vary somewhat on location, security, area-specific risks, type of collectible, etc.  And, I'm guessing that the more you bid, the more it's worth, uh, I mean, the more you insure, the greater the rate breaks you receive.  

I'm paying CIA roughly one-quarter of one percent for my annual policy.  It may be a higher rate on a policy of ("only") $1 million, but, I'm guessing that we're talking about an annual premium somewhere in the $3K range, plus or minus $500, not $20K.

My policy with collect insure costs about the same. I may have to file a claim soon so we will see how that goes....

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Old time OA collectors are like a couple that bought a townhome in the Mission district of San Francisco in the 1970's, and is now sitting on a property value gold mine.

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5 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Old time OA collectors are like a couple that bought a townhome in the Mission district of San Francisco in the 1970's, and is now sitting on a property value gold mine.

But if they sell and want something similar will cost about the same either house or OA.

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8 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Old time OA collectors are like a couple that bought a townhome in the Mission district of San Francisco in the 1970's, and is now sitting on a property value gold mine.

 

2 hours ago, Brian Peck said:

But if they sell and want something similar will cost about the same either house or OA.

Exactly. The only out is moving to TX or FL and banking the difference. And that's how I ended up in fine art ;)

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12 hours ago, Brian Peck said:

But if they sell and want something similar will cost about the same either house or OA.

Yes. But they will have the cash or trade to get the new house/OA

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1 hour ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Yes. But they will have the cash or trade to get the new house/OA

This goes back to a previous discussion - how are ongoing and continuous near top and topping, not to mention higher high final numbers being funded?

1. old comic art money being rotated out and right back in (no net new money in)

2. comic collectors selling down that stuff and rotating into comic art (no net new money in, I'd argue though some would disagree)

3. newly minted collectors coming from the outside with deep pockets and expensive tastes

IIRC you lean toward #3 being the predominant force in setting prices, while I think it's mostly #1 and #2, with #3 being a minority (and not 49% either!) but still in there.

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One thing to comsider is that you might need new collectors to buy what the old collectors are selling. Not just high end stuff - but anything and everything.  

I wonder if @Nexus or @romitaman could chime in - how many of your customers are new to the hobby? Or is it the same folks over and over?  

Personally - I became active in the hobby about 4 years ago. I see new folks on CAF all the time.  Yes we all naturally collected comics at some point in the past - but that past could be a while back.

Also for many the path into collecting art started with convention sketches. As it did for me.  That is new art - not recycled art - and therefore possible new money into the hobby.  

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1 hour ago, vodou said:

This goes back to a previous discussion - how are ongoing and continuous near top and topping, not to mention higher high final numbers being funded?

1. old comic art money being rotated out and right back in (no net new money in)

2. comic collectors selling down that stuff and rotating into comic art (no net new money in, I'd argue though some would disagree)

3. newly minted collectors coming from the outside with deep pockets and expensive tastes

IIRC you lean toward #3 being the predominant force in setting prices, while I think it's mostly #1 and #2, with #3 being a minority (and not 49% either!) but still in there.

I'd say #2 is definitely new  money in the hobby. Because that's basically me. I wasn't an OA collector (although I had ONE piece I bought many years ago), until a couple of years ago. But I was a comics guy. I now only buy new comics because I am interesting in modern OA, and want to see all the new arts and artists, and enjoy the books.

My whole argument about this hobby is that Gene (and others) are absolutely right about the larger demographic trends. But, this hobby is so small that it only takes a few new big hitters to keep prices propped up. Think of it like Boxing. The overall audience for boxing has dramatically declined. Baseball too. Yet, they keep paying larger and larger prizes, or salaries, and baseball teams become more and more valuable. For baeball, there are only so many major league teams. It only takes a few who want to buy one to keep prices propped up.

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35 minutes ago, Panelfan1 said:

Also for many the path into collecting art started with convention sketches. As it did for me.  That is new art - not recycled art - and therefore possible new money into the hobby.

This is a great point. The sketches and commissions side of OA is very healthy -- perhaps due to the increased social media interactions with artists and the rise of talented, non-published amateurs. This might be the most prominent gateway drug to buying published OA in the future -- replacing the formerly-typical comic collecting convert. They'll read digitally, interact with creators on social media, go to cons (maybe in cosplay), buy a print, then a sketch, then a page from a rep, then a splash, then a cover.

Hopefully, this trend continues. For the hobby to stay healthy, we don't need 10-15 people buying six-figure pieces. We need 10000-15000 people buying 4-figure pieces.

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51 minutes ago, Panelfan1 said:

One thing to comsider is that you might need new collectors to buy what the old collectors are selling. Not just high end stuff - but anything and everything.  

I wonder if @Nexus or @romitaman could chime in - how many of your customers are new to the hobby? Or is it the same folks over and over?  

Personally - I became active in the hobby about 4 years ago. I see new folks on CAF all the time.  Yes we all naturally collected comics at some point in the past - but that past could be a while back.

Also for many the path into collecting art started with convention sketches. As it did for me.  That is new art - not recycled art - and therefore possible new money into the hobby.  

Not to speak for him, but I have a related comment... but I have seen Felix comment on this in the past. I sort of expected that he and other modern reps may have an 80/20 thing going on, where a core group of customers bought 80% of his stock (I know I see a few CAF names over and over again), but if I recall, surprisingly, that wasn't the case. I think he also said he sees a good deal of European buyers. When you're new to the hobby, or from the outside looking in, it seems like this whole house of cards might topple if a few percent of the total 'interested parties' get out, but the more I learn the more surprised I am at the seemingly wider-than-anticipated net of interest.

Keep in mind I'm talking about 'new' art - for the higher dollar pieces from earlier eras, I'm far from an expert, but just as a numbers game it seems far more rickety to me when you consider the cost of entry at current market... that has been discussed very deeply in a number of threads, some of them pretty recent.

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A few random observations (which I've noted in the past, just repeating here for anyone new):

-- Con sketch/commission market has always looked healthy to me since I've been in the hobby. Even during the economic downturn, every Artists Alley at the shows I attended were packed. Lists filled up at ever increasing rates. This surprised me as I assumed this would be the group whose disposable income would get hit hardest. Maybe it did, but it didn't matter...everyone still wanted their sketches. And it's continued to present day. We fill up every list for every artist.

-- I have considered sketches/commissions to be a major entry point to the hobby. Becoming a rep just reaffirms that belief. I've had many, many customers who start off getting commissions from me, who then move on to published pieces.

-- There is new money at all levels of the hobby. Yes, in the vast majority of cases, the major pieces still end up with the usual suspects. But the known BSDs aren't buying everything. In fact, many of them are selling to this new money.

-- New money at that level, from what I've seen, is the same as the established demographic, so long term, same issues exist.

-- There is new money in modern art, as well. Unlike new money in vintage art, modern art new money skews younger. A lot younger. Also, within this group are women and international buyers. I've sent art all over the world, since I started doing this. In the last month, Russia, Africa, Brazil, Middle East, off the top of my head.

-- I don't know how much of this modern crowd will move on to vintage art, whether due to financial ability, or even simply interest. So again, long term for the vintage market, same issues still exist, unfortunately.

To sum up, I believe that so long comics are a thing, there will be some audience, to whatever degree, for original art. That just means that if there are new GREEN LANTERN comics coming out, there will be some readers who will be interested in that art. It does not mean, though, that any of them will pay half a million dollars for GL #76.

 

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9 hours ago, vodou said:

This goes back to a previous discussion - how are ongoing and continuous near top and topping, not to mention higher high final numbers being funded?

1. old comic art money being rotated out and right back in (no net new money in)

2. comic collectors selling down that stuff and rotating into comic art (no net new money in, I'd argue though some would disagree)

3. newly minted collectors coming from the outside with deep pockets and expensive tastes

IIRC you lean toward #3 being the predominant force in setting prices, while I think it's mostly #1 and #2, with #3 being a minority (and not 49% either!) but still in there.

 

7 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I'd say #2 is definitely new  money in the hobby. Because that's basically me. I wasn't an OA collector (although I had ONE piece I bought many years ago), until a couple of years ago. But I was a comics guy. I now only buy new comics because I am interesting in modern OA, and want to see all the new arts and artists, and enjoy the books.

My whole argument about this hobby is that Gene (and others) are absolutely right about the larger demographic trends. But, this hobby is so small that it only takes a few new big hitters to keep prices propped up. Think of it like Boxing. The overall audience for boxing has dramatically declined. Baseball too. Yet, they keep paying larger and larger prizes, or salaries, and baseball teams become more and more valuable. For baeball, there are only so many major league teams. It only takes a few who want to buy one to keep prices propped up.

In case it wasn't clear, let me rephrase: my definition of new money is money that wasn't raised by selling one inflated asset to buy another. New money is new money to not just this hobby (comic art) but all hobbies...so taxable income, an inheritance, investment sale (Schedule D stuff), things like that.

That's why I don't think dumping all your comics to buy art, especially if they're all CGC 9.8 examples, is new money!

The death throes of one hobby giving fuel to the bubble of another isn't growth or anything approaching healthy and something that's long-range sustainable and predictable.

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In case it wasn't clear, let me rephrase: my definition of new money is money that wasn't raised by selling one inflated asset to buy another. New money is new money to not just this hobby (comic art) but all hobbies...so taxable income, an inheritance, investment sale (Schedule D stuff), things like that.

That's why I don't think dumping all your comics to buy art, especially if they're all CGC 9.8 examples, is new money!

The death throes of one hobby giving fuel to the bubble of another isn't growth or anything approaching healthy and something that's long-range sustainable and predictable.

 

-I think your point was clear. Let me give my response this way - even though I sell some stuff to help fund purchases, most of the funds necessarily need to be new money.  Most collectors I meet like to hold on to what they have.  That means one needs to spend new money as the old money is tied up in the existing collection (comics, art, toys,etc ..). 

 

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Happy Holidays from Felix Comic Art! Which means it’s time for our December episode!
 
 
It’s a two parter this month, with Part 1 being a roundtable from Rose City Comic Con 2017. Joining me is recurring guest Andy Robbins, along with returning guests, artists Nick Pitarra and Daniel Warren Johnson. We recap topics from previous episodes, as well as discuss current events in the hobby. And we also reveal the story behind the stolen David Mazzucchelli BORN AGAIN art from the David Mandel episode last year. You don’t want to miss this! This one is, as Nick Pitarra calls it, a spicy episode.
 
Part 2, then, features a visit with David Mandel, and his reaction to the resolution of his BORN AGAIN art saga. We also talk about a variety of other topics, including his thoughts on the explosive George Perez market, sketchbook commissions, and more. Please note, part 2 is an exclusive for our VIP listeners who have been kind enough to leave a review for us on iTunes. If you’ve done so already, check your e-mail for the invite link. Everyone else, leave a review so you don’t miss out on future exclusive content!
 
Sign up for our mailing list at felixcomicart.com. Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Support the show by leaving a rating/review on iTunes. Thanks and enjoy the show!

 

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2 hours ago, Nexus said:
Happy Holidays from Felix Comic Art! Which means it’s time for our December episode!
 
 
It’s a two parter this month, with Part 1 being a roundtable from Rose City Comic Con 2017. Joining me is recurring guest Andy Robbins, along with returning guests, artists Nick Pitarra and Daniel Warren Johnson. We recap topics from previous episodes, as well as discuss current events in the hobby. And we also reveal the story behind the stolen David Mazzucchelli BORN AGAIN art from the David Mandel episode last year. You don’t want to miss this! This one is, as Nick Pitarra calls it, a spicy episode.
 
Part 2, then, features a visit with David Mandel, and his reaction to the resolution of his BORN AGAIN art saga. We also talk about a variety of other topics, including his thoughts on the explosive George Perez market, sketchbook commissions, and more. Please note, part 2 is an exclusive for our VIP listeners who have been kind enough to leave a review for us on iTunes. If you’ve done so already, check your e-mail for the invite link. Everyone else, leave a review so you don’t miss out on future exclusive content!
 
Sign up for our mailing list at felixcomicart.com. Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Support the show by leaving a rating/review on iTunes. Thanks and enjoy the show!

 

Another fun listen Felix.  While not relevant to the more important stuff about what to do with deals that involve stolen art, I'm wondering if the now completed sale of the Electra Saga cover make everyone involved feel whole again?  Have you talked to Dave or Andy since the auction as an addendum?  And while not meaning to stir anything up, I thought the price realized on the Electra was a little light (28k), and I wonder if there's any second guessing going on from that angle.

Keep those pod casts coming!

Scott

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28 minutes ago, stinkininkin said:

Another fun listen Felix.  While not relevant to the more important stuff about what to do with deals that involve stolen art, I'm wondering if the now completed sale of the Electra Saga cover make everyone involved feel whole again?  Have you talked to Dave or Andy since the auction as an addendum?  And while not meaning to stir anything up, I thought the price realized on the Electra was a little light (28k), and I wonder if there's any second guessing going on from that angle.

Keep those pod casts coming!

Scott

I have talked to Andy since the auction. I'll let him talk about the result here if he wishes.

It actually finished at $22K, which is where I had it pegged. Those covers don't have the same cachet they once did, for a variety of reasons, so I wasn't surprised by the result. But it's a good Miller cover no matter what, and a grail for the buyer, so for him at least, it worked out very well!

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41 minutes ago, Nexus said:

I have talked to Andy since the auction. I'll let him talk about the result here if he wishes.

It actually finished at $22K, which is where I had it pegged. Those covers don't have the same cachet they once did, for a variety of reasons, so I wasn't surprised by the result. But it's a good Miller cover no matter what, and a grail for the buyer, so for him at least, it worked out very well!

Apologize for the misinformation on the Electra cover!  I hate putting out wrong information.  Having said that, and when discussing auction prices paid, don't we always include the buyers premium?  That's only number that ultimately matters (to me at least), not the hammer price.  So that said and for the record, the Electra closed at just over 26k with the BP.

And yes, I don't know the reasons why these Electra Saga covers are not as coveted, but I kinda thought it was an A-list piece, and as we have recently established, A-list is gonna A-list.  Unless it doesn't.  hm

Scott

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