New podcast/video from Felix Comic Art (UPDATED 1/3/17!)
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2 hours ago, Nexus said:

Lastly...we've debated the point before, but I'll contend that WM was never inexpensive. At least not here in the US.

Correct. At various times I  attempted to strategically diversify out of my own nostalgic vacuum and buy 'right', a solid WM page was always one of those that I didn't personally connect to but understand was nice ballast (to say the least) against a fair amount of the garbage I usually collect that may not hold up over time (2nd run Cockrum X-Men anyone?) And so, when I was ready to throw $1k in that direction, they were $2k. And when I was ready to go "as much as $3k" they were 5k-10k. And then I just moved on, because 5k-10k+ is much more than you should ever spend on something speculatively that you yourself do not "get". Never cheap. And never cheap compared to opportunity cost, because that 1k in 1991 was also, iirc, where good Ditko ASM pages were too.

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2 hours ago, Nexus said:

Thanks for the plug, Nelson!(thumbsu

And you ain't kidding. Tradd did an issue of SUICIDE SQUAD for DC in 2016. It's been in publishing limbo ever since. He decided to sell the art, since there was no discernible movement with it seeing print.

So...the art is unpublished. No one's even seen it. No one knew who the writer was. That's a lot going against it.

We still sold out every single page. For the same prices that we would have asked if it was published. You can see the art here:

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?Details=1&ArtistId=587&Mag=SUICIDE+SQUAD

Anyway...voudou is right. For many collectors, they don't need to have read the comic before buying the art. More on that in a sec...

 

Problem with 99% of the new art is there is no dialog or balloons on the artwork. So that lessens the writing aspect. I rarely buy any new interior artwork since it lacks dialog. The story is important to me. Many times the artist does nice flashy art and panels but the story is lost if the characters have a generic look out of costume to the artist is a poor story teller. Another DKR has a low probability of happening with new art missing dialog. Half the story can keep some from being interested in the art

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40 minutes ago, Nexus said:

Maybe the makeup of the audience will change. But for now, I do believe that fans are buying simply because they like the art/artist/title. This is a different crowd than who we interact with on the boards. They don't follow the hobby at large. Many don't bother with CAF. Most have no clue about the overall market...nor do they care. They care more about following artists on social media. Their desire to own art derives from that, not for what something similar is worth or may be worth. And if they can afford it, they buy it.

To follow up on this point...we sell a lot of commissions. Everyone knows that commissions are rarely worth more than what they originally cost. No one gets commissions thinking they'll be able to profit from them later. NO speculator is getting commissions. And yet...we sell a lot of commissions.

And not just any commissions, either. We have an "Artist's Choice" option available. That is, the artist chooses what he/she will draw. It could be anything. It's never anything safe or obvious (i.e. superhero, cheesecake, etc.). A lot of collectors have gone for this option, as well. They simply love the artist and their art!

The biggest commission I've managed, is a custom 26-page fan comic drawn by Geoff Shaw. I'll post scans soon. The cost for this was MORE than what a PUBLISHED Geoff Shaw complete issue would run! And Geoff has been working on hot books! Obviously, this guy is not a speculator, either.

At some point, tastes will change. Maybe these collectors will get bored. They'll move on. The art will re-enter the market. But again, I just don't see speculation as the reason they've been buying the art from us.

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1 hour ago, Nexus said:

Now...to what degree is there speculation with what I sell? No idea. But I don't think it's high. I think that speculators tend to avoid me/my site, since most know I'm anti-speculation. I'd rather people not buy from us at all, than buy for speculation...

...So I tend to think collectors are buying because they simply like the art.

To be fair, some of the statements in your newsletters are highly speculative. I.e.:

Quote
  • Daniel has set himself on the path of becoming a complete comics creator, writing and drawing his own stories. As anyone who has read EXTREMITY can attest, he is excelling at both. The next Frank Miller may actually have nothing to do with Batman comics.
  • And yes, Tradd's amazing art from the landmark VENOM #150 is headlining the show. VENOM #150 may go down as this generation's DOCTOR STRANGE #55, an artist's showcase and calling card for Tradd the way it was for Michael Golden. That's right, I'm saying Tradd may be a gamechanger like Michael Golden!
  • So long as Thanos remains a fan-favorite villain, “Thanos Wins” is destined to live on as an evergreen trade when this six-issue event is completed. It should be to Thanos what “Year One” is to Batman and “Born Again” is to Daredevil.
  • THOR #701 may very well represent peak Harren (to date). James is already hugely influential amongst his peers, and this issue only further establishes his status as a generational talent. THOR #701 will be studied for years to come.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think you have to inject a bit of that as a rep – I'd go as far to say it's even your responsibility. But it can't be argued there's no speculative comments surrounding your artists and their art – which may contribute [in part] – to some of their sales. I know it's driven a good friend of mine to purchase from you on at least one occasion.

And to clarify: I believe your art sells so fast primarily because you price fairly and are a huge asset to the hobby, both in terms of moderating discussion, attracting new collectors, and conceptualizing unique ideas. You provide content which leads back to you. My hat's off to you, and I am both thankful and appreciative of you!

Edited by Mr. Machismo

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If i was speculating (i'm not) i'd be investing in art from projects that have the potential to become household names w/o much recognition today.  I'd be looking for what's being optioned into new shows.

 

https://www.theverge.com/2016/1/13/10754200/best-upcoming-book-comic-adaptations-descender-blackfish-nimona

 

http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/18-comic-book-movies-development-you-might-not-know-about

 

Not the newest articles, but i wasn't looking all too hard either.

I have read some of the books on those lists and there are some good stories that i think could be adapted to another medium really well.

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48 minutes ago, Nexus said:

First off...I'm a huge DKR fan, obviously. But I really only mention it on the podcast as much as I do because it's come to drive certain people crazy. I gotta keep myself amused, at the very least.

:) 

48 minutes ago, Nexus said:

So when I talk about DKR, I'm not advocating for its value or its potential value. Actually, I'm quite agnostic about that, if not downright pessimistic. I suppose people hear what they want to hear, but I don't believe I've ever pushed people to buy DKR for any reason, including love.

I've never heard you push it as an investment and I wasn't trying to suggest you did.

I was simply mentioning the level of raised awareness that comes from high priced art being brought up consistently in discussions, and the likely effect that has on people new to the hobby.

48 minutes ago, Nexus said:

It would seem, if WHITE KNIGHT art is already getting flipped, then it was bought for speculation.

My point was that most art circulates early on, even when it was not bought for speculation, simply due to life's unexpected twists - a change of interest, a better acquisition, financial problems, etc.

The art that vanishes and never changes hands seems to be defying the norm.

48 minutes ago, Nexus said:

So what are the "right" pages to invest in? Traditionally in this hobby, they're pages from #1 issues or first appearances of characters. Again, the vast majority of complete issues I've sold, are from random later issues. Does that sound like an "investment"?

I don't invest in art, so I can't say what the right pages are.

But on a simple level, Collecting 101, the parts are worth more than the whole. I'm not aware of any book that was worth more complete than it was in pieces.

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2 hours ago, comix4fun said:

Well, he's talking "GOOD". He wasn't really saying "BEST".

The "GOOD" Ditko Panels are in the $60's-70's. The "GOOD" Miller DKR seems to be sitting about 1/2 that.

Now the "BEST" might close the gap, but he was talking "GOOD". 

If I recall, Glen Gold said that in his opinion, the Doc Oc vs Spidey page was one of the 6 best Ditko Spidey fight pages. It got about $100k? That's well under the best prices for the top TDKR pages.

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1 minute ago, Mr. Machismo said:

To be fair, some of the statements in your newsletters are highly speculative. I.e.:

Don't get me wrong, I think you have to inject a bit of that as a rep – I'd go as far to say it's even your responsibility. But it can't be argued there's no speculative comments surrounding your artists and their art – which may contribute [in part] – to some of their sales. I know it has for a good friend of mine.

And to clarify: I believe your art sells so fast primarily because you price fairly and are a huge asset to the hobby, both in terms of moderating discussion, attracting new collectors, and conceptualizing unique ideas. You provide content which leads back to you. My hat's off to you, and I am both thankful and appreciate of you!

I'm glad you brought this up. When I mention these things, it's from the perspective of a fan. It's from the perspective of someone who has been a collector for 40 years. It's from the perspective of someone who really appreciates good comic art. It's in no way encouraging anyone to buy for value.

Let's go over these:

- If anyone's going to be the "next Frank Miller", it won't be because they worked on a Batman comic. It will be because they kick at writing and drawing their own work. Let's not forget, Frank Miller could actually write. Does this mean DWJ's art will be worth what Frank Miller's art is now worth? NO. It just means he's a badass comics creator.

- How many of you even get the DOCTOR STRANGE #55 reference? Or care about Michael Golden? This is just how *I* see it. Michael Golden is an artist's artist. He does not have the name, or market, value of an Art Adams or a Todd McFarlane. I'm not saying Tradd's going to be "hot". Just respected by his peers.

- Marvel is so happy with THANOS WINS, that both Donny and Geoff are being treated very well. There's not much I can say about this, other than all will be revealed in time. So yes, THANOS WINS is destined to be a go-to story for Thanos fans...much like BORN AGAIN and YEAR ONE. I mentioned those specifically, because like TW, they were inserted into a regular run, they weren't standalones. But they proved to be defining stories.

- This one is easy. James is already hugely influential to younger artists. He already has countless imitators. He IS a generational talent.

Now, am I excited by these guys? Am I enthusiastic about their art? YES. Of course. I wouldn't be doing this otherwise. But I have also been very, very vocal about "investment", speculation, values, etc., throughout the years. I don't know how much more I can stress that. If the art was worth nothing, I'd still be a fan of Frank Miller, DOCTOR STRANGE #55, BORN AGAIN, YEAR ONE, etc. I loved that stuff before I even knew about OA.

 

(I've also said that "all art started off as modern art". Some might take that to mean get it now while it's cheap. NO. It means get it now WHILE YOU CAN. Circling back to our earlier discussion, I'd LOVE to have been able to buy AMERICAN FLAGG!, GRENDEL, MAGE, NEXUS, BADGER, JON SABLE, etc. covers when they were first sold. But I wasn't in this hobby when the opportunity was there. We know, intellectually, that they will lose value over time. But I still wish I had them, terrible "investments" or not.)

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1 hour ago, RabidFerret said:

I want to play devil's advocate a little here...

First and foremost, you're a huge DKR fan, which means your podcasts often reference that series and have guests that talk about it quite often. You do a good job of saying "only buy what you love and don't invest", but at the same time, a common thread is about a book where every page is 5-6 figures these days. Some people just see dollar signs no matter how much you push buying for love.

Second, if the art isn't being flipped at all, that may actually support the notion that people are in it for speculation.

Most artists and books that come onto the market sell the same way - the best pages are picked through, the weak ones linger. Inevitably a percentage of things that sold early on resurface months later when people realize they overspent, didn't like what they bought, find a better example, etc. We've talked a lot about White Knight on these boards, and while the art is not selling out, we've already seen pieces relisted for sale on eBay and dealer sites.

Yet if most of the art you sell isn't resurfacing, even in small doses, it makes me curious. There are plenty of investors who buy art, put the date they bought it on it, and throw it into a bin and don't look at it until 10 years have passed. They intentionally buffer how soon they let it return to the market.

And if that's a buyer's mindset, it seems like buying complete issues is the most cost effective investment vehicle since you don't need to worry about whether you picked the right pages to invest in.

 

I've seen some Extremity art go up on the secondary market already. It's starting to be re-sold.

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1 hour ago, eewwnuk said:

no disrespect meant, but I would think that if you were an 'investor', buying a full issue of extremity wouldn't be the first way I would think an investor would place 10k.  to me it points that these are going to collectors.

Yes. I think so.

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12 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

If I recall, Glen Gold said that in his opinion, the Doc Oc vs Spidey page was one of the 6 best Ditko Spidey fight pages. It got about $100k? That's well under the best prices for the top TDKR pages.

Panel.

Page.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

If I recall, Glen Gold said that in his opinion, the Doc Oc vs Spidey page was one of the 6 best Ditko Spidey fight pages. It got about $100k? That's well under the best prices for the top TDKR pages.

I'm not sure if I missed part of the conversation but I don't follow.    First of all, the BEST spidey panel pages, to compare to the BEST TDKR pages, would be AF15 pages.    No way does DRK compare.

The very very best would probably be the DKR 1 cover versus the AF15 cover if it existed.    Again, no contest.      Even Mandel's ASM 11(?) cover would blow it out of the water IMO.

Edited by Bronty

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58 minutes ago, vodou said:

Correct. At various times I  attempted to strategically diversify out of my own nostalgic vacuum and buy 'right', a solid WM page was always one of those that I didn't personally connect to but understand was nice ballast (to say the least) against a fair amount of the garbage I usually collect that may not hold up over time (2nd run Cockrum X-Men anyone?) And so, when I was ready to throw $1k in that direction, they were $2k. And when I was ready to go "as much as $3k" they were 5k-10k. And then I just moved on, because 5k-10k+ is much more than you should ever spend on something speculatively that you yourself do not "get". Never cheap. And never cheap compared to opportunity cost, because that 1k in 1991 was also, iirc, where good Ditko ASM pages were too.

Yep. Like I said. I'd rather have one of those Ditko spidey pages over a WM page, even though I really like Watchmen.

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1 minute ago, comix4fun said:

Panel.

Page.

 

 

Yeah, I think that distinction was missed.

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18 minutes ago, RabidFerret said:

I was simply mentioning the level of raised awareness that comes from high priced art being brought up consistently in discussions, and the likely effect that has on people new to the hobby.

Yes...and no.

A collector came up to me at NYCC and showed me a Miller DKR piece he had just acquired. He said that after listening to it mentioned so many times on the podcast, he felt like he needed to have one!

OTOH...a friend asked why I was encouraging Kyle K. and his generation to start chasing DKR, as it would only make things more difficult to us. My answer is I wasn't. And it wouldn't really matter. We all like what we like. I'm no more going to convince him to buy DKR, than he's going to convince me to buy Capullo Batman.

So maybe someone who was already a fan might get nudged. But I don't think anyone who doesn't truly "love" the material will be taking that plunge.

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17 minutes ago, Nexus said:

 

 I'm no more going to convince him to buy DKR, than he's going to convince me to buy Capullo Batman.

 

So...you're suggesting a trade then...samberg.gif.cd28aad331655ab7fdce304a73cd71c8.gif

 

 

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If my earnings and inclination were different, I'd be more than happy to buy a cover by an artist I liked even if I haven't read the book.  Look at some of the older collections on CAF, like Jim Reid's  - you think he's read every comic he's got a piece from?  I bet he bought the piece for the love of the artist, character, or both.  Consider variant covers sell all the time based on the artist, not exactly the book itself (although that could be the drive for some). 

I am a DWJ fan and at this point I'll pick up anything he does, and I bought an Extremity cover ahead of reading the issue based on the image and the series in general.  I'd buy like that again, but would ideally prefer to buy from what I've read (past tense), especially due to the lack of word balloons on modern art, but also to marry my understanding of the content with words.  It's all Felix's fault for being too efficient and getting art for sale quicker than I get to the comic shop!

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@Nexus The fan perspective makes sense. I think that may get lost on some, including myself, as you’re the most identifiable moderator of investment/cost discussion opposed to readership (IIRC, you don’t read the big two).

It’s clear you’re [super] anti- comic art as investment on Twitter and podcast. When something like that is written, I’m betting there’s still a small chunk of people who take that as a “tip”, given your proximity to the “market” and buy accordingly.

But again, as a rep I think that’s to be expected and even encouraged when done honestly and out of genuine excitement (like you are.) 

Edited by Mr. Machismo

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5 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

If I recall, Glen Gold said that in his opinion, the Doc Oc vs Spidey page was one of the 6 best Ditko Spidey fight pages. It got about $100k? That's well under the best prices for the top TDKR pages.

First, that page sold for $136K, which is probably more than any non-splash DKR page (certainly more than any non-splash public DKR sale to date). 

Second, it may be one of Glen's 6 best Spidey fight pages, but, his criteria isn't necessarily market value.  When the #33 issue was floated as being potentially broken up (in the end, it wasn't), the valuation of the iconic "lifting machinery" pages was mooted to be far higher (numbers that started with "2" and "3").  When people talk about what the best pages from the earliest issues known to exist might fetch, I hear numbers that also start with "2", "3" and even "4" - far more than what that page fetched.  That page is probably closer to top 60 than top 6 in terms of Ditko ASM market value.  

Third, and this is somewhat of a tangent, but, I do not consider pages like that Doc Ock page to be "A+" pages.  If that's an A+ page, then what are iconic pages like the machinery pages from #33?  A+++?  For me, "A+" is bandied about almost as casually as the term "grail" in the hobby.  For me, true A+ pages should have some importance/significance to them beyond just excellent composition and rendering.  I mean, OK, I'm sure there are pages that are just so exquisitely drawn that you'd have to designate them as being "A+" quality just on aesthetics alone.  But, I think those pages are far, far, far, far fewer than people think.  2c   

Anyway, the bottom line is that comparably tiered Ditko ASM vs. Miller DKR...Ditko ASM blows DKR out of the water by a wide margin.  

Edited by delekkerste

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6 hours ago, Skizz said:

Again, whilst I agree that DKR will always remain higher that Court of Owls as a story, I do feel that overall the price disparity for the art between the two will lessen in the decades to come. 

I think that's possible, but, if I was a betting man (and I am), I would take the other side of that bet.  My feeling is that we are living in a Golden Age of Comic Art Collecting and that, when the generation that grew up post-Marvel bankruptcy/in the Internet era become the driving force in the hobby, having had their interests splintered in an infinite number of directions compared to the generations that preceded them, likely being less financially well-off and inheriting a market that the Gen Xers have inflated to steroidal levels, you're going to see some of that "hollowing out" effect that some have mentioned.  A LOT of things will fall by the wayside in this scenario, and it will largely be the most important & memorable material with the widest appeal that retains its value (and maybe the really cheap stuff).  IF that happens, I can easily see the price disparity between DKR and Court of Owls actually widening

I'm not saying that this is going to happen for sure by any means, but, I think there is at least a 1 in 3 chance that it will - not something you can just dismiss out of hand. 2c 

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