STAR WARS : The Force Awakens SPOILER Discussion

[thirdgreenham]

Emo Ren is as complex as a background Storm Trooper. Another aspect poorly copied from the original. Maybe he will turn against the Dark Side later and save his sibling!

 

[kav]

Darth Vader worked because he was bold and relentless-he never boasted or smirked. He wasn't 'conflicted' (angst).

Hollywood seems to think villains have to boast and smirk, filled with angst-lots of angst- nowadays.

Hannibal Lecter was not 'conflicted'. The 'conflicted' character is way overdone and boring as hell.

[MR SigS]

Darth Vader worked because he was bold and relentless-he never boasted or smirked. He wasn't 'conflicted' (angst).

Hollywood seems to think villains have to boast and smirk, filled with angst-lots of angst- nowadays.

Hannibal Lecter was not 'conflicted'. The 'conflicted' character is way overdone and boring as hell.

 

Don't forget Ledgers's Joker.

[bronze_rules]

Darth Vader worked because he was bold and relentless-he never boasted or smirked. He wasn't 'conflicted' (angst).

Hollywood seems to think villains have to boast and smirk, filled with angst-lots of angst- nowadays.

Hannibal Lecter was not 'conflicted'. The 'conflicted' character is way overdone and boring as hell.

 

Sure... but that's because those characters were beyond any conflict threshold. If you go back to Hannibal's origins, he was very conflicted up until the point that they ate his sister for dinner. That was the turning point. I'd say to have patience, Kylo will get there.

[rjrjr]

Kylo Ren was conflicted in TFA. He wasn't pure dark or light for most of the movie and it isn't until the Starkiller base weapon is fully charged when he turns dark and he kills Han.

 

I'm betting that Lor San Tekka has a different opinion about when he turned dark. I'm also thinking it happened at some point prior to the point where he took the time to fetch his dead grandfather's ashes from Endor.

 

I'm just relaying to you what is in the book. I feel like much of this didn't really make it to the screen. Like Rey touching the dark side in the lightsaber battle with Ren. Now that someone has said it is in the book, I can see it. But after 3 viewings of the movie, it wasn't obvious to me that is what happened.

[kav]

Darth Vader worked because he was bold and relentless-he never boasted or smirked. He wasn't 'conflicted' (angst).

Hollywood seems to think villains have to boast and smirk, filled with angst-lots of angst- nowadays.

Hannibal Lecter was not 'conflicted'. The 'conflicted' character is way overdone and boring as hell.

 

Sure... but that's because those characters were beyond any conflict threshold. If you go back to Hannibal's origins, he was very conflicted up until the point that they ate his sister for dinner. That was the turning point. I'd say to have patience, Kylo will get there.

I'm just talking about the character in Red Dragon and Silence of the Lambs. The Lecter in the books after that was a ridiculous joke of a character.

[fantastic_four]

Emo Ren is as complex as a background Storm Trooper. Another aspect poorly copied from the original. Maybe he will turn against the Dark Side later and save his sibling!

 

 

Emo Ren has his own Twitter account:

 

https://twitter.com/kylor3n?lang=en

 

[NTHstars]

Just watched Star Wars again.

 

Some of my plot hole concerns melted away on second viewing, as I do believe Rey's amazing speed learning the Force (and everything else) will be explained.

 

I still think the First Order wasn't handled well. As others have said, they seem mindlessly mean, another obvious Nazi copy. And do they actually represent a civilization and have cities, or are they just a roving army that go around killing people not part of their army? If not, where do the resources come from to build their armies (stealing, I guess?). Why would they appeal to anyone? Maybe it's just about subjugation and the dark side imprisons them in evil, like the stormtroopers who are now apparently stolen children, but that isn't obvious.

 

Why does Emo Vader believe his shamelessly evil First Order is better than the resistance, that the dark is better than the light? Even Vader bailed on it, which he should know or be able to sense.

 

And yes, we are treated to poorly defended Death Star #3, taken down even easier than the first two.

 

But the movie as a whole played better second time around. I agree that some cleverness to disguise the evil of the First Order would've produced a more interesting villain.

 

 

[JayT]

Just watched Star Wars again.

 

If not, where do the resources come from to build their armies (stealing, I guess?). Why would they appeal to anyone? Maybe it's just about subjugation and the dark side imprisons them in evil, like the stormtroopers who are now apparently stolen children, but that isn't obvious.

 

 

As noted above while it it left unsaid for now (or maybe forever because it might not be important in the flow of a film) but there are existing in current canon hints (or even beyond that, it's outright stated) that the Empire left the known/charted galaxy some time after Return of the Jedi after the war was pretty much decied with their fleet led by a Admiral commanding the last remaining Super Star Destroyer, where they already has some outposts established by Palpatine, who thought the source of power was out there.

 

I think we will get the product of that in later films, probably via when we are told of Snoke's origins or Kylo's fall.

 

 

I don't think they've been around forever/since RotJ in open conflict, I think they might have come back.

 

[Broke as a Joke]

Seems many of the plot holes and the lack of background information are going to be addressed in books instead of film. Personally I don't like this approach as the original trilogy didn't force you to read up to understand what was going on. Disney is going to milk this thing for all they can get.

[NTHstars]

Seems many of the plot holes and the lack of background information are going to be addressed in books instead of film. Personally I don't like this approach as the original trilogy didn't force you to read up to understand what was going on. Disney is going to milk this thing for all they can get.

Agreed. The movies should be able to stand on their own. The vast majority of viewers are not going to read the books.

 

P.S.

 

And how did the stormtrooper janitor know where the thermal ossilator was on the new death star, the one thing that could destroy the weapon? Secret information is not shared throughout an entire military, it is kept close with only those who have to know it.

 

Its like if the Manhattan project was known about by janitors during World War II.

[Thawk]

Haters gonna hate.

[JayT]

I think there is information in the books, just like there were for other movies, and while it might add to the film, I don't think it detracts, meaning, I don't think most people usually need to know where the antagonists resources and recruiting is coming from when watching a SF/F movie. Instead, I think those are exactly the type of subjects that are left to be discussed outside of it, if a property has that kind of fandom (which this does). I think in most other movies we assume they get their armies from wherever they get them.

 

I just don't think we asked those same question of the OT or generally in other films, but that could just be me, especially in a trilogy where such information might be addressed. Where did the Rebels get their resources if the Empire was so powerful? I think we just take that it's a rebellion and role with it, don't we? They just traded sides.

 

I'd suggest that out of the how manys billions of people under their previous rule, in a GALACTIC Empire, not all of them hated them, and they had strongholds and sympathisers even in known space, though I agree there does seem to be some sort of early indoctrination to at least the infantry, which is directly addressed in the film.

 

All that said, I am interested in the origins of the First Order, but I'm pretty confident it will be addressed.

 

 

 

 

[revat]

I think there is information in the books, just like there were for other movies, and while it might add to the film, I don't think it detracts, meaning, I don't think most people usually need to know where the antagonists resources and recruiting is coming from when watching a SF/F movie. Instead, I think those are exactly the type of subjects that are left to be discussed outside of it, if a property has that kind of fandom (which this does). I think in most other movies we assume they get their armies from wherever they get them.

 

I just don't think we asked those same question of the OT or generally in other films, but that could just be me, especially in a trilogy where such information might be addressed. Where did the Rebels get their resources if the Empire was so powerful? I think we just take that it's a rebellion and role with it, don't we? They just traded sides.

 

I'd suggest that out of the how manys billions of people under their previous rule, in a GALACTIC Empire, not all of them hated them, and they had strongholds and sympathisers even in known space, though I agree there does seem to be some sort of early indoctrination to at least the infantry, which is directly addressed in the film.

 

All that said, I am interested in the origins of the First Order, but I'm pretty confident it will be addressed.

 

 

 

 

I'm no so sure it will be revealed too much, but I don't think its unreasonable to think that the Empire still rules a chunk of the galaxy, even 30 years later. Here's why:

 

1. The Emperor, and Vader while quite powerful, just don't have the time to govern and police 1000 star systems on their own, they most likely have tons of exceptionally smart exceptionally qualified governors, administrators and military commanders that collectively or individually would be more than capable of ruling and controlling a smaller segment of the galaxy, and putting up strong military resistance to the growing New Republic.

 

2. Storm Troopers and other Empire staff and soldiers in many cases are still clones or brainwashed from youth or after joining.

 

3. Many of the people in power on the planets most likely benefited from the Empire's rule, and would be in favor of continued 'order' on their planets. Additionally, many of the actual residents of the galaxy prefer the order (we've all seen people and whole countries get swept up in nationalist propaganda but ultimately be on the wrong side of history).

 

4. While the 2nd Death Star was destroyed, it didn't seem like a large percentage of the Imperial Fleet was there, although obviously they lost a Super Star Destroyer, although its seems reasonable to think there was more than one in the fleet. At the time of the Death of the Emperor, the Imperial Fleet was still probably 50-100x bigger than the Rebel Fleet. That would change over time, but probably wouldn't be immediate.

 

5. The books have alluded to other secret weapons and plans that both Vader and the Emperor had, other potential 'force enhanced' and regular super soldiers and agents available

 

 

So if the remnants of the former Empire controlling a smaller but still significant amount of territory and resources were to unite under a new powerful leader with influence, leadership, and a remarkable similarity to some qualities of the Emperor, they would definitely be a threat.

[JayT]

I think there is information in the books, just like there were for other movies, and while it might add to the film, I don't think it detracts, meaning, I don't think most people usually need to know where the antagonists resources and recruiting is coming from when watching a SF/F movie. Instead, I think those are exactly the type of subjects that are left to be discussed outside of it, if a property has that kind of fandom (which this does). I think in most other movies we assume they get their armies from wherever they get them.

 

I just don't think we asked those same question of the OT or generally in other films, but that could just be me, especially in a trilogy where such information might be addressed. Where did the Rebels get their resources if the Empire was so powerful? I think we just take that it's a rebellion and role with it, don't we? They just traded sides.

 

I'd suggest that out of the how manys billions of people under their previous rule, in a GALACTIC Empire, not all of them hated them, and they had strongholds and sympathisers even in known space, though I agree there does seem to be some sort of early indoctrination to at least the infantry, which is directly addressed in the film.

 

All that said, I am interested in the origins of the First Order, but I'm pretty confident it will be addressed.

 

 

 

 

I'm no so sure it will be revealed too much, but I don't think its unreasonable to think that the Empire still rules a chunk of the galaxy, even 30 years later. Here's why:

 

1. The Emperor, and Vader while quite powerful, just don't have the time to govern and police 1000 star systems on their own, they most likely have tons of exceptionally smart exceptionally qualified governors, administrators and military commanders that collectively or individually would be more than capable of ruling and controlling a smaller segment of the galaxy, and putting up strong military resistance to the growing New Republic.

 

2. Storm Troopers and other Empire staff and soldiers in many cases are still clones or brainwashed from youth or after joining.

 

3. Many of the people in power on the planets most likely benefited from the Empire's rule, and would be in favor of continued 'order' on their planets. Additionally, many of the actual residents of the galaxy prefer the order (we've all seen people and whole countries get swept up in nationalist propaganda but ultimately be on the wrong side of history).

 

4. While the 2nd Death Star was destroyed, it didn't seem like a large percentage of the Imperial Fleet was there, although obviously they lost a Super Star Destroyer, although its seems reasonable to think there was more than one in the fleet. At the time of the Death of the Emperor, the Imperial Fleet was still probably 50-100x bigger than the Rebel Fleet. That would change over time, but probably wouldn't be immediate.

 

5. The books have alluded to other secret weapons and plans that both Vader and the Emperor had, other potential 'force enhanced' and regular super soldiers and agents available

 

 

So if the remnants of the former Empire controlling a smaller but still significant amount of territory and resources were to unite under a new powerful leader with influence, leadership, and a remarkable similarity to some qualities of the Emperor, they would definitely be a threat.

 

I agree, I don't think it's going to be directly addressed, just something that we get more insight to when on the side they explain the origins of Snoke. I think it's not something they think they have to address directly, as it falls under common sense or simply just it's a movie IMHO.

 

Even a single digit percentage of the old Empire would still be a LOT, at least to remain a threat. Consider the Rebel Alliance, that was never close to a 50/50 fight.

 

I don't want to keep talking about the books and cut scenes, and I do think one weakness in the film is to take 30 seconds and better describe the political climate we were in, but are told that the New Republic had largely broken up their central military and let different regions fullfill security and military needs on their own, while maintaining a much smaller central military force (so they didn't seem like the Empire, yeah I know, dumb). You can blame Mon Mothma for that. Leia and her resistance wanted more help. I think that could have been addressed simply in the opening crawl more or with a single 20 second scene that was cut.

 

 

[chrisco37]

I saw it over the break and enjoyed it very much. Infinitely better than any of the putrid prequels.

 

It was very much a "mirror" of the original SW, but that didn't bother me. I thought Kylo was a cool villain, although his voice thru the helmet annoyed me a bit at first.

 

Only thing I really didn't "like" was the Supreme Emperor (or whatever you call him). As someone else mentioned, he looked like he belonged in LOTR instead of SW.

 

Loved the final scene with Luke. Was great to see him back.

 

A worthy addition to the SW franchise overall though.

[Doc McCoy]

Seems many of the plot holes and the lack of background information are going to be addressed in books instead of film. Personally I don't like this approach as the original trilogy didn't force you to read up to understand what was going on. Disney is going to milk this thing for all they can get.

 

I enjoyed the nostalgia rush of seeing the original cast and I loved the look on my two boys faces as they watched it, but after looking back on the film afterwards, there were just some inexcusably large plot holes that were left in the film that should not have been there given the budget and time it took to make it. Doesn't mean I didn't like the film, just dropped it from an A+ to a B+ in my opinion. The experience of taking my boys to see a Star Wars film though, was priceless.

[drotto]

Seems many of the plot holes and the lack of background information are going to be addressed in books instead of film. Personally I don't like this approach as the original trilogy didn't force you to read up to understand what was going on. Disney is going to milk this thing for all they can get.

 

I enjoyed the nostalgia rush of seeing the original cast and I loved the look on my two boys faces as they watched it, but after looking back on the film afterwards, there were just some inexcusably large plot holes that were left in the film that should not have been there given the budget and time it took to make it. Doesn't mean I didn't like the film, just dropped it from an A+ to a B+ in my opinion. The experience of taking my boys to see a Star Wars film though, was priceless.

 

It is nice to get a movie that is a cultural event once in a while. In those cases how great the movie is (or is not) is overshadowed by the experience. I saw this with two other families that I know. We bought the tickets weeks in advanced and we were truly excited to be there. You can see the movie again, you can't get that excitement back. We even ran into a second group of people we kn0w at the same theater and time. So I knew 26 people in the theater, and my son and 8 kids other boys took over an entire row by themselves.

[MR SigS]

Seems many of the plot holes and the lack of background information are going to be addressed in books instead of film. Personally I don't like this approach as the original trilogy didn't force you to read up to understand what was going on. Disney is going to milk this thing for all they can get.

 

Disney manipulation.

 

I'll read these new books, but I'll have the hardest time adjusting to anything referencing Han and Leia not getting married and not having 3 amazingly powerful children- one of whom became Darth Caedus.

Sour grapes.

[Comicopolis]

And a great copy of the original.

 

"I think it's a very facile but quite clever forgery." - Roger Waters*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* Talking in 1987 about the Waters-less Pink Floyd album A Momentary Lapse of Reason, but an apt description of Star Wars Episode VII as well.

 

I'm not sure about the clever part.

 

Did you dislike the Learning to Fly album or the new SW or both?

 

I haven't listened to Learning to Fly but Pink Floyd stopped being clever once Syd left.

 

I don't dislike TFA I just think that is highly derivative of what has gone before. I'll watch it again when it arrives on DVD but from a first watch I found it to be mainly style with very little substance.