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New podcast/video from Felix Comic Art (UPDATED 1/3/17!)
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1,647 posts in this topic

On 12/26/2017 at 5:29 AM, ESeffinga said:

I just anted to say thanks to Felix and DWJ for their fun little giveaway for Christmas day yesterday. It was such a lovely gesture, and congrats to the winners. And if you don't know what I'm talkinga bout, sign up for Felix's mailing list so you don't miss out on fun stuff like this. He and his artists always manage to find fun little ways to expose his artists to new audiences and make things fun and keep their audience engaged as well. Looking forward to seeing what they cook up in the New Year, and what the podcast brings us!

You're welcome! Been busy with work and family visiting, or would have replied sooner! Do plan on doing more art giveaways this year, so hope you try your luck again.

As for the podcast...new episode should be up within a week. We recorded it a couple of months ago, but the timing is good for it to come out now as the discussion is centered around young collectors and modern art...especially modern Batman art.

Beyond that, working on a couple other episodes, one of which is quite different for us. It will be best enjoyed after viewing a documentary on Amazon. More details to come!

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On 12/26/2017 at 4:57 AM, vodou said:

However, I also think that my observation that Felix's inventory can't be flipped (imo) but is roughly break-even at secondary is an extraction more from the artists he reps than his customers. He's retailing at full-retail and his % comes out of the wholesale he passes back to his artists. They get less than 100%.

In the article, the author suggests that collectors buy directly from artists, in order to pay less than they would have to if they bought the same art through a rep. Because the rep adds his markup.

On the surface, that would seem logical. Except as vodou points out, it's also not necessarily true. The markup can be paid by the artist. Also, it seems now more than ever (as evidenced by the two ongoing threads about high-priced modern art), artists can often overvalue their work. Based, in part, on faulty comps and a fear of selling too cheaply. I've been able to help educate my guys on the market, to good result. For both them and collectors.

Not all reps provide the same value, of course. But I do know that based on a good deal of experience, a solid rep makes deals go smoother. Especially when it comes to commissions. And packaging. And timely shipping. Etc.

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Happy 2018! And welcome to the 26th edition of The Felix Comic Art Podcast!

This episode we review Batman art. Specifically modern Batman art. And most specifically, the Greg Capullo BATMAN #1 cover which sold for an astonishing $50K over the summer! Who better to discuss all this than premier modern Batman art collector, Kyle K.! Who also happens to be the buyer of that Greg Capullo cover.

We examine Batman art, old and new, as well as the state of the market and collecting in general. Kyle is one of the young collectors of comic art. If you want an idea of what the future of the hobby may look like, hear what Kyle has to say!

Part two of this edition is an episode of the Double Page Spread Podcast. I was invited on that show by host Wendi Freeman. We talk about art repping, Artist's Editions, emerging young artists, and more! Thanks to Wendi for having me on her show...check out her other episodes!

Sign up for our mailing list at felixcomicart.com. Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Support the show by leaving a rating/review on iTunes. Thanks and enjoy the show!

http://felixcomicart.libsyn.com/
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I'm 19-20 minutes into the podcast, at the point of the discussion about whether there will ever be another DKR.  You hit the nail right on the head, Felix.  I've been saying this for YEARS - with the established characters, the most IMPORTANT, character-defining, genre-changing stories HAVE ALREADY BEEN TOLD.  It's not 1986 anymore, or 1966 for that matter.  I recently read the first couple of Snyder/Capullo trades recently (and have reserved the third one at my local library).  They were really, really good and I enjoyed reading them immensely.  Similarly, I read the Bendis/Maleev and Brubaker/Lark Daredevil runs when they came out or shortly thereafter.  Objectively, they are every bit as good in quality as the Miller/Janson and Miller/Mazzucchelli runs, and I enjoyed reading them both greatly as well.  

But, none of these was the game-changer that DKR or the two Miller runs on Daredevil were.  Every great Batman run that has followed DKR and every great Daredevil run post-1986 has stood on the shoulders of what Miller did in the 1980s.  They may be great stories and great art, even arguably equal to or better in the eyes of a modern audience, but, they are simply NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER going to achieve the level of importance, simply because they came (much) further in those characters' development/lifecycle, because they owe so much to the earlier work, because the audience today is both smaller and older, etc. etc. etc.  That's just the reality of it.  There will never be another DKR when it comes to Batman.  There will never be another Daredevil run as widely revered as Miller's (heck, we had two in the last 15 years that absolutely rivalled Miller's in quality, but, that's just not enough anymore).  

I think maybe it could happen with another character (though, not to the same genre-bending effect as Miller's '80s work had on the medium) - for example, the Brubaker Cap run I think was the greatest of all-time.  But, even though that run was hugely influential on the Marvel movie franchise, as far as comics go, it hasn't had the kind of revolutionary impact that DKR, Watchmen, etc. had on defining everything that has come since then in the medium.  It's simply a different time and place now than 30-35 years ago. 

That's not to say that comics can't still be hugely influential - look no further than The Walking Dead, whose success has bolstered the push of indie comics (in publishing, TV/film, merchandising) in a huge way the past 14 years and has become one of the biggest pop culture sensations of all time.  But, to expect the reinvigoration of 40, 50, 60, 70+ year old characters to bend the genre like DKR did in the mid-'80s...the conditions are no longer there for that to happen.  Heck, even DK2 and DKIII both failed miserably at being the next DKR! 2c 

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55 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

I'm 19-20 minutes into the podcast, at the point of the discussion about whether there will ever be another DKR.  You hit the nail right on the head, Felix.  I've been saying this for YEARS - with the established characters, the most IMPORTANT, character-defining, genre-changing stories HAVE ALREADY BEEN TOLD.  It's not 1986 anymore, or 1966 for that matter.  I recently read the first couple of Snyder/Capullo trades recently (and have reserved the third one at my local library).  They were really, really good and I enjoyed reading them immensely.  Similarly, I read the Bendis/Maleev and Brubaker/Lark Daredevil runs when they came out or shortly thereafter.  Objectively, they are every bit as good in quality as the Miller/Janson and Miller/Mazzucchelli runs, and I enjoyed reading them both greatly as well.  

But, none of these was the game-changer that DKR or the two Miller runs on Daredevil were.  Every great Batman run that has followed DKR and every great Daredevil run post-1986 has stood on the shoulders of what Miller did in the 1980s.  They may be great stories and great art, even arguably equal to or better in the eyes of a modern audience, but, they are simply NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER going to achieve the level of importance, simply because they came (much) further in those characters' development/lifecycle, because they owe so much to the earlier work, because the audience today is both smaller and older, etc. etc. etc.  That's just the reality of it.  There will never be another DKR when it comes to Batman.  There will never be another Daredevil run as widely revered as Miller's (heck, we had two in the last 15 years that absolutely rivalled Miller's in quality, but, that's just not enough anymore).  

I think maybe it could happen with another character (though, not to the same genre-bending effect as Miller's '80s work had on the medium) - for example, the Brubaker Cap run I think was the greatest of all-time.  But, even though that run was hugely influential on the Marvel movie franchise, as far as comics go, it hasn't had the kind of revolutionary impact that DKR, Watchmen, etc. had on defining everything that has come since then in the medium.  It's simply a different time and place now than 30-35 years ago. 

That's not to say that comics can't still be hugely influential - look no further than The Walking Dead, whose success has bolstered the push of indie comics (in publishing, TV/film, merchandising) in a huge way the past 14 years and has become one of the biggest pop culture sensations of all time.  But, to expect the reinvigoration of 40, 50, 60, 70+ year old characters to bend the genre like DKR did in the mid-'80s...the conditions are no longer there for that to happen.  Heck, even DK2 and DKIII both failed miserably at being the next DKR! 2c 

Until the DKR generation is gone from the collecting scene, we will not know for sure whether the Snyder/Capullo run hits that same height. There's too much nostalgia involved. Later generations of collectors do not hold the DKR in the same regard. They are reading it for the first time in Trades. And, most of the time, it is AFTER getting introduced to a more modern run on Batman, and hearing about how "great" the DKR was, etc. Even if they really like it, it won't have that same impact on them as it did when it first came out. It was pretty revolutionary in many ways. But, a lot of what that story did has been copied so much its a cliché.

 

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17 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Until the DKR generation is gone from the collecting scene, we will not know for sure whether the Snyder/Capullo run hits that same height. There's too much nostalgia involved. Later generations of collectors do not hold the DKR in the same regard. They are reading it for the first time in Trades. And, most of the time, it is AFTER getting introduced to a more modern run on Batman, and hearing about how "great" the DKR was, etc. Even if they really like it, it won't have that same impact on them as it did when it first came out. It was pretty revolutionary in many ways. But, a lot of what that story did has been copied so much its a cliché.

 

Somewhat true, except that it's not just about nostalgia.  DKR and Watchmen ushered in a whole new approach to comic book storytelling - grim n'gritty, comics as serious, even intellectual fare.  It literally revolutionized everything that has come after.  Younger folks like Kyle may have fonder memories over time of Court of Owls, but, it will never be held in the same regard by collectors in terms of game-changing, genre and character-defining importance. 

And, frankly, I don't think that will change even as the Gen Xers age out, as people in the hobby retain a shared sense of history and importance.  It's why Action #1s and AF #15s, and T-206 Honus Wagners and '52 Topps Mantles in the baseball card hobby, retain their desirability even though almost no one collecting today was around when those came out.  People don't buy and revere those because of childhood nostalgia.  Instead, anyone who becomes a serious comic collector soon learns about those touchstone books like Action #1, AF #15, Hulk #181, DKR, etc. from before their time that are required to be held in high value and esteem, even if it may not be their own personal bag.   

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2 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Somewhat true, except that it's not just about nostalgia.  DKR and Watchmen ushered in a whole new approach to comic book storytelling - grim n'gritty, comics as serious, even intellectual fare.  It literally revolutionized everything that has come after.  Younger folks like Kyle may have fonder memories over time of Court of Owls, but, it will never be held in the same regard by collectors in terms of game-changing, genre and character-defining importance. 

And, frankly, I don't think that will change even as the Gen Xers age out, as people in the hobby retain a shared sense of history and importance.  It's why Action #1s and AF #15s, and T-206 Honus Wagners and '52 Topps Mantles in the baseball card hobby, retain their desirability even though almost no one collecting today was around when those came out.  People don't buy and revere those because of childhood nostalgia.  Instead, anyone who becomes a serious comic collector soon learns about those touchstone books like Action #1, AF #15, Hulk #181, DKR, etc. from before their time that are required to be held in high value and esteem, even if it may not be their own personal bag.   

Not that facebook is the be-all-end all for comic collectors, but from what I've seen / read in various facebook groups, most modern collectors are pretty "meh" about DRK.

now if those are the same people that in 15 years (assuming they're 18-22 now) are going to be diving into DKR pages at 35k+, that i can't answer.

The only way I can look at it is from my own chair.  I revere GSXM 1 and that whole run through Byrne, it created the X-Men team that I love.  It started 2 years before I was born.  And if it was in my budget, sure I'd love to have a page from it.  But it's further down the list than the stuff I grew up reading, or have read as an adult and enjoy.

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6 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Somewhat true, except that it's not just about nostalgia.  DKR and Watchmen ushered in a whole new approach to comic book storytelling - grim n'gritty, comics as serious, even intellectual fare.  It literally revolutionized everything that has come after.  Younger folks like Kyle may have fonder memories over time of Court of Owls, but, it will never be held in the same regard by collectors in terms of game-changing, genre and character-defining importance. 

And, frankly, I don't think that will change even as the Gen Xers age out, as people in the hobby retain a shared sense of history and importance.  It's why Action #1s and AF #15s, and T-206 Honus Wagners and '52 Topps Mantles in the baseball card hobby, retain their desirability even though almost no one collecting today was around when those came out.  People don't buy and revere those because of childhood nostalgia.  Instead, anyone who becomes a serious comic collector soon learns about those touchstone books like Action #1, AF #15, Hulk #181, DKR, etc. from before their time that are required to be held in high value and esteem, even if it may not be their own personal bag.   

I don't disagree. My point was that later runs MAY become as valuable, or close to as valuable. We just don't know yet. In any case, I do think it's not impossible that DKR doesn't retain its lofty value in 20 years. There's a diference between the first run of a character by the artist who co-created it (i.e. Ditko on Spider-Man) and a later artist who did a revolutionary new version of an old character. Why isn't Neal Adams Batman stuff from the late 60s to early 70's as revered as DKR? It was also, in a sense, revolutionary for its time. But, even the "dark, gritty" Batman part of TDKR is more of a reach back to Batman's earliest days than truly innovative. The art style, and storyline were revolutionary, but that aspect of Batman wasn't really "new." Batman as a character came out of the pulp tradition, which had noir undertones, and was much darker.

 

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Figured this interview would happen eventually. As a collector whose primary focus is BA-MA Batman(I love a good Neal Adams piece just as much as a good Jock) it has been interesting watching the prices of very new stuff skyrocket. It's great and I love it, but it makes a lot of the older stuff, that is much more significant/character defining look like a bargain. When I am deciding between two pieces, all things being equal I always opt for the more vintage piece. I am interested to see what happens to the market over the next decade or so. I expect some stuff to crater(White Knight) while other to do well.

As far as anything being the next Dark Knight, impossible. If we are specifically referring to Batman, the character has been completely defined already. You can tell great stories, but they aren't going to change the character.Heck,  Joker has actually been over-defined. If we are talking about genre defining, there is a possibility something will come along, but I don't know if the base is big enough for it to even occur. The game changers "storytelling" today is on youtube, not sequential art.

Finally I am glad you brought up Leslie Hung as the "new" era. The 40+ male American comic book fans are a very insular bunch. while the American market may never produce another DKR, the Japanese manga creators appear to create a new one every decade. As the Mangaka influence spreads across the world, you may very well be right.

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29 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Somewhat true, except that it's not just about nostalgia.  DKR and Watchmen ushered in a whole new approach to comic book storytelling - grim n'gritty, comics as serious, even intellectual fare.  It literally revolutionized everything that has come after.  Younger folks like Kyle may have fonder memories over time of Court of Owls, but, it will never be held in the same regard by collectors in terms of game-changing, genre and character-defining importance. 

And, frankly, I don't think that will change even as the Gen Xers age out, as people in the hobby retain a shared sense of history and importance.  It's why Action #1s and AF #15s, and T-206 Honus Wagners and '52 Topps Mantles in the baseball card hobby, retain their desirability even though almost no one collecting today was around when those came out.  People don't buy and revere those because of childhood nostalgia.  Instead, anyone who becomes a serious comic collector soon learns about those touchstone books like Action #1, AF #15, Hulk #181, DKR, etc. from before their time that are required to be held in high value and esteem, even if it may not be their own personal bag.   

You've struck upon exactly what made DKR and Watchmen and a few others from that era groundbreaking. It wasn't the characters, or even the stories, it was how the stories were told and how the characters themselves were transformed. 

That transformation of character and writing seeped into the very fabric of comics and altered the path of the last 30+ years in a way that hadn't been felt since. 

That could happen again, but it has nothing to with "Batman" per se. Looking for the "Next-DKR" isn't something I'd dissuade anyone from doing. They're looking for something amazing, fresh, and course-altering for the world of comics. They might just miss it if they are looking at every subsequent Batman story arc for it, when it most likely will be happening somewhere completely unexpected. 

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hi Felix,

another very enjoyable podcast. the bonus podcast with Wendy was fun, and as a woman comic fan - it's great to hear that point of view.

in your interview with her you said you are proud of having a lot of female customers. wondering about that. are they one off buyers who want an example, or are they actual collectors who have or are building a collection?

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while I agree that DKR is historically important, it may not be personally important to some buyers.  similar to the argument that some make around Kirby art and the longevity of that pricing.

as a batman buyer, I personally don't love seeing skyrocketing prices.  i don't believe that skyrocketing prices for this character are insulated to the modern capullo and sgm markets and have seen prices for what i enjoy jump over the years partially influenced with whats going on with these prices.

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1 hour ago, comix4fun said:

You've struck upon exactly what made DKR and Watchmen and a few others from that era groundbreaking. It wasn't the characters, or even the stories, it was how the stories were told and how the characters themselves were transformed. 

That transformation of character and writing seeped into the very fabric of comics and altered the path of the last 30+ years in a way that hadn't been felt since. 

That could happen again, but it has nothing to with "Batman" per se. Looking for the "Next-DKR" isn't something I'd dissuade anyone from doing. They're looking for something amazing, fresh, and course-altering for the world of comics. They might just miss it if they are looking at every subsequent Batman story arc for it, when it most likely will be happening somewhere completely unexpected. 

It was revolutionary....for superhero comics being put out by the Big Two. Underground’s and independents (and non US Comics, especially out of Britain from sources like 2000 a.d. and Manga) had been doing this for years. The gritty, dark, V for Vendetta, to take one example, was published originally in Warrior from 1982 to 1985. TDKR came out in 1986  

I’m waiting for the Batman storyline where he’s starting to mentally degenerate thanks to all of the concussions he’s suffered and develops CTE. 

 

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1 hour ago, eewwnuk said:

while I agree that DKR is historically important, it may not be personally important to some buyers.  similar to the argument that some make around Kirby art and the longevity of that pricing.

 

Kirby is the #1 comic book artist of all time... I view it as a lock to retain value, personally.    2c

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1 hour ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

It was revolutionary....for superhero comics being put out by the Big Two. Underground’s and independents (and non US Comics, especially out of Britain from sources like 2000 a.d. and Manga) had been doing this for years. The gritty, dark, V for Vendetta, to take one example, was published originally in Warrior from 1982 to 1985. TDKR came out in 1986  

I’m waiting for the Batman storyline where he’s starting to mentally degenerate thanks to all of the concussions he’s suffered and develops CTE. 

 

The fact that it was done by the Big Two, and to one of the most recognizable licensed characters in the history of the medium with such a long as established (expected) history of behavior, is what made it so revolutionary. 

Starting with a character that's dark and gritty from day one, while entertaining, doesn't alter the terra firma of the hobby the way taking an established icon and turning his world upside down does. 

 

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49 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

The fact that it was done by the Big Two, and to one of the most recognizable licensed characters in the history of the medium with such a long as established (expected) history of behavior, is what made it so revolutionary. 

Starting with a character that's dark and gritty from day one, while entertaining, doesn't alter the terra firma of the hobby the way taking an established icon and turning his world upside down does. 

 

But Batman was "dark and gritty from day one." I mean, Batman originally killed his enemies. He became more kid friendly as time went on, eventually becoming silly in the 60's.  And, this wasn't even the first time Batman had been made more "dark and gritty." This happened previously in the late 1960's.

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1 minute ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

But Batman was "dark and gritty from day one." He became more kid friendly as time went on, eventually becoming silly in the 60's.  And, this wasn't even the first time Batman had been made more "dark and gritty." This happened previously in the late 1960's.

Even the darkest and grittiest Neal Adams, isn't on par with what happened in DKR.

The Neal Adams Batman was considered to be dark and gritty mostly because it was viewed in juxtaposition to the ultra-camp of the Adam West Batman. 

It was relatively standard comic fair otherwise. 

 

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3 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

Even the darkest and grittiest Neal Adams, isn't on par with what happened in DKR.

The Neal Adams Batman was considered to be dark and gritty mostly because it was viewed in juxtaposition to the ultra-camp of the Adam West Batman. 

It was relatively standard comic fair otherwise. 

 

But, go back and read that first year of Batman stories (which were really pulpy), and you see he was pretty much a noir badass.

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9 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

Even the darkest and grittiest Neal Adams, isn't on par with what happened in DKR.

The Neal Adams Batman was considered to be dark and gritty mostly because it was viewed in juxtaposition to the ultra-camp of the Adam West Batman. 

It was relatively standard comic fair otherwise. 

 

On a side note, I remember my elementary school library had a hardcover reprint book of the old Batman comics going all the way back to Detective 27. I remember reading all those early stories as a kid, and being fascinated by them. They were so different from the Batman TV show and Superfriends, etc that I was more familiar with. (I wasn't a Batman comic reader yet). It was dark, full of abnormal psychology (which I did not understand at the time), and weird. The Joker wasn't the jovial prankster he was when I knew him, he was a weird, crazy, murderous psychopath. (Which is what he is now, after going back to his roots).

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