New podcast/video from Felix Comic Art (UPDATED 1/3/17!)
6 6

1,392 posts in this topic

23,494 posts
8 hours ago, NelsonAI said:

IMHO, I thought Dave Gibbons' art was serviceable but not great.  Do you see anyone clamoring for Gibbons' non-Watchmen art?

So when it comes down to TDKR and Watchmen, I believe those collectors are buying more for the nostalgia of the story than the actual art itself. 

Same with The Sandman.  IMHO, the title sold on the strength of Neil Gaiman's writing than the crop of rotating artists.  Some of the artists were fantastic, some average.  However, if you ask collectors of Sandman OA, it doesn't matter who the artist is.  It's all about Gaiman's writing.

I remember in the early days of my OA collecting that Watchmen art was still (relatively) inexpensive, as the prevailing view was that it was Moore's writing, not Gibbons' art, that made it special.*  But, over time, I think people grew to recognize that a piece of WM art is not only what Gibbons put on the board, but also incorporates Moore's genius/input.  I also think that people grew to appreciate Gibbons' contribution to the series; his style was really bang-on perfect for it IMO.  I suspect if he had subsequently had a long stint on a major superhero title post-WM (instead of a Supes issue here, some British comics there, etc.) that his non-WM art probably would be more in demand these days.   

Of course there is a nostalgia component to buying WM and DKR art...but, I think there's also the historical significance of the two series and the prestige that comes with owning pieces from them.  One can buy Rob Liefeld art out of nostalgia (not saying there's anything wrong with that at all) and one can buy DKR art out of nostalgia, but, only one of those purchases is going to add gravitas to your collection. 

I totally agree that writing is what determines classics over the long-term (not that artists, in transforming that to visuals, can't play a significant role in the visual language and storytelling, of course).  Todd McFarlane ASM art might always be in-demand on the strength of the art, but, no one in their right mind would call ASM #298-328 a must-read classic run on the strength of the largely forgettable writing (and that goes double for the McSpidey series).  When it comes to Batman, it's the strength of the writing that will keep DKR and Year One so revered IMO. 2c 

 

* Definitely should have seen it coming that people would eventually just clamor to own a piece of Watchmen! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43,056 posts
9 hours ago, NelsonAI said:

 

IMHO, I thought Dave Gibbons' art was serviceable but not great.  Do you see anyone clamoring for Gibbons' non-Watchmen art?

 

Cheers!

N.

 

 

    

You mean like pages from Superman Annual 11?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,837 posts
9 hours ago, NelsonAI said:

As someone that read TDKR and Watchmen when they were first released, I was not impressed.  

I was a huge FM fan and appreciated his futuristic view of Batman but it took me awhile to warm up to his new artistic style.  

Alan Moore has always had a fan following because he treated comics seriously and assumed his audience was mature, intelligent and literate.  However, IMHO, Moore tends to be a bit verbose.  There might very well be more words per square inch on the page than art.  The overall plot was neither unique or groundbreaking.

** SPOILER ALERT **

Sacrifice a million lives to save billions of lives is hardly unique.

** End of Spoiler **

IMHO, I thought Dave Gibbons' art was serviceable but not great.  Do you see anyone clamoring for Gibbons' non-Watchmen art?

So when it comes down to TDKR and Watchmen, I believe those collectors are buying more for the nostalgia of the story than the actual art itself. 

Same with The Sandman.  IMHO, the title sold on the strength of Neil Gaiman's writing than the crop of rotating artists.  Some of the artists were fantastic, some average.  However, if you ask collectors of Sandman OA, it doesn't matter who the artist is.  It's all about Gaiman's writing.

So any future contenders for the next "classic" better have strong writing.  I am with Gene on Brubaker / Epting's run on Captain America.  For full disclosure, I do own some Epting art.  Conversely, on the subject of collecting art for art's sake, people buy art all the time without reading the comic at all.  Want proof?  Look no further than cover artists that have sold their art before the comics have been released.  Adam Hughes, Art Adams, JSC, Finch, etc.  From Felix's own roster, how about Tradd Moore or Skottie Young?  Their art will sell regardless of the writing.

Thankfully, not everyone collects the same type of art. 

Cheers!

N.

 

 

    

I think people buy Preacher art because of the importance of the comic, not because Steve Dillon's art was particularly special (although I personally really like it). He clearly was perfectly suited to the material, but its not special. Like Gibbons, nobody is clamoring for Dillon art outside of Preacher (except maybe some Judge Dredd stuff).

I think the next "TDKR" may never come, as far as comic books go. There is nothing today that gets the same kind of mass audience that book got. The only thing close would be The Waking Dead, but that's a long-running saga, with a ton of art available. TDKR art is valuable in large part because there is not very much art available. Supply and Demand. If you want TWD art, it's easy to come by. Now, "key" pages are more expensive, obviously. But, you will never get the average per page price for TDKR. If Saga art were available, it would also probably be in this category.

I think what would have to happen is that a fairly popular (by today's standards) LIMITED RUN independent comic book becomes a pop culture phenomenon (a la the TMNJ), and gets turned into a big movie franchise, with TV spin offs, etc. I say "limited run" as opposed to ongoing (like TWD) because that original limited run's art would become the most valuable art of the property. It would, inevitably, be sequelized as a comic book, and create a larger universe. But, that initial run would be special. Hell Boy had a shot at that too.

And, had the initial TMNT run been a 6 issue limited series, that may qualify.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,837 posts

I think the very fact that there is a debate about the long term value of TDKR art means that it is probably going to come down from it's lofty heights at some point. It will never be cheap. I think, long term, stuff like the Ditko Spidey pages, or Kirby/Sinnott FF pages (especially from issues 48-50) are the ones that will win out as the most desirable in the hobby. Even among younger collectors. Because, as important as TDKR was, what Kirby and Ditko did in the early Marvel days was far more important for the hobby, and even popular culture.

I recall back in the 70's and early 80's when I would get my annual copy of the Overstreet price guide. I would be amazed that Marvel Comics #1 was more valuable than Action #1 or Detective 27. But, particularly Action #1. I thought "This is the most important comic book ever printed. And it's the second most valuable? This doesn't make any sense to me." I knew this was wrong even when I was a kid.

And, history has born this judgment out. Marvel #1 had a halo effect because it was the first "Marvel" comic. But, history, and logic, won out.

If I had to choose between a good TDKR page and a good Ditko Spidey page, I'd take the latter any day of the week.  

Edited by PhilipB2k17

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43,056 posts
2 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

 

If I had to choose between a good TDKR page and a good Ditko Spidey page, I'd take the latter any day of the week.  

Yeah but, at this point, the latter is going to cost you double what the former does. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,837 posts
Just now, comix4fun said:

Yeah but, at this point, the latter is going to cost you double what the former does. 

And it should. And, I think this illustrates the point. I think Mandel majorly overpaid for that TDKR splash.

I think people should be asking "what's the next Ditko Spider-Man" not the next "TDKR."

Edited by PhilipB2k17

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43,056 posts
1 minute ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

And it should.

I just mean it's not a one to one choice. 

Most people would probably choose the Ditko, as the cornerstone of the hobby/title/character/icon that it represents. That demand is where the price difference is created. 

So you're on the right track in thinking a good Ditko Spidey is more desirable than a good Miller DKR page. The market agrees. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,837 posts
6 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

I just mean it's not a one to one choice. 

Most people would probably choose the Ditko, as the cornerstone of the hobby/title/character/icon that it represents. That demand is where the price difference is created. 

So you're on the right track in thinking a good Ditko Spidey is more desirable than a good Miller DKR page. The market agrees. 

I also think Romtia Spidey pages are significantly inflated. Yes, the KEY pages and covers should be worth a lot. But, the run of the mill Spidey fighting some nondescript random villain in an issue that has no story importance, is just too expensive for what it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43,056 posts
3 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I also think Romtia Spidey pages are significantly inflated. Yes, the KEY pages and covers should be worth a lot. But, the run of the mill Spidey fighting some nondescript random villain in an issue that has no story importance, is just too expensive for what it is.

If that's true I am sure it will eventually correct itself. 

Most of the results that seem inflated are auction results, so it's not a seller demanding too much and a Marvel Zombie opening his wallet. 

It's followed it's current arc for so long, however, it may simply "feel" inflated while the rest of the market is acclimated and accepting. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,837 posts
3 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

If that's true I am sure it will eventually correct itself. 

Most of the results that seem inflated are auction results, so it's not a seller demanding too much and a Marvel Zombie opening his wallet. 

It's followed it's current arc for so long, however, it may simply "feel" inflated while the rest of the market is acclimated and accepting. 

It takes a few years for this stuff to shake out. I think those prices will come down. Or, at least, the price inflation will slow to a relative crawl.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43,056 posts
1 minute ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

It takes a few years for this stuff to shake out. I think those prices will come down. Or, at least, the price inflation will slow to a relative crawl.

Hoping you're right. I've been waiting over 20 years for that to happen. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,014 posts
32 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I think the very fact that there is a debate about the long term value of TDKR art means that it is probably going to come down from it's lofty heights at some point. It will never be cheap. I think, long term, stuff like the Ditko Spidey pages, or Kirby/Sinnott FF pages (especially from issues 48-50) are the ones that will win out as the most desirable in the hobby. Even among younger collectors. Because, as important as TDKR was, what Kirby and Ditko did in the early Marvel days was far more important for the hobby, and even popular culture.

I may be in the minority in saying that I have no interest in ditko spidey or Kirby ff.  I would think that a younger generation would probably rather spend $50k on a splashy Jim Lee cover than some of this older art that they don't have any emotional connection with. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,837 posts
2 minutes ago, eewwnuk said:

I may be in the minority in saying that I have no interest in ditko spidey or Kirby ff.  I would think that a younger generation would probably rather spend $50k on a splashy Jim Lee cover than some of this older art that they don't have any emotional connection with. 

No interest as in "if someone offered it to me in a price range I could afford, I wouldn't buy it?" Or "that's so unobtainable, I don't pay that much attention to it?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,014 posts
2 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

No interest as in "if someone offered it to me in a price range I could afford, I wouldn't buy it?" Or "that's so unobtainable, I don't pay that much attention to it?"

I guess if it was a bargain, well below FMV I would.  but if offered at FMV, or at an auction I wouldn't pay attention to it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,837 posts
10 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

That's probably how lots of collectors think, for sure. There are also various evolutions that most collectors go through over their time in the hobby. Certain artists lead to other artists which lead to those artists inspirations. The same with characters, histories, and eras. 

I started, too many moons ago, as a character collector. Then I added the titles I was nostalgic for in my childhood years. Then I started appreciating various artists and the artists that influenced them outside of my own personal nostalgia or first hand attachment. That led me to appreciating some of the finer nuanced details of certain eras. That also led me to appreciate the "peak" years of those various artists or eras. That wound up including artist teams where certain inkers meshed better than others with certain pencil artists. Before I knew it I was collecting work by artists I had never read as a kid, from eras when I wasn't even alive yet, and that I had no personal attachment towards beyond a developed appreciation for their skill and craft and their place in the overall history of the medium. 

It's all very emotional and internal, and maybe collectors start liking a certain artist and they stay there and never move from that original passion. Lots of others see their "art appreciation" bloom in different directions. So it's hard to peg an entire generation as heading in any one direction when you consider how art hits every person that sees it in a different way. 

Collecting isn't a straight road, I've come to discover for myself. 

I agree with this. I think the sheer quality of Ditko's work on Spider-Man, which was an artistic high point, is going to keep interest high. Miller's TDKR art is an acquired taste, and many not play with younger collectors. I think Ditko has more of a classic style that even non-collectors appreciate.

One thing I do, incidentally, is show my art to my wife and ask her opinions. Some she likes. Some she doesn't. But she has ZERO interest in this stuff, or comics, or even the pop culture surrounding it all (except to a limited extent because I like it). She has literally NO nostalgia at all. It's pure aesthetics for her. And, while I use my own taste as the final arbiter on things, I do feel better about a purchase if my wife thinks its cool. It means that the art, in and of itself, has an intrinsic appeal to complete hobby outsiders. It's a nice corrective to my nostalgia haze.

Edited by PhilipB2k17

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,428 posts
8 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I agree with this. I think the sheer quality of Ditko's work on Spider-Man, which was an artistic high point, is going to keep interest high. Miller's TDKR art is an acquired taste, and many not play with younger collectors. I think Ditko has more of a classic style that even non-collectors appreciate.

I'll just say as an old timer that "gets" Ditko Spidey, it is definitely an acquired taste, every bit as much as Miller DKR. 2c

 

Edited by stinkininkin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,837 posts
Just now, stinkininkin said:

I'll just say as an old timer that "gets" Ditko Spidey, it is definitely an acquired taste, every bit as much as Miller DKR. 2c

 

I'm not sure I agree with that. Ditko, per se, has an interesting style that may not be for everyone. But, his work on Spider-Man fit that character perfectly, so the compositional, and anatomical idiosyncrasies he brought to the table were less of an issue. When he drew those Rom books, yes. It was bracing. But, for the rubbery world of Spider-Man, he was perfect. Can't imagine even Kirby pulling that off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,427 posts
15 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

So...is $2500 for a Saint of Killers Preacher Page where he’s in half the panels, including facing the reader and 3/4 profile a good price? ?

Sounds pretty good...but need to see the art to say for sure!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,837 posts
6 minutes ago, Nexus said:

Sounds pretty good...but need to see the art to say for sure!

I'll shoot you an e-mail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
6 6