There's a Restored 9.4 Tec 33 Blowing up on Ebay

[VintageComics]

This book is nearly identical to others I have seen like it from CGC (i.e. a 9.4 heavily restored) in absolutely every significant respect with the possible exception of the label color, which you have decried from the beginning. So to hold this up as something that altered your predisposed opinion in any way is disingenuous.

How can you possibly make this statement without having held the book and examining the specific restoration applied to it in relation to the specific restoration applied to those books in the CGC holders you have examined? In fact you are making a ridiculous comparison based on nothing substantive. From those who have seen and held these books the general agreement is that the restoration is like nothing CGC has had to deal with before and therefore they decided not to grade them. CBCS did decide to grade them and gave them very high grades. So the truth is that they are not anywhere near identical in any respect to similarly graded CGC books.

 

Can you share what do you know about the restoration done to these books?

 

Does the restorer recreate the 4 color dot matrix?

 

[rjpb]

There are all sorts of valid reasons for buying extensively restored books, but I'd be surprised if those who purchase them really think there's any greater value in a 9.8 EP over a 9.4 EP.

 

[bluechip]

There are all sorts of valid reasons for buying extensively restored books, but I'd be surprised if those who purchase them really think there's any greater value in a 9.8 EP over a 9.4 EP.

 

That's as it should be, but probably not as it actually is. Label number chasing definitely occurs in restored books as well, speaking from experience, having seen books I sold reappear with higher grade numbers (and sometimes, somehow, with lesser levels of restoration), sell for much more.

[Jaydogrules]

How can it be a pedigree and extensively restored?

 

I was wondering that as well. Between this and the restored "9.8" showcase 4 Voldy has coming up in the next CC auction, whatever remaining regard I had for that other company and their grading/labeling practices has pretty much left the building.

 

-J.

 

It isn't reasonable to pretend that you ever had any opinion of the other company except to attack it relentlessly from the beginning for its audacity to exist in the first place. And you've done so while relentlessly hawking the value of CGC'd moderns and variants.

 

Pretty much just your opinion and an extreme mischaracterisation of what are my (and many, many others') real and valid concerns with that company.

 

And yes, I collect high dollar moderns as well.

 

-J.

 

You can collect "high dollar moderns" without ever getting a complaint from me, or even my observance that it's an oxymoron. You can even extol their value to a degree I find excessive without ever getting a complaint from me. But when you devote considerable effort to extolling their value while simultaneously making an effort to devalue other people's property I will not refrain from pointing out the contradiction nd the appearance of malicious intent (though I could never hope to match or would ever want to match the number of times and places you say it).

 

And my observation about your jihad against the other company is no less than 100% accurate. This book is nearly identical to others I have seen like it from CGC (i.e. a 9.4 heavily restored) in absolutely every significant respect with the possible exception of the label color, which you have decried from the beginning. So to hold this up as something that altered your predisposed opinion in any way is disingenuous.

 

I find it odd that you believe my expressing (along with numerous other boardies) a distate for the other company's labeling and grading practices is comparable to a "jihad". And I find it nearly equally puzzling why you find the fact that I also have an extensive modern collection to be relevant to this conversation or this book.

 

You may want to take a step back from the ledge and reevaluate some of your choices of words.

 

These are just comic books we're talking about here after all.

 

-J.

[seanfingh]

 

Finally, I have seen plenty of extensively restored books with 9.4 CGC labels. Plenty. Plenty. As in many, many. A lot. Including the one I referenced above. and others I had sold personally which later reappeared in "better" CGC labels. So it's disingenuous to imply that this happens only with the "other" companies.

 

As for Biljo White, the guy was a force in creating fan interest, fanzines etc. I think it makes sense to value or expect others to value books from his collection if you also place increased value upon the many, many pedigrees which are out there and whose prior owners were just kids who happened to store many books together. If a 9.4 that was found along with other high grade is to be worth more than some exactly the same copy which was stored away by itself, why can't a book owned by one of comic fandom's founders be considered more than a book which is identical in every other way except that?

 

I have owned some of Biljo's books and I can say that it did seem that he stored them in ways that led to brittling of paper. But the ones that had covers (he didn't seem to mind having coverless books if the hero wasn't featured on the cover) had fairly well presenting covers. So I would not be surprised to learn this Tec 33 had nice eye appeal in the first place and just needed (a lot) of structural support. (though I don't know this precise book well enough to say that definitively)

 

Well presenting and brittle is perfect for a complete leafcasting job. Trim it down to size and voila - instant 9.8 Biljo White special.

The resto on these books from this particular restorer is nothing like leafcasting. For one thing leafcasting is completely removable and reversible. With a brittle book leafcasting only applies to areas where paper is missing. It can improve the pliability of the paper fibers but does not necessarily change the color of the paper. With these books the brittle paper is simply being bleached white and the color is applied directly over that. There is no way to tell where the original ends and the recreated begins.

 

Is there any indication what is causing the increased pliability, if not leafcasting?

[Bronty]

No restored book should be able to get a 9.8

I know that restored books are graded based on their apparent grade, aka their visual grade. But knowledge of the restoration should at a minimum count as at least the smallest of defects. A restored 9.6 would still be absurd, but a restored 9.8 is laughable.

 

I disagree, the apparent grade should be the apparent grade. If restoration such as dark spots or uneven tone etc is noticeable from piece fill and color touch then no 9.8; absolutely. A 9.8 restored should be very highly unusual. But there's no reason they shouldn't exist in theory. Say you have a 9.8 with some unnecessary pro color touch (red overtop of red, size of a pin head, totally unnecessary and just to prove the point). If unnoticeable there's no reason it shouldn't get a 9.8. Remove the pinhead and you have a 9.8 blue.

 

But yeah most times if there's been piece fill and such the tone of the colors is always off just a teeny tiny bit

[HRCostigan]

I'm in the camp that doesn't understand the fuss. It's EP, where there has always been a question about how much of the book is original. Nothing new. Let the market figure it out. Doesn't mean the restorer is doing anything wrong, doesn't mean the grading company is doing anything wrong, doesn't mean the seller is doing anything wrong.

[Silver Surfer]

I think we all hope that the grades warrant the level of exceptional work and perhaps new restoration techniques that it would take to bring a GA book to a 9.8 level. However, if this is nothing more than a new take on grading Ext P books by a new grading company trying to gain a foothold in the market then you can see why people would be annoyed. So far the market return on Voldemort books vs comparable CGC books at auction appears to be negative.

[*matterus023*]

I'm in the camp that doesn't understand the fuss. It's EP, where there has always been a question about how much of the book is original. Nothing new. Let the market figure it out. Doesn't mean the restorer is doing anything wrong, doesn't mean the grading company is doing anything wrong, doesn't mean the seller is doing anything wrong.

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

Plus is it possible that these new techniques are possibly threatening other restorers?

 

The way I see it is:- If say a comic is restored by one of the well known established restorers and it achieves a grade of 8.0 EP I would bet that some parts that have been restored would be classed as 9.8. Like most trades, skills etc some things within the trade are more difficult to perfect than others. Maybe just maybe new techniqus have been applied which took years to master and this is why they are ending up with such high grades. So instead of some of the restoration work being 9.8 quality and some 7.5 and some 6.0 etc etc to achieve lets say an overall 8.0 the restorer has almost perfected his or her art.

 

Just food for thought. Not getting into the politics of should a grading company grade any EP comic above say a 9.0 or whatever just throwing some words in the mix :-)

 

 

[Doohickamabob]

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Ehh ... Please tell me you didnt type this?

[batman_fan]

I'm thinking of selling my house to buy some comics.

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Ehh ... Please tell me you didnt type this?

 

My thoughts exactly !

[MrBedrock]

 

Finally, I have seen plenty of extensively restored books with 9.4 CGC labels. Plenty. Plenty. As in many, many. A lot. Including the one I referenced above. and others I had sold personally which later reappeared in "better" CGC labels. So it's disingenuous to imply that this happens only with the "other" companies.

 

As for Biljo White, the guy was a force in creating fan interest, fanzines etc. I think it makes sense to value or expect others to value books from his collection if you also place increased value upon the many, many pedigrees which are out there and whose prior owners were just kids who happened to store many books together. If a 9.4 that was found along with other high grade is to be worth more than some exactly the same copy which was stored away by itself, why can't a book owned by one of comic fandom's founders be considered more than a book which is identical in every other way except that?

 

I have owned some of Biljo's books and I can say that it did seem that he stored them in ways that led to brittling of paper. But the ones that had covers (he didn't seem to mind having coverless books if the hero wasn't featured on the cover) had fairly well presenting covers. So I would not be surprised to learn this Tec 33 had nice eye appeal in the first place and just needed (a lot) of structural support. (though I don't know this precise book well enough to say that definitively)

 

Well presenting and brittle is perfect for a complete leafcasting job. Trim it down to size and voila - instant 9.8 Biljo White special.

The resto on these books from this particular restorer is nothing like leafcasting. For one thing leafcasting is completely removable and reversible. With a brittle book leafcasting only applies to areas where paper is missing. It can improve the pliability of the paper fibers but does not necessarily change the color of the paper. With these books the brittle paper is simply being bleached white and the color is applied directly over that. There is no way to tell where the original ends and the recreated begins.

 

Is there any indication what is causing the increased pliability, if not leafcasting?

As far as I know the restorer of these books does not use any techniques that improve the structure of a book. All of the work is chemical and color. His color technique is extraordinary. But he isn't sophisticated enough in his technique to use leafcasting.

[*matterus023*]

 

Finally, I have seen plenty of extensively restored books with 9.4 CGC labels. Plenty. Plenty. As in many, many. A lot. Including the one I referenced above. and others I had sold personally which later reappeared in "better" CGC labels. So it's disingenuous to imply that this happens only with the "other" companies.

 

As for Biljo White, the guy was a force in creating fan interest, fanzines etc. I think it makes sense to value or expect others to value books from his collection if you also place increased value upon the many, many pedigrees which are out there and whose prior owners were just kids who happened to store many books together. If a 9.4 that was found along with other high grade is to be worth more than some exactly the same copy which was stored away by itself, why can't a book owned by one of comic fandom's founders be considered more than a book which is identical in every other way except that?

 

I have owned some of Biljo's books and I can say that it did seem that he stored them in ways that led to brittling of paper. But the ones that had covers (he didn't seem to mind having coverless books if the hero wasn't featured on the cover) had fairly well presenting covers. So I would not be surprised to learn this Tec 33 had nice eye appeal in the first place and just needed (a lot) of structural support. (though I don't know this precise book well enough to say that definitively)

 

Well presenting and brittle is perfect for a complete leafcasting job. Trim it down to size and voila - instant 9.8 Biljo White special.

The resto on these books from this particular restorer is nothing like leafcasting. For one thing leafcasting is completely removable and reversible. With a brittle book leafcasting only applies to areas where paper is missing. It can improve the pliability of the paper fibers but does not necessarily change the color of the paper. With these books the brittle paper is simply being bleached white and the color is applied directly over that. There is no way to tell where the original ends and the recreated begins.

 

Is there any indication what is causing the increased pliability, if not leafcasting?

As far as I know the restorer of these books does not use any techniques that improve the structure of a book. All of the work is chemical and color. His color technique is extraordinary. But he isn't sophisticated enough in his technique to use leafcasting.

 

When you say as far as you know, does that actually mean you don't know at all or you have asked about their techniques, inspected their work etc?

 

I would personally think that you would be hard pushed to get a comic restored to 9.8 but not have the 'sophistacation' as you put, to incorporate leaf casting. What other technique would be used if pieces missing? Genuine question not trying to be funny

[MrBedrock]

 

Finally, I have seen plenty of extensively restored books with 9.4 CGC labels. Plenty. Plenty. As in many, many. A lot. Including the one I referenced above. and others I had sold personally which later reappeared in "better" CGC labels. So it's disingenuous to imply that this happens only with the "other" companies.

 

As for Biljo White, the guy was a force in creating fan interest, fanzines etc. I think it makes sense to value or expect others to value books from his collection if you also place increased value upon the many, many pedigrees which are out there and whose prior owners were just kids who happened to store many books together. If a 9.4 that was found along with other high grade is to be worth more than some exactly the same copy which was stored away by itself, why can't a book owned by one of comic fandom's founders be considered more than a book which is identical in every other way except that?

 

I have owned some of Biljo's books and I can say that it did seem that he stored them in ways that led to brittling of paper. But the ones that had covers (he didn't seem to mind having coverless books if the hero wasn't featured on the cover) had fairly well presenting covers. So I would not be surprised to learn this Tec 33 had nice eye appeal in the first place and just needed (a lot) of structural support. (though I don't know this precise book well enough to say that definitively)

 

Well presenting and brittle is perfect for a complete leafcasting job. Trim it down to size and voila - instant 9.8 Biljo White special.

The resto on these books from this particular restorer is nothing like leafcasting. For one thing leafcasting is completely removable and reversible. With a brittle book leafcasting only applies to areas where paper is missing. It can improve the pliability of the paper fibers but does not necessarily change the color of the paper. With these books the brittle paper is simply being bleached white and the color is applied directly over that. There is no way to tell where the original ends and the recreated begins.

 

Is there any indication what is causing the increased pliability, if not leafcasting?

As far as I know the restorer of these books does not use any techniques that improve the structure of a book. All of the work is chemical and color. His color technique is extraordinary. But he isn't sophisticated enough in his technique to use leafcasting.

 

When you say as far as you know, does that actually mean you don't know at all or you have asked about their techniques, inspected their work etc?

I've only seen some of the books through holders. I've talked to Matt Nelson about them. I've talked to Steve Borock about them. They both said the same thing. I have not talked with the restorer (Matt Meyers) or watched him do the work. He may be learning new stuff in the last month or two but he did not do any structural work on anything that I have seen.

[MrBedrock]

I would personally think that you would be hard pushed to get a comic restored to 9.8 but not have the 'sophistacation' as you put, to incorporate leaf casting. What other technique would be used if pieces missing? Genuine question not trying to be funny

There were piece fills long before leafcasting. These books may have piece fills done the old fashioned way (donor paper and all of that). From there the covers are colored extensively then they are layered with sizing to the point that any cover defects are hidden under the heavy new gloss. Bingo, an apparent defect free high grade restored cover.

[*matterus023*]

My gut feeling as never seen one to hand is that they are done to a very high standard and the test of time will proove it.

 

Will be fun to see how it develops and if new evidence (if you like) is given to how they manipulate the paper etc etc. When ever I see things like this I think that other restorers opinions are not the best source, as to them it is direct competition and many people are jealous and petty. Not saying the people you mentioned are just seen it happen many times before as sure we all have

 

Anyway late for this UK boy. Off to bed for me :-)

 

 

 

[AnkurJ]

I was sent pre resto pics of the book by the seller. It was already restored and looked like an 8.0. Basically they maxed it out by adding layers of CT and minor additional piece infilling.

[seanfingh]

 

Finally, I have seen plenty of extensively restored books with 9.4 CGC labels. Plenty. Plenty. As in many, many. A lot. Including the one I referenced above. and others I had sold personally which later reappeared in "better" CGC labels. So it's disingenuous to imply that this happens only with the "other" companies.

 

As for Biljo White, the guy was a force in creating fan interest, fanzines etc. I think it makes sense to value or expect others to value books from his collection if you also place increased value upon the many, many pedigrees which are out there and whose prior owners were just kids who happened to store many books together. If a 9.4 that was found along with other high grade is to be worth more than some exactly the same copy which was stored away by itself, why can't a book owned by one of comic fandom's founders be considered more than a book which is identical in every other way except that?

 

I have owned some of Biljo's books and I can say that it did seem that he stored them in ways that led to brittling of paper. But the ones that had covers (he didn't seem to mind having coverless books if the hero wasn't featured on the cover) had fairly well presenting covers. So I would not be surprised to learn this Tec 33 had nice eye appeal in the first place and just needed (a lot) of structural support. (though I don't know this precise book well enough to say that definitively)

 

Well presenting and brittle is perfect for a complete leafcasting job. Trim it down to size and voila - instant 9.8 Biljo White special.

The resto on these books from this particular restorer is nothing like leafcasting. For one thing leafcasting is completely removable and reversible. With a brittle book leafcasting only applies to areas where paper is missing. It can improve the pliability of the paper fibers but does not necessarily change the color of the paper. With these books the brittle paper is simply being bleached white and the color is applied directly over that. There is no way to tell where the original ends and the recreated begins.

 

Is there any indication what is causing the increased pliability, if not leafcasting?

As far as I know the restorer of these books does not use any techniques that improve the structure of a book. All of the work is chemical and color. His color technique is extraordinary. But he isn't sophisticated enough in his technique to use leafcasting.

 

Thank you, Richard. This is all fascinating. I really wonder what these books feel like and smell like.

[VintageComics]

 

Finally, I have seen plenty of extensively restored books with 9.4 CGC labels. Plenty. Plenty. As in many, many. A lot. Including the one I referenced above. and others I had sold personally which later reappeared in "better" CGC labels. So it's disingenuous to imply that this happens only with the "other" companies.

 

As for Biljo White, the guy was a force in creating fan interest, fanzines etc. I think it makes sense to value or expect others to value books from his collection if you also place increased value upon the many, many pedigrees which are out there and whose prior owners were just kids who happened to store many books together. If a 9.4 that was found along with other high grade is to be worth more than some exactly the same copy which was stored away by itself, why can't a book owned by one of comic fandom's founders be considered more than a book which is identical in every other way except that?

 

I have owned some of Biljo's books and I can say that it did seem that he stored them in ways that led to brittling of paper. But the ones that had covers (he didn't seem to mind having coverless books if the hero wasn't featured on the cover) had fairly well presenting covers. So I would not be surprised to learn this Tec 33 had nice eye appeal in the first place and just needed (a lot) of structural support. (though I don't know this precise book well enough to say that definitively)

 

Well presenting and brittle is perfect for a complete leafcasting job. Trim it down to size and voila - instant 9.8 Biljo White special.

The resto on these books from this particular restorer is nothing like leafcasting. For one thing leafcasting is completely removable and reversible. With a brittle book leafcasting only applies to areas where paper is missing. It can improve the pliability of the paper fibers but does not necessarily change the color of the paper. With these books the brittle paper is simply being bleached white and the color is applied directly over that. There is no way to tell where the original ends and the recreated begins.

 

Is there any indication what is causing the increased pliability, if not leafcasting?

 

My understanding is that bleaching itself makes brittle paper pliable again.

 

 

[Point Five]

From there the covers are colored extensively then they are layered with sizing to the point that any cover defects are hidden under the heavy new gloss. Bingo, an apparent defect free high grade restored cover.

That sounds a bit troubling. Do the covers feel thick to the touch?