New podcast/video from Felix Comic Art (UPDATED 1/3/17!)
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1 hour ago, comix4fun said:

I was interviewed for another podcast recently. 

It was a British-based podcast, so I don't think it violated the non-compete you made me sign. :wishluck:

 

probably non comic related right? do they even like comics in england?

:jokealert:

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9 hours ago, Pete Marino said:

Not that facebook is the be-all-end all for comic collectors, but from what I've seen / read in various facebook groups, most modern collectors are pretty "meh" about DRK.

now if those are the same people that in 15 years (assuming they're 18-22 now) are going to be diving into DKR pages at 35k+, that i can't answer.

The only way I can look at it is from my own chair.  I revere GSXM 1 and that whole run through Byrne, it created the X-Men team that I love.  It started 2 years before I was born.  And if it was in my budget, sure I'd love to have a page from it.  But it's further down the list than the stuff I grew up reading, or have read as an adult and enjoy.

I've found this to be true... a number of younger collectors I've spoken to just don't appear to have the context (of experiencing the 80s first hand, or even understanding the times historically) to see more than a laughably crazy satire in DKR. The world is just a far different place.

I remember reading about theaters full of laughing youngsters during a relatively recent re-release of The Exorcist and I guess I can see that as a similar disconnect between the intentions of an artist creating something in order to comment on a certain place and time, and the different relationship between audience members and movie makers of the past, versus that between audience members and movie makers of the modern era. Expectations have shifted a great deal in the past 30 - 40 years.


Article related. 

http://www.laweekly.com/film/stop-laughing-at-old-movies-you-anding-hipsters-5523746

 

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10 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

But Batman was "dark and gritty from day one." I mean, Batman originally killed his enemies. He became more kid friendly as time went on, eventually becoming silly in the 60's.  And, this wasn't even the first time Batman had been made more "dark and gritty." This happened previously in the late 1960's.

While DKR and Watchmen did change the approach to story telling unfortunately too many people thought it was just to make all characters dark, violent and moody. While those two stories are historic, they also ushered in a couple of decades of writers and fans wanting the characters to turn dark and violent. Two side of a coin in regards to how they effected in industry. For me it wast the writing for DKR that I really liked, the art I can do without. I am in the minority but it isn't some of his best work, so not all old collectors agree on the significance of the artwork.

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Another interesting podcast. While I like hearing Kyle's perspective on collecting from a younger person's point of view. The whole discussion will there be another comic like Dark Knight, just seems like another speculating conversation. People are looking for that next DKR. Where will lightning strike again? You can't really predict it. Besides it would have to be something that changes the direction of an industry, for the good or bad. 

Some people look at Walking Dead as a game changer. I disagree. Yes its popular and sells alot of comics and has become a hit TV show. I just don't think it really has legs to last 30 years like DKR or Watchmen. 

Back to the podcast, I did like seeing Felix on the other side of the mic and from a female perspective. Do you know if Wendi has any comic art or sketches?

 

Edited by Brian Peck

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Agreed on the timeliness of this podcast and the interview with Kyle. Having seen some of my favorite modern Batman OA end up in his hand in a very short amount of time has been both awesome and terrifying.  The idea of competing against him means I can step aside from any modern Batman OA acquisitions for a couple years...

What is notable, IMHO, is that his focus is very defined. He isn't looking to hoover up the Neal Adams market, nor is he looking to be a major player in the Kirby market, or even the DKR/KJ market. As we move to the next decade, who is going to pick up the inevitable retirement needs driving the release of collections that are going to hit the auction block? Its not Kyle. Its not me. Will today's Prince Valiant or Tarzan Sunday strips replicate the last ten years' results when more come to auction? Will those Kamandi covers keep going up? You are going to need a lot more Kyle's to soak up the supply with an ample amount of liquidity; I just don't see where that cash is coming from.

That being said (in direct contradiction of my earlier statement), I have two of Winsor McCay's Rarebit Fiend Sundays from 1908 on my wall at home, which I adore. But I view those as my sole play in the vintage market. 

Ultimately, this isn't an asset class and never should be treated as such. I fret for those who are depending on prices for vintage OA to remain at these levels. Great podcast! Thanks Felix.

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Finally listening to the podcast, another good. Appreciate the confirmation Felix's comments give to what I already strongly suspected was behind his success as a rep. It takes one to know one ;)

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I think collectors who have nostalgia for certain eras (principally when they were in late adolescence and teenagers), think the best stuff from their era is special. Personally, I think early 80's First Comics art is criminally undervalued in the market, relative to its quality and importance. I mean, American Flagg, to me, was just as important as TDKR or Watchmen. But it wasn't published by the Big Two.

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1 minute ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I think collectors who have nostalgia for certain eras (principally when they were in late adolescence and teenagers), think the best stuff from their era is special. Personally, I think early 80's First Comics art is criminally undervalued in the market, relative to its quality and importance. I mean, American Flagg, to me, was just as important as TDKR or Watchmen. But it wasn't published by the Big Two.

Yes. And I'll expand that thought further to include almost all 80s and early 90s independent art except for the obvious: Cerebus, TMNT, Groo, BWS Ditko Layton Valiant, Sin City (actually any Miller), Hellboy (actually any Mignola) and Image top to bottom. The problem, an interesting one, is that the material isn't offered often or regularly. As a collector of non-Big Two you have to have a lot of patience and be willing to buy what the market does occasionally offer.

Twenty-five years ago I would have loved to have gotten anything Ralph Snart. As it turned out I was able to get one published panel page, lost another on eBay by foolishly not bidding to the moon (and thus being outbid by one very rational increment instead), had another original (not sure if published or not) gifted to me by another artist and seeing one or two others on CAF (maybe there today maybe not, haven't looked in years). For whatever reason, this not particularly well-loved title is just about impossible to find originals for. But when they do come up...you'd better be ready with your $150 ( :) ). Yeah, seriously. And that's the problem of low prices...they don't shake the trees. And if we can agree that FMV is $150 for a decent RS panel page...$250-$350 sounds like the aggressive sort of 'stupid money' offer that might bring some out of the woodwork. Well I can guarantee you that I wouldn't sell mine for less than $1500 -and only if I was under financial duress. Sure I am completely out to lunch, but I also know that my chances of getting a replacement in the next twenty-five years are pretty close to nil. They just are not, presently, out and about. And that's what I think is the problem with the entire non-Big Two market above. Not loved enough to shake the trees, which perpetuates nobody paying much,  except weirdos like me, when the occasional example does pop up on eBay for $1 starting bid and no reserve. But if I create a dealing site or put it up on CAF with that $1500 price tag...crickets for the next twenty-five years. Also guaranteed ;)

As to the Chaykin American Flagg market...it's actually quite robust under relative comparison. I can remember when Mitch used to list the stuff in his catalogs and later web site...a couple of hundred for a nice panel page was hardly an insta-sell. There was much more supply than demand. That's turned around the last five or maybe seven years, but that's probably because it's not competing with 80s superhero Marvel and DC for $200 anymore either. I myself faced that choice numerous times in the late 90s and early 00s...Chaykin AF or Sienkiewicz Moon Knight or New Mutants...both on Mitch's site (or list) and both with approximately the same eye-appeal and price tag. Financially speaking, I made the wise choice every time with Sinky. Last ten years that stuff moved up...a lot and suddenly the Chaykin AF is left by its lonesome looking 'cheap'. Funny world. I'll never get tired of playing the game and talking about it.

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what is generally considered a 'young' collector in the hobby?  obviously under 30 - but under 40 as well?

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2 hours ago, vodou said:

Yes. And I'll expand that thought further to include almost all 80s and early 90s independent art except for the obvious: Cerebus, TMNT, Groo, BWS Ditko Layton Valiant, Sin City (actually any Miller), Hellboy (actually any Mignola) and Image top to bottom. The problem, an interesting one, is that the material isn't offered often or regularly. As a collector of non-Big Two you have to have a lot of patience and be willing to buy what the market does occasionally offer.

Twenty-five years ago I would have loved to have gotten anything Ralph Snart. As it turned out I was able to get one published panel page, lost another on eBay by foolishly not bidding to the moon (and thus being outbid by one very rational increment instead), had another original (not sure if published or not) gifted to me by another artist and seeing one or two others on CAF (maybe there today maybe not, haven't looked in years). For whatever reason, this not particularly well-loved title is just about impossible to find originals for. But when they do come up...you'd better be ready with your $150 ( :) ). Yeah, seriously. And that's the problem of low prices...they don't shake the trees. And if we can agree that FMV is $150 for a decent RS panel page...$250-$350 sounds like the aggressive sort of 'stupid money' offer that might bring some out of the woodwork. Well I can guarantee you that I wouldn't sell mine for less than $1500 -and only if I was under financial duress. Sure I am completely out to lunch, but I also know that my chances of getting a replacement in the next twenty-five years are pretty close to nil. They just are not, presently, out and about. And that's what I think is the problem with the entire non-Big Two market above. Not loved enough to shake the trees, which perpetuates nobody paying much,  except weirdos like me, when the occasional example does pop up on eBay for $1 starting bid and no reserve. But if I create a dealing site or put it up on CAF with that $1500 price tag...crickets for the next twenty-five years. Also guaranteed ;)

As to the Chaykin American Flagg market...it's actually quite robust under relative comparison. I can remember when Mitch used to list the stuff in his catalogs and later web site...a couple of hundred for a nice panel page was hardly an insta-sell. There was much more supply than demand. That's turned around the last five or maybe seven years, but that's probably because it's not competing with 80s superhero Marvel and DC for $200 anymore either. I myself faced that choice numerous times in the late 90s and early 00s...Chaykin AF or Sienkiewicz Moon Knight or New Mutants...both on Mitch's site (or list) and both with approximately the same eye-appeal and price tag. Financially speaking, I made the wise choice every time with Sinky. Last ten years that stuff moved

Not even very many Chaykin AF pages listed on Comic Art Tracker.

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1 hour ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Not even very many Chaykin AF pages listed on Comic Art Tracker.

Not anymore. Go back 10-15 years (admittedly a long time, but not nearly as long as how long Howard sat on them) and you'd be tripping over them. I'm sure the key sequences and splashes were snapped up a very long time ago, but otherwise so-called "decent" pages were plentiful and not selling for list.

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4 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I think collectors who have nostalgia for certain eras (principally when they were in late adolescence and teenagers), think the best stuff from their era is special. Personally, I think early 80's First Comics art is criminally undervalued in the market, relative to its quality and importance. I mean, American Flagg, to me, was just as important as TDKR or Watchmen. But it wasn't published by the Big Two.

A quality comparison is subjective, but the book needs to reach people to have impact.  Flagg had a fraction of the audience of the other two when they were fresh on the spinner racks, and the discrepancy in reach has been amplified exponentially over time.

 

 

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They weren't all this bad, but here are a few covers to give everyone a sense of the state of Batman when Miller started
telling his version. The historical significance and impact of DK for the comics world really can't be understated...

batman.thumb.jpg.05dcabad1b8ac8567db46b803d3615a7.jpg

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1st appearance of black mask, a man bat story, a hatter.  moench writing, mandrake art.  maybe its me but I don't see those as being bad bat books?

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I see you left out Calendar Man.

 

Calendar Man.  :sick: 

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Not that Batman was bad at that that time necessarily, just irrelevant.    I would think it was one of the low water marks for his popularity?

I wonder where on the Top 100 titles he was at that time.   Anybody know?   

Batman is so big now that I think its easy for people who didn't live it to forget that there was a dearth of anything Batman and interesting from about the TV show and Neal Adams to about Dark Knight and the Micheal Keaton movie.     That 15 years was mostly dead space, at least comparatively speaking.

 

Edited by Bronty

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6 hours ago, eewwnuk said:

1st appearance of black mask, a man bat story, a hatter.  moench writing, mandrake art.  maybe its me but I don't see those as being bad bat books?

...Just saying they appealed to a different audience than Dark Knight did. 

Edited by J.Sid

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8 hours ago, J.Sid said:

...Just saying they appealed to a different audience than Dark Knight did. 

Yup! The audience was kids.

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15 hours ago, Bronty said:

Not that Batman was bad at that that time necessarily, just irrelevant.    I would think it was one of the low water marks for his popularity?

I wonder where on the Top 100 titles he was at that time.   Anybody know?   

Batman is so big now that I think its easy for people who didn't live it to forget that there was a dearth of anything Batman and interesting from about the TV show and Neal Adams to about Dark Knight and the Micheal Keaton movie.     That 15 years was mostly dead space, at least comparatively speaking.

 

It was pretty drastic, in terms of turnaround, the year BEFORE DKR and the year AFTER DKR.

1985...Batman had 75,000 copies a month in sales on average, with over 60% of printed copies being returned.

1987...Batman had 193,000 copies a month in sales on average, with under 29% of printed copies being returned.

Batman had a progressive, almost annual, drop in print run from 1966 to 1985, then a 20% uptick in 1986, followed by sales doubling in 1987.

From 1976 to 1985 sales dropped every year but for one (1979) which, perhaps coincidentally, was the year Uslan acquired the rights to make a Batman film. 

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Thanks for listening, everyone. Good conversation. 

I’ve had a number of emails come through on CAF regarding the podcast. Interesting trend: they also were not impacted by DKR, and in some cases downright hated it. I’m surprised to hear this from some collectors, and it’s my belief there’s a reservation among younger collectors to express this as it will somehow discredit them in a hobby which is dominated by mature individuals.

When I first read DKR in my teens, I really did not like it. I felt it was far too copy-heavy and the news segments were incredibly boring and broke up the action. I view it very differently now having gone back to it, but it’s still not in my personal top 5. I have no nostalgia towards it, despite reading it early on.

Regarding nostalgia strength VS time, my view differs from Felix’s a bit. Although Dark Victory, HUSH, and Long Halloween were among the first comics I read, it’s Court of Owls which I hold the fondest memories of. This is true for some other listeners who have contacted me as well, as a number of them jumped into comics with the New 52 reboot, or really amped it up when things seemingly became more accessible. Yes, it feels like comics nowadays are reset to #1 almost yearly, but this was the FIRST time Batman went back to #1, and psychologically that brought a lot of new readers in.

Anyhow, it will be interesting to watch prices over the next couple decades. Because the vast majority of art collectors skew older — and sometimes don’t even read new comics from the big two — there’s an inherent lack of appreciation of new work VS the older stuff. Where comments like “Snyder and Capullo’s run was average” and “White Knight is horrible” is echoed among the veteran collectors, an intense and opposing reaction is heard from the younger, heavily active readership. Do you have any idea the hype that is heard throughout local comic stores for White Knight? 

As I mentioned, I do best on the pieces which are absurdly priced and mocked, by far. In part, I attribute this to not possessing a heavy bias towards older work, for whatever significance or reason, which can sometimes lead to a disconnect to what’s happening today. An observation!

Edited by Mr. Machismo

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